Kentucky Snake Handler Bit During Church Service Refuses Medical Treatment and Dies

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I know some branches of Christianity are anti-science, but anti-medicine is too far.
 
graciew said:
Could you give me an example of misplaced faith in a more common everyday situation ? Just to understand it better .
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🤷 uhhmm… Lets see.

Err…

🤷

example #1
I will jump off this cliff without bringing safety equipment. I will not update my life insurance before doing this. I have faith In god, faith in his goodness. He will catch me."

cause: Thou shalt not put thy Lord your God to the test.
effect: Death.

example #2
I have faith that God will help me earn money to feed myself and my family. I have faith that a miracle will come.
-A moment later, the person saying this takes a nap. Afterward, this person watches TV all day long.-

cause: Sin of Sloth
effect: Poverty.

A number of passages within the old testament condemn idle hands. “They consume their own flesh.”

example #3
Parent: God shall protect my offspring."
-Parent refuses to give offspring advice on a variety of life issues and practical problems.-

cause: Lack of parental rearing.
effect: :bighanky:

These examples seem extreme, but I’ve heard stories.
 
Faxero said:
🤷 uhhmm… Lets see.

Err…

🤷

example #1
I will jump off this cliff without bringing safety equipment. I will not update my life insurance before doing this. I have faith In god, faith in his goodness. He will catch me."

cause: Thou shalt not put thy Lord your God to the test.
effect: Death.

example #2
I have faith that God will help me earn money to feed myself and my family. I have faith that a miracle will come.
-A moment later, the person saying this takes a nap. Afterward, this person watches TV all day long.-

cause: Sin of Sloth
effect: Poverty.

A number of passages within the old testament condemn idle hands. “They consume their own flesh.”

example #3
Parent: God shall protect my offspring."
-Parent refuses to give offspring advice on a variety of life issues and practical problems.-

cause: Lack of parental rearing.
effect: :bighanky:

These examples seem extreme, but I’ve heard stories.
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Thank you ! I get what it means now and thanks for that lot of thinking and examples for me !🙂
 
It’s sad to see some Catholics have such judgmental, condescending attitudes. All this talk of “idiots” and “Darwin awards” is surely anti-Christ. What makes these patronizing, overbearing Catholics believe they’re so superior? Part of the answer is ignorance. These snake-handling churches are actually extremely interesting. No one can explain why deaths in these churches are so rare, despite parishioners being regulary bitten by deadly snakes. And how are they able to drink jars of strychnine during mass and remain unscathed? In my estimation, this is the most extreme mystic order to be found anywhere within Christianity. These are extremely faithful people, and while possibly misguided, at the very least they’re far from boring.

Praying for the repose of John David Brock’s soul.

:gopray:
 
Exiled_Child said:
It’s sad to see some Catholics have such judgmental, condescending attitudes. All this talk of “idiots” and “Darwin awards” is surely anti-Christ. What makes these patronizing, overbearing Catholics believe they’re so superior? Part of the answer is ignorance. These snake-handling churches are actually extremely interesting. No one can explain why deaths in these churches are so rare, despite parishioners being regulary bitten by deadly snakes. And how are they able to drink jars of strychnine during mass and remain unscathed? In my estimation, this is the most extreme mystic order to be found anywhere within Christianity. These are extremely faithful people, and while possibly misguided, at the very least they’re far from boring.

Praying for the repose of John David Brock’s soul.

:gopray:
Click to expand...
Although I do think these snake handling churches are misguided, too, I also think there’s something interesting going on in them which the snarky comments are mocking in ignorance. I know there are some books about them which look worthwhile.

As a young girl growing up in the country and hiking in the hills and mountains a lot, I remember often being told, “Snakes are more afraid of you than you are of them”; meaning, if I saw one, I shouldn’t bother it, and I need not panic, but just leave it alone and it won’t hurt me. I’ve worked with horses for almost my whole life, and there again, I’ve learned that if a horse is acting aggressively towards a person, it’s usually because it senses a need to protect itself; while a person whose body language, muscle tone, and “energy” (I’m sorry if that sounds like New Age fluff, but after being around horses so long I’ve become pretty convinced they can sense things about us which we usually can’t) is non-threatening often will not trip off the horse’s fight or flight response. I wonder if it’s possible that the body language of these folks, whose faith would lead them to abandon the common human/snake fear reaction, is playing a role in keeping the snakes non-agggressive the majority of the time?
 
AbideWithMe said:
Although I do think these snake handling churches are misguided, too, I also think there’s something interesting going on in them which the snarky comments are mocking in ignorance. I know there are some books about them which look worthwhile.

As a young girl growing up in the country and hiking in the hills and mountains a lot, I remember often being told, “Snakes are more afraid of you than you are of them”; meaning, if I saw one, I shouldn’t bother it, and I need not panic, but just leave it alone and it won’t hurt me. I’ve worked with horses for almost my whole life, and there again, I’ve learned that if a horse is acting aggressively towards a person, it’s usually because it senses a need to protect itself; while a person whose body language, muscle tone, and “energy” (I’m sorry if that sounds like New Age fluff, but after being around horses so long I’ve become pretty convinced they can sense things about us which we usually can’t) is non-threatening often will not trip off the horse’s fight or flight response. I wonder if it’s possible that the body language of these folks, whose faith would lead them to abandon the common human/snake fear reaction, is playing a role in keeping the snakes non-agggressive the majority of the time?
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Likely. . . though snake-handling should be left to trained professionals. Just basing on religious faith to induce a non-threatening posture towards the snake thus rendering it human friendly is very risky and dangerous, as the death of the pastor proved. And when bitten, the poison does not discriminate and it could be lethal. Sure, there are people that able to develop natural immunity to snake bites and thus may not be harmed.

Snakes, like all other creatures, are made by God. The Bible said they were good though admittedly there some we would rather be without, like mosquitoes, for example.

Poisonous snakes are not the enemies. The poison is just their tool for livelihood, not much different than our fishing nets for fishing and guns for hunting. They do not hunt human beings; in most cases they are just too small to swallow human bodies. There are more snakes being killed by man than the other way round. They would be well pleased if humans just let them alone. Most snake bites happened by accident – like when they were frightened or being startled and their natural reflect caused them to strike.

But, well, there are Christians who want to prove a point.
 
AbideWithMe said:
As a young girl growing up in the country and hiking in the hills and mountains a lot, I remember often being told, “Snakes are more afraid of you than you are of them”; meaning, if I saw one, I shouldn’t bother it, and I need not panic, but just leave it alone and it won’t hurt me.
Click to expand...
That reminds me of my own experience. During a visit to my grandmother who lived in a farm then, we were alarmed by a scream from a cousin, much younger than me. On checking it out, we saw a cobra, probably about five feet long, slithering on the kitchen floor. It must have lost its way and maybe wanted to find a way out. The window was too high and it seemed to be quite frightened as it looked for an exit.

That was when I wanted to be a hero. Holding a broom stick, I contemplated I could bring it down with a strike. As I approached it, it raised up its head, its back to the kitchen cabinet, to about two feet high.

That was when my aunt whispered briskly, “Do not strike it. Let it be.” I put the stick down and watched the cobra smoothly slided through the opened door and out of the house. In retrospect, how close I was to danger then, for the cobra was about to strike when it raised its head. Obviously it just wanted to defend itself but seeing that we meant no harm, it went out of the house peacefully.
 
Reuben_J said:
Likely. . . though snake-handling should be left to trained professionals. Just basing on religious faith to induce a non-threatening posture towards the snake thus rendering it human friendly is very risky and dangerous, as the death of the pastor proved. And when bitten, the poison does not discriminate and it could be lethal. Sure, there are people that able to develop natural immunity to snake bites and thus may not be harmed.

Snakes, like all other creatures, are made by God. The Bible said they were good though admittedly there some we would rather be without, like mosquitoes, for example.

Poisonous snakes are not the enemies. The poison is just their tool for livelihood, not much different than our fishing nets for fishing and guns for hunting. They do not hunt human beings; in most cases they are just too small to swallow human bodies. There are more snakes being killed by man than the other way round. They would be well pleased if humans just let them alone. Most snake bites happened by accident – like when they were frightened or being startled and their natural reflect caused them to strike.

But, well, there are Christians who want to prove a point.
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I agree, Reuben, in that I don’t think the snake handling is a good thing. I’m just basically saying that I don’t think the handlers are “Darwin Award” winners and idiots, as a few earlier posters seemed to be saying. In a way, I do wonder if for some of them there’s a kind of longing for the innocence --literal innocence—of Eden, or God’s holy mountain (the Peaceable Kingdom, the lion and the lamb laying down together in Isaiah: “They shall neither harm nor destroy on all My holy mountain”) at play. I don’t know. Some may be testing God, some may be power tripping, but some may have a innocent, child-like longing at work, though misguided in expression in this case. I’m just wondering out loud.:o
 
Reuben_J said:
That reminds me of my own experience. During a visit to my grandmother who lived in a farm then, we were alarmed by a scream from a cousin, much younger than me. On checking it out, we saw a cobra, probably about five feet long, slithering on the kitchen floor. It must have lost its way and maybe wanted to find a way out. The window was too high and it seemed to be quite frightened as it looked for an exit.

That was when I wanted to be a hero. Holding a broom stick, I contemplated I could bring it down with a strike. As I approached it, it raised up its head, its back to the kitchen cabinet, to about two feet high.

That was when my aunt whispered briskly, “Do not strike it. Let it be.” I put the stick down and watched the cobra smoothly slided through the opened door and out of the house. In retrospect, how close I was to danger then, for the cobra was about to strike when it raised its head. Obviously it just wanted to defend itself but seeing that we meant no harm, it went out of the house peacefully.
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Wow, that would be a bit too close for comfort for me! Sleeping snakes sunning themselves on mountain rocks is more within my comfort zone.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Although I do think these snake handling churches are misguided, too, I also think there’s something interesting going on in them which the snarky comments are mocking in ignorance. I know there are some books about them which look worthwhile.

As a young girl growing up in the country and hiking in the hills and mountains a lot, I remember often being told, “Snakes are more afraid of you than you are of them”; meaning, if I saw one, I shouldn’t bother it, and I need not panic, but just leave it alone and it won’t hurt me. I’ve worked with horses for almost my whole life, and there again, I’ve learned that if a horse is acting aggressively towards a person, it’s usually because it senses a need to protect itself; while a person whose body language, muscle tone, and “energy” (I’m sorry if that sounds like New Age fluff, but after being around horses so long I’ve become pretty convinced they can sense things about us which we usually can’t) is non-threatening often will not trip off the horse’s fight or flight response. I wonder if it’s possible that the body language of these folks, whose faith would lead them to abandon the common human/snake fear reaction, is playing a role in keeping the snakes non-agggressive the majority of the time?
Click to expand...
Oh, I absolutely agree. That’s why I characterized snake-handlers as a mystic order. I truly believe that. Their prayer is so heartfelt and fervent, that I’m guessing it brings them into some kind of deep, trance-like state, which then allows them to safely handle the snakes without the snakes sensing a dangerous predator, thus drastically minimizing attacks. That’s my theory, at any rate. I mean, the snakes do bite them occasionally, but it’s nowhere remotely near as often as they normally would. I’ve seen photos of parishioners holding these enormous copperheads that would terrify anyone to see in nature, and they just look as relaxed as can be. It’s uncanny. And you know, in those churches they also routinely guzzle deadly quantities of strychnine and other poisons during the course of their services, and they somehow don’t get sick or die from it. I don’t know how that can be explained.🤷 By all accounts these are just solid, ordinary, upstanding, everyday people from the community, too. They’re not lunatic cultists or something, they’re devoted Christians.

Also, what you say about horses isn’t new-agey at all. I love horses, too, but I don’t have much experience with them, aside from maybe a couple dozen times in childhood. They’re ability to perceive people’s energy and read body language and facial micro-expressions is off the charts.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans
 
Exiled_Child said:
Oh, I absolutely agree. That’s why I characterized snake-handlers as a mystic order. I truly believe that. Their prayer is so heartfelt and fervent, that I’m guessing it brings them into some kind of deep, trance-like state, which then allows them to safely handle the snakes without the snakes sensing a dangerous predator, thus drastically minimizing attacks. That’s my theory, at any rate. I mean, the snakes do bite them occasionally, but it’s nowhere remotely near as often as they normally would. I’ve seen photos of parishioners holding these enormous copperheads that would terrify anyone to see in nature, and they just look as relaxed as can be. It’s uncanny. And you know, in those churches they also routinely guzzle deadly quantities of strychnine and other poisons during the course of their services, and they somehow don’t get sick or die from it. By all accounts these are just solid, ordinary, upstanding, everyday people from the community, too. They’re not lunatic cultists or something, they’re devoted Christians.

Also, what you say about horses isn’t new-agey at all. I love horses, too, but I don’t have much experience with them, aside from maybe a couple dozen times in childhood. They’re ability to perceive people’s energy and read body language and facial micro-expressions is off the charts.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clever_Hans
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Yes, the story of Clever Hans is a fascinating account! AbideWithMe is actually one of my horses who is so uncannily perceptive of human intentions that it’s humbling.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Yes, the story of Clever Hans is a fascinating account! AbideWithMe is actually one of my horses who is so uncannily perceptive of human intentions that it’s humbling.
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Oh, that’s a cool name for a horse! I can actually hear a frantic racetrack announcer saying that name.

Here, have a Jonathan Richman song. (This is one of his best solo numbers.)

youtube.com/watch?v=ysaBHTwazjk
 
Exiled_Child said:
It’s sad to see some Catholics have such judgmental, condescending attitudes. All this talk of “idiots” and “Darwin awards” is surely anti-Christ. What makes these patronizing, overbearing Catholics believe they’re so superior? Part of the answer is ignorance. These snake-handling churches are actually extremely interesting. No one can explain why deaths in these churches are so rare, despite parishioners being regulary bitten by deadly snakes. And how are they able to drink jars of strychnine during mass and remain unscathed? In my estimation, this is the most extreme mystic order to be found anywhere within Christianity. These are extremely faithful people, and while possibly misguided, at the very least they’re far from boring.

Praying for the repose of John David Brock’s soul.

:gopray:
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No mocking from me. I asked Itwin a very logical question and he gave me a mature response. A response I actually knew he would give. I don’t see anyone here doing what you are claiming.
 
KendraDZ1902 said:
I didn’t say that he didn’t need prayers. He was still an idiot.
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Hi KendraDZ

I think that we are all idiots, and all need mercy and prayers rather than judgment.

we don’t know what was going on emotionally, chemically, etc. We don’t know if he had mental or emotional illness, do we?

Peace,

Pat
 
patricius79 said:
Hi KendraDZ

I think that we are all idiots, and all need mercy and prayers rather than judgment.

we don’t know what was going on emotionally, chemically, etc. We don’t know if he had mental or emotional illness, do we?

Peace,

Pat
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Oh good grief. :rolleyes: I didn’t say he needed to go to Hell. We judge actions all the time. I decided a long time ago that playing with poisonous animals is a no-no and that if I was accidentally bitten/stung my such an animal, that seeking God given medical treatment is the correct action to take.
No one is changing my mind on this, ever. 🤷
 
Exiled_Child said:
Oh, that’s a cool name for a horse! I can actually hear a frantic racetrack announcer saying that name.

Here, have a Jonathan Richman song. (This is one of his best solo numbers.)

youtube.com/watch?v=ysaBHTwazjk
Click to expand...
Lol, that song is funny and all too true.

Maybe you were listening to New Zealand’s Travis Cup this past spring when the New Zealand Thoroughbred made, Abidewithme, actually did win that major race?😃 IIRC, she won on Anzac Day, on which her namesake hymn is sung. There was also an American race horse named Abide With Me racing a few decades ago.
 
KendraDZ1902 said:
Oh good grief. :rolleyes: I didn’t say he needed to go to Hell. We judge actions all the time. I decided a long time ago that playing with poisonous animals is a no-no and that if I was accidentally bitten/stung my such an animal, that seeking God given medical treatment is the correct action to take.
No one is changing my mind on this, ever. 🤷
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Hi KendraDZ,

Thank you.

Yes, I think we judge actions all the time. And I think that is good. I think the problem is when we call people idiots, especially just after they have died.

Peace,

Pat
 
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