Key of David

[Contrabass101]

I heard Scott Hahn use this passage as an apology for the papacy, but I would like some clarification…
Isiah 22:

The Lord who commands armies told me this: “Certainly this sin will not be forgiven as long as you live," says the sovereign master, the Lord who commands armies.
This is what the sovereign master, the Lord who commands armies, says:
“Go visit this administrator, Shebna, who supervises the palace, …and tell him:

The other guy is a type of Peter, but who is this Shebna? Israel? The levitic priests?

…‘What right do you have to be here? What relatives do you have buried here?
Why do you chisel out a tomb for yourself here?
He chisels out his burial site in an elevated place,
he carves out his tomb on a cliff.
Look, the Lord will throw you far away, you mere man!
He will wrap you up tightly.
He will wind you up tightly into a ball
and throw you into a wide, open land.
There you will die,
and there with you will be your impressive chariots,
which bring disgrace to the house of your master.
I will remove you from your office;
you will be thrown down from your position.

22:20 “At that time I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah. I will put your robe on him, tie your belt around him, and transfer your authority to him. He will become a protector of the residents of Jerusalem and of the people of Judah.I will place the key to the house of David on his shoulder. When he opens the door, no one can close it; when he closes the door, no one can open it.

How is this not Jesus, when we consider the verses from Revelation?

I will fasten him like a peg into a solid place; he will bring honor and respect to his father’s family. His father’s family will gain increasing prominence because of him, including the offspring and the offshoots. All the small containers, including the bowls and all the jars will hang from this peg.’

22:25 “At that time,” says the Lord who commands armies, “the peg fastened into a solid place will come loose. It will be cut off and fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut off.” Indeed, the Lord has spoken.

The last part here is what troubles me the most. If Peter is indeed the peg on which all the jars and bowls will hang from, what is the meaning of verse 25? Peter will be cut loose?

I find the Davidic key a strong argument for the papacy, considering that Shebna was actually administering all that was David’s. So when Christ gives Peter the key, he puts him in charge of the whole Church. But then what is this thing about being cut loose? Does it mean that the papacy fails? That Eliakim is no better than his predecessor, Shebna, and thus fall?

• CB

 

[Nita]

I think the reason that verse is used, is to show that the power of the keys was a recognized office in the Jewish culture. An ongoing position that could be passed on to others, not restricted only to the first person it was bestowed on. It was a “powerful” position in the sense that the person exercised authoritative control in the king’s palace.

I think the correlations to be made are more general:
King = Jesus
Key holder office = Papacy
King’s palace = Church

Thus, when the apostles heard Jesus give Peter the keys, they recognized what was taking place. (That Peter was being appointed to exercise overall control in Our Lord’s palace/church - “on this Rock I will build My Church…” That the position was not limited to Peter’s lifetime but could be handed on to another. However, there was only one person at a time who had charge of the keys.

I’m not sure more is meant to be read into the comparison, altho’ I know I used to. I also recall being uneasy about verses 24 & 25. Used to wonder if it was a prophecy concerning end times - that something would happen with the papacy, perhaps a failure to fill the office for some reason. Or else, a failure to legislate properly in matters concerning vessels, music, etc. — non-doctrinal matters. Pure speculation however, and nothing elsewhere that definitely confirms such an interpretation.

Nita

 

[NotWorthy]

I think the Isaiah prophecy is typical of all Typologies. In the OT, they are incomplete, but they are made complete in Christ. In Isaiah, Shebna’s peg will fall.

But in Matthew, "the Gates of Hell will not prevail, and against this Chruch / Kingdom.

 

[Newbie2]

The “Key of David” was mentioned in one of our hymms this morning.

Sorry, but I couldn’t help wondering if it was the key of David sharp of flat.

Otherwise, I have nothing useful to contribute to this thread.

 

[dacoobob]

Reading the whole passage (go Biblia Clerus!), why can’t the peg in v25 be Shebna, the old peg? It says “at that time,” which sounds to me like it’s referring to the time he’s just been talking about-- i.e., the time when Shebna will be replaced by Eliakim.

PS- I think it’s the key of David sharp major.

 

[mark_a]

PS- I think it’s the key of David sharp major.

I agree since a major is a happier sound.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I don’t find this argument of any value at all.

 

[epostle]

The last part here is what troubles me the most. If Peter is indeed the peg on which all the jars and bowls will hang from, what is the meaning of verse 25? Peter will be cut loose?

Verse 23 Eliakim forshadows Peter,
verse 25 refers to Shebna who, on that day, loses his authority. and could forshadow the transfer of the Seat of Moses from the Jews (who lost their “peg that was fastened in a sure place… will give way…” to Jesus’ established Church.

Shebna bad.

Eliakim good.

 

[epostle]

Isa. 22: 19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station. 20 In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, 21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. 22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. 23 And I will fasten him like a peg in a secure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house. 24 And they will hang on him the whole weight of his father’s house, the offspring and issue, every small vessel, from the cups to all the flagons.
25 In that day, says the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a sure place will give way; and it will be cut down and fall, and the burden that was upon it will be cut off, for the LORD has spoken."

Isa. 22:19 - Shebna is described as having an “office” and a “station.” An office, in order for it to be an office, has successors. In order for an earthly kingdom to last, a succession of representatives is required.
This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Jesus our King is in heaven, but He has appointed a chief steward over His household with a plan for a succession of representatives.

. 20: In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah,

Isa. 22:20 - in the old Davidic kingdom, Eliakim succeeds Shebna as the chief steward of the household of God. The kingdom employs a mechanism of dynastic succession. King David was dead for centuries, but his kingdom is preserved through a succession of representatives.

21: and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.

Isa. 22:21 - Eliakim is called “father” or “papa” of God’s people. The word Pope used by Catholics to describe the chief steward of the earthly kingdom simply means papa or father in Italian. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church “Pope.” The Pope is the father of God’s people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ’s representative on earth.(“POPE” IN THE BIBLE!! )

 

[epostle]

22: And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Isa. 22:22 - we see that the keys of the kingdom pass from Shebna to Eliakim. Thus, the keys are used not only as a symbol of authority, but also to facilitate succession. The keys of Christ’s kingdom have passed from Peter to Linus all the way to our current Pope with an unbroken lineage for almost 2,000 years.

23: And I will fasten him like a peg (Nail) in a sure place, and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus’ “keys” undeniably represent authority. By using the word “keys,” Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Revelation 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.

Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This “binding and loosing” authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish “halakah,” or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 - Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

23: And I will fasten him like a peg (Nail) in a sure place, **and he will become a throne of honor **to his father’s house.

Matthew 19 [27] Then Peter said in reply, “Lo, we have left everything and followed you. What then shall we have?”
[28] Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious** throne**, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The authority of Jesus and the authority of the Apostles is one and same authority, in heaven and on earth.

 

[Pwrlftr]

epostle sez:

epostle:

Jer. 33:17 - Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history

Does the RCC really see this as a prophecy about the papacy?

Do any of the ECF’s see it this way?

 

[dacoobob]

epostle sez:

Does the RCC really see this as a prophecy about the papacy?

Do any of the ECF’s see it this way?

I doubt it, since David’s throne was vacant for long stretches in the OT, making it a pretty weak argument…

 

[epostle]

Jer. 33: [14] "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.
[15] In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
[16] In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell securely. And this is the name by which it will be called: `The LORD is our righteousness.’
[17] “For thus says the LORD: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel,
[18] and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn cereal offerings, and to make sacrifices for ever.”

Does the RCC really see this as a prophecy about the papacy?

Jeremiah does.
The ancient rabbis knew that eventually all burnt offerings would cease, but the Toda sacrifice would last for ever. Verse 18 makes a distinction between burnt offerings and perpetual sacrifices by the word “and”. This Toda sacrifice that lasts forever cannot be done without a valid priest, and it certainly cannot be done by Jews who lost all records of their priestly lineage in 70 A.D. This prophecy supports Christ as the “man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel” and it also supports the papacy as a subordinate earthly ruler by referring to the Levitical priests, who were subordinate to David. Jesus’ use of the word “throne(s)” in Matthew 19:28 sheds some light on the mystery of how God wants his Church to be run after his Ascension. The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.

Do any of the ECF’s see it this way?

It would be a stretch to dig up an ECF who referenced this one verse, and no doctrine of the Church hinges on one verse of scripture.

I doubt it, since David’s throne was vacant for long stretches in the OT, making it a pretty weak argument…

Vacancy has no bearing on succession. Imposters cannot contaminate a line of succession. The legitimate successor succeeds the previous legitimate holder of the office, regardless of time, or illegitimate leaders.

 

[NotWorthy]

epostle sez:

Does the RCC really see this as a prophecy about the papacy?

Do any of the ECF’s see it this way?

I think the Church sees this as a Type for the Papacy, but not necessarily a prophecy. Just as Moses was a Type of Jesus, but not a prophecy of Jesus.

Again, the OT Type is incomplete, but it is fulfilled in the NT.

 

[Pwrlftr]

I think the Church sees this as a Type for the Papacy, but not necessarily a prophecy. Just as Moses was a Type of Jesus, but not a prophecy of Jesus.

Again, the OT Type is incomplete, but it is fulfilled in the NT.

I’ve always seen this as a Messianic prophecy. Do you know of any ECF’s that see the papacy in this verse?

 

[vadermanu89]

I think this might be an indirect teaching…

St. Ephrem of Syria (fourth century):

Therefore the former Steward and the last Treasurer handed on the keys of the priesthood and prophecy to him who had authority over the treasury of both of these. Because of this his Father gave him the Spirit without measure, because all the measures of the Spirit are under his hand. And our Lord, to show that he had received the keys from the former steward, said to Simon: To thee will I give the keys of the gates. But how could he give them to another unless he had received them from another? THe keys, therefore, which he received from Simeon the priest, he gave to ‘Simeon’ the Apostle, so that even if the Nation would not listen to the former Simeon, the Nations should listen to the other ‘Simeon.”

 

[NotWorthy]

I’ve always seen this as a Messianic prophecy. Do you know of any ECF’s that see the papacy in this verse?

First of all, how do you see this as Messianic?

Eliakim is to rule only in the King’s absence. That would point toward someone in the Christian era who has authority only until the King returns in triumph (Christ’s Second Coming).

But I’ll look for some commentary on this passage.

 

[Pwrlftr]

First of all, how do you see this as Messianic?

Eliakim is to rule only in the King’s absence. That would point toward someone in the Christian era who has authority only until the King returns in triumph (Christ’s Second Coming).

But I’ll look for some commentary on this passage.

Jer 33:17 is what we are talking about right?

 

[vadermanu89]

Jer 33:17 is what we are talking about right?

No, its about this -

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

 

[NotWorthy]

Jer 33:17 is what we are talking about right?

I’m sorry, I thought we were talking about Isiah. To your point, of course Jeremiah 33:17 is messianic in nature.

Isaiah 22 is a Type for this same kingdom, but instead of talking about the King of the Kingdom, it is a Type for the Prime Minister of the Kingdom - the one in authority until the King Returns!

Maranatha!!! (Come, Lord Jesus!)