Key vs keys

[lyrikal]

For the record, since this person has identified himself… I asked this person then who these other Orthodox were and he said it was just me.

No, I NEVER said it was just you. You obviously have a problem with reading and/or understanding English.

I said that I don’t need to give you names because it’s not relevant for me to prove who these people are. I can give you a list of names but what would that matter? You wouldn’t know these people anyway.

 

[lyrikal]

I’d like to get back to this thing where people ignore that David is the prefigurement of Jesus, not Peter

Then stop misrepresenting what I have previously said and I’ll GLADLY leave you be. In fact, I’d love it if you just stopped mentioning my posts all together because you obviously have a way of interpreting my words incorrectly. And that’s putting it in a very nice way.

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

I’d like to get back to this thing where people ignore that David is the prefigurement of Jesus, not Peter

Rather than just more excuses for not discussing this…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Who said David is a prefigurement of Peter? I don’t recall anyone making that link. Hezekiah, son of David, gave the key of the house of David to Eliakim, and Jesus, son of God, son of David, gave the keys of His kingdom to Peter. That’s the connection, the analogy, the symbol of authority being given from the king to the prime minister. Eliakim is the prime minister under king Hezekiah, as Peter is prime minister under Jesus. That’s the context. And key / keys is an analogy. There are no real keys. Key / keys are a symbol of that authority given to another from the one who the authority originates from. The authority given to Eliakim comes from King Hezekiah, just as the authority given to Peter , comes from Jesus, symbolized by the key /keys Jesus gives to Peter. Because Our Lord’s kingdom will last forever, those keys of authority, are backed up by Jesus to Peter’s successors.

Perfect Steve. Its sad whey some ignore the obvious. In this we have David giving the key to his son the King, who then gives it to his prime minister. In Matthew we see the son of David; Christ who is the King of Kings, giving the KEYS to His prime minister Peter. And of course Christ would give Peter Keys not Key because Christ is King of Heaven and Earth and because his Church is both in Heaven and on Earth. Therefore what he (Peter) binds on earth will be bound in Heaven and what he loosens on earth will be lossend in Heaven.

 

[Montalban]

Perfect Steve. Its sad whey some ignore the obvious. In this we have David giving the key to his son the King, who then gives it to his prime minister. In Matthew we see the son of David; Christ who is the King of Kings, giving the KEYS to His prime minister Peter. And of course Christ would give Peter Keys not Key because Christ is King of Heaven and Earth and because his Church is both in Heaven and on Earth. Therefore what he (Peter) binds on earth will be bound in Heaven and what he loosens on earth will be lossend in Heaven.

I gave a rebuttal of this.

If David is Christ and David is King then handing the keys to another king who hands them to a Prime Minister has no connection with what happened with Peter

Anyway, I look forward to your evidence FROM THE CHURCH, as opposed to your own speculation

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

I have been reading some of Stephen K Ray’s book on papal primacy.

He draws a link between the single key given to David (in Isaiah) and the many keys given to Peter (in Matthew).

Which Church Fathers commented on this also?

I’d even take people submitting the ‘teaching of the church’ on this.

 

[steve_b]

Your post ignored mine. I drew a DIRECT link between Isaiah and Revelations. The bible does that for us. It doesn’t do the same between Isaiah and Matthew.

Leaving aside the fact your post ignored that you post is now adding invention. So Eliakim is a prefigurement of Peter? That’s the first I’ve ever heard of that too.

Do you have any evidence for this either?

You’re also stretching events.

You have David getting the keys, then passing them to a King, who then passes them onto a Prime Minister

compared to

Jesus giving the keys to Peter

One has Peter receiving the keys directly and passing them on to other popes (presumably) Not Peter passing them onto another king (as David did) who then delegates the keys to a lesser person, a Prime Minister

It just doesn’t work as a parallel.

One has

**God **keys to king-> King keys to Prime Minister → Prime Minister (supposedly the prefigurement of Peter)

with

God keys to → Peter (as Prime Minister)

EVEN IF you have

God as the new king keys to → Peter (as Prime Minister) it won’t work, because David, as a prefigurement of Jesus in your scheme doesn’t hand them on to a Prime Minister but ANOTHER KING

Also, the key/keys have different ‘functions’. The keys of Peter are about binding and loosing in heaven

As noted if you want to talk about the key opening something that’s already shown in the post yours ignores

What your post is doing is drawing in connections never made

Do you understand what an analogy is when making logical comparisons?

analogy is used as a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

iow,

similar ≠ exact
certain respect ≠ evety respect

But there are certain similarities and certain respects, between Persons places and things that make an analogy work. It goes without saying one needs to be reasonably accurate with similarities to make the analogy work

Besides, we’re not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Jesus gave Peter the keys. And those keys have been passed on to his successors, the bishops of Rome, ever since Peter died in Rome.

 

[panevino]

Over the past few years st Ambrose has probably become my favorite saint along with st Augustine and his mother st Monica.

St Ambrose helped convert st Augustine.
St simplicanus was older than both and taught them both.

St Ambrose wrote the following which , I think, draws from isa22:15-23

ST. AMBROSE
EXPOSITION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
BOOK III.CHAPTER XII.100. How, then, can He not have in His power that which He gives, saying: “To thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven”?(5) See the gulf between [the one and the other]. The servant opens, the Lord bestows; the One through Himself, the other through Christ; the minister receives the keys, the Lord appoints powers: the one is the right of a giver, the other the duty of a steward.

Isaiah 22:15
Thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Go, get thee unto this treasurer, even unto Shebna, which is over the house, and say,
…21
And I will clothe him with thy robe,
and strengthen him with thy girdle,
and I will commit thy government into his hand:
and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
and to the house of Judah.
22
And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder;
so he shall open, and none shall shut;
and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Ambrose wrote more relevant , which ill try to dig up

 

[panevino]

I’d like to get back to this thing where people ignore that David is the prefigurement of Jesus, not Peter

I don’t think anyone suggested it. Could be wrong lots of posts
Does below help?

God - King / steward

God bestows stewardship of king Hezekiah to eliakim (key symbol of authority)
Isa36:3, 22:20

Mat16
Jesus(King and God)/Peter

 

[utunumsint]

Here is another nice quote from Ephraim the Syrian in a homily on the Lord:

1. Then Mary received her firstborn and went forth. He was outwardly wrapped in swaddling clothes, but secretly He was clothed with prophecy and priesthood. Whatsoever then was handed down from Moses, was received from Simeon, but continued and was possessed by the Lord of both. So then the steward first, and the treasurer lastly, handed over the keys of priesthood and prophecy to Him who has authority over the treasurer of them both. Therefore, His Father gave Him the spirit not by measure, John 3:34 because all measures of the spirit are under his hand. And that our Lord might show that He received the keys from the former stewards, He said to Simeon: To you I will give the keys of the doors. Matthew 16:19 But how should He have given them to another, had He not received them from another? So, then, the keys which He had received from Simeon the priest, them He gave to another Simeon the Apostle; that even though the People had not hearkened to the former Simeon, the Gentiles might hearken to the latter Simeon.

newadvent.org/fathers/3706.htm

It does not explicitly mention Isaiah 22, but does bring in the concept of the steward.

God bless,
Ut