Khalfan : corruption

[Rbt_Southwell]

The Bible (as understood by the Catholic Church: the original Christians) is NOT a compilation as you allege.

Nor are Christians “People of the Book.”

Jesus is the Word, although many recent non-denominational offshoots from mainstream Protestantism believe WITH NO TRADITIONAL OR BIBLICAL JUSTIFICATION that to be a good Christian is to interpret Scripture personally.

Similar to what Moslems do with that Syrio-Aramaic Lectionary which was given its current interpretation by the Caliuph AFTER the death of Mohammed: what you call the Koran.

Please remeber, you don’t have even two similar versions of Bible to say, it is the accurate copy.

Please remember that the Cairo manuscript (the oldest known) of your Koran is without its diacritical marks and subject to VARIOUS and CONTRADICTORY interpretations.

Each and every book in the Bible is assumed of writers except the 14/27 books of NT. We still find clear evidences for addition and modification throughout the Bible.

Again, you’re blowing smoke. Catholic Tradition has NEVER put the letter by letter iota by iota emphasis on the Word of God. Jesus walked among men, in real time.

He did organize tribes into warring armies. He did not marry many women and girls. He did not SYNTHESIZE tribal and Christian (with Jewish influences) beliefs as was done by Mohammed.

You have already confirmed 4 books as apocrypha which was inspired and undoubtful in the first Bible. Process of throwing out chapters and verses are still going on.

This is very bizarre, Khalfan, I have NO idea where you got these idiotic statements. And of course, neither do you.

So, unless and until you have a TRUE copy of scripture as it was originally written, which your church already proved impossible, Quran’s claim of corrupting the scripture will live forever.

So, unless you can prove that the original Koran written on leaves and stones and palm fronds and whatnot CORRELATES EXACTLY to what the Caliph translated AFTER Mohammed’s death then we might be able to believe the Koran’s “claim” that it is the word of God.

Which, of course, it is not.

Robert

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

InJesus
First of all, there are 2 facts, the first one is that the Quran doesn’t agree with the Bible in many issues, the second one is that there is a lot of evidence is that your Bible has many corruptions in it (this needs another thread), these 2 facts are a base that I will build on the conclusion that the Quran doesn’t acknowledge your Bible, as for the corruption of the Bible, there are 2 possibilities.
The first possibility is that the Torah and the Gospel are not the Bible you have, but it can be hidden or left or even disappeared, this is on the base if we considered what Ibn Abbas and Wahb said, especially that I see that Wahb who knew much about the Torah gave many quotes that are not present in the Bible, and the quote from the Quran which you said it is in the Talmud, and another hadith also which quotes from the Torah what I didn’t see in the Bible, so it’s very clear that if Wahb’s conclusion was right, then God was talking about the real Torah, as for your question how did it disappear or when? First, I didn’t say that this means that the Bible was taken over the Torah after Muhammad (Peace be upon him) only, but it’s very clear that they left the Torah and followed that book even before Muhammad (Peace be upon him), and they could have taken also some true verses from the Bible after Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came( and this can happen as some church fathers blamed the jews on taking scriptures from their book, and I have evidence for that), as for the real Torah, it could have been in few manuscripts and kept on decreasing gradually, and there may be some hidden copies as the Yemeni rabbi claims, you say what is his proof? He tells that he has a copy refers to about 500 yrs ago, you’ll say, it’s not too old, well it may be the case that it was copied from an older manuscript, and what makes me think that he is right, is that other Muslim scholars and early Muslims who tell things in the Torah which are not present in the Bible now. And as for the tests which some Jews and Christians , you can see what Abdullah Ibn Sailam , and Salman of Persia said in these 2 links.

The other possibility is that the Torah (not the Gospel, as we are sure that these Gospels are not of Issa(Peace be upon him), although it can contain some real quotes of him) had really the origins of that Pentateuch, but it was subjected to different interpolations, and this could be true, since what Ibn Abbas said in Bukhari about not corrupting the Torah, is not clear in referring to him, but it could have been a commentary from Bukhari himself, and we still have the hadith of Ibn Abbas that they added in God’s book, and the hadith of Mu’awiyah about Ka’b, Wahb may also be mistaken. What may also support this claim is that when Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said when he saw a copy of the Torah with Omar, he blamed him and said: Are you doubting? I got it (the message) for you pure and white? This means that other than what the Prophet (Peace be upon him) came is neither pure nor white, this hadith was said to be weak by some Muslim scholars, but it has many other witnesses which can make it reach to be good as Sheikh Al Albany said.

Either one of the 2 possibilities is true, there is one result, one end, based on the 2 facts i stated in the beginning.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

InJesus

First of all, there are 2 facts, the first one is that the Quran doesn’t agree with the Bible in many issues, the second one is that there is a lot of evidence is that your Bible has many corruptions in it (this needs another thread), these 2 facts are a base that I will build on the conclusion that the Quran doesn’t acknowledge your Bible, as for the corruption of the Bible, there are 2 possibilities.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Well, Ibn, when Syrio-Aramaic diacritical marks are added to the Cairo manuscript, we get a clearer understanding of how much the Koran (originally a Syriac word meaning ‘Lectionary’) owes to the Catholic (that is, Christian) Bible.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Further more, what you will be trying to prove is Bible is the compilation of Torah, Zaboor and Injeel and it is preserved till now as it was revealed. … So, unless and until you have a TRUE copy of scripture as it was originally written, which your church already proved impossible, Quran’s claim of corrupting the scripture will live forever.

The Dead Sea Scrolls have OT writtings that confirm their authenticity which contradict the Quran. A word in Hebrew might have a different nuance to a translated word, but the overall meaning and the texts are fully preserved, just as that applies to all NT Scripture with respect to Aramaic, Greek, Latin…English translations.

The Qurans claim died with its first unsubstantiated utterance which is why it is rejected by rational thinking people regardless of personal belief that are not threatened with death if they disagree with you.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

In other words “I won’t answer your question BUT you should answer mine!”

Actually I was asking that proof of the assertions of the Quran/hadith that the Christians changed the Bible.

I heard this repeated over and over, without any example being given, or a date of when this supposed corruption happened.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Rbt Southwell;2603278:

What is that syrio aramaic marks added Cairo manuscript? What are you talking about?

Who told you that lie?Look at the site in my signature.

Your own tradition. It goes in great deal of detail in the supposed collection by Uthman 40 years later. Why so much trouble if the book already existed?

I don’t know, but was the original post refering to the documents found in the mosque of Sana? (the texts don’t match exactly to the present text).

 

[Isa_Almisry]

InJesus
First of all, there are 2 facts, the first one is that the Quran doesn’t agree with the Bible in many issues, the second one is that there is a lot of evidence is that your Bible has many corruptions in it (this needs another thread), these 2 facts are a base that I will build on the conclusion that the Quran doesn’t acknowledge your Bible, as for the corruption of the Bible, there are 2 possibilities.
The first possibility is that the Torah and the Gospel are not the Bible you have, but it can be hidden or left or even disappeared, this is on the base if we considered what Ibn Abbas and Wahb said, especially that I see that Wahb who knew much about the Torah gave many quotes that are not present in the Bible, and the quote from the Quran which you said it is in the Talmud, and another hadith also which quotes from the Torah what I didn’t see in the Bible, so it’s very clear that if Wahb’s conclusion was right, then God was talking about the real Torah, as for your question how did it disappear or when? First, I didn’t say that this means that the Bible was taken over the Torah after Muhammad (Peace be upon him) only, but it’s very clear that they left the Torah and followed that book even before Muhammad (Peace be upon him), and they could have taken also some true verses from the Bible after Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came( and this can happen as some church fathers blamed the jews on taking scriptures from their book, and I have evidence for that), as for the real Torah, it could have been in few manuscripts and kept on decreasing gradually, and there may be some hidden copies as the Yemeni rabbi claims, you say what is his proof? He tells that he has a copy refers to about 500 yrs ago, you’ll say, it’s not too old, well it may be the case that it was copied from an older manuscript, and what makes me think that he is right, is that other Muslim scholars and early Muslims who tell things in the Torah which are not present in the Bible now. And as for the tests which some Jews and Christians , you can see what Abdullah Ibn Sailam , and Salman of Persia said in these 2 links.

The other possibility is that the Torah (not the Gospel, as we are sure that these Gospels are not of Issa(Peace be upon him), although it can contain some real quotes of him) had really the origins of that Pentateuch, but it was subjected to different interpolations, and this could be true, since what Ibn Abbas said in Bukhari about not corrupting the Torah, is not clear in referring to him, but it could have been a commentary from Bukhari himself, and we still have the hadith of Ibn Abbas that they added in God’s book, and the hadith of Mu’awiyah about Ka’b, Wahb may also be mistaken. What may also support this claim is that when Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) said when he saw a copy of the Torah with Omar, he blamed him and said: Are you doubting? I got it (the message) for you pure and white? This means that other than what the Prophet (Peace be upon him) came is neither pure nor white, this hadith was said to be weak by some Muslim scholars, but it has many other witnesses which can make it reach to be good as Sheikh Al Albany said.

Either one of the 2 possibilities is true, there is one result, one end, based on the 2 facts i stated in the beginning.

This is a prime example of why I want proof with the hadiths assertions. Here were have the assertion of someone at least 600 years later who claims the Bible is missing some verses. Proof besides his word? Wahb claims verses are missing, his proof?

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Your own tradition. It goes in great deal of detail in the supposed collection by Uthman 40 years later. Why so much trouble if the book already existed?

I don’t know, but was the original post refering to the documents found in the mosque of Sana? (the texts don’t match exactly to the present text).

No, Uthman didn’t do that 40 years after the Prophet(Peace be upon him), it was only about 15 years. Click here to know why this happened.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

This is a prime example of why I want proof with the hadiths assertions. Here were have the assertion of someone at least 600 years later who claims the Bible is missing some verses. Proof besides his word? Wahb claims verses are missing, his proof?

Do you want to a proof that passages and scripts were taken from the Bible?
No problem at all, see what your Church Fathers said about this, click on direct links:
Justin Martyr
John Chrysostom :
. We see here the cause why the angel also, putting them at ease for the future, restores them to their home. And not even this simply, but he adds to it a prophecy, “That it might be fulfilled,” saith he, “which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.”383383 Matt. ii. 23.

And what manner of prophet said this? Be not curious, nor overbusy. For many of the prophetic writings have been lost; and this one may see from the history of the Chronicles.384384 See 2 Chron. ix. 29, where it is said that certain of the acts of Solomon were written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite; and in the visions of Iddo the Seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat. See also ibid. xii. 15, and xiii. 22. [The explanation given above is as bold as it is ingenious.—R.] For being negligent, and continually falling into ungodliness, some they suffered to perish, others they themselves burnt up385385 [The Oxford edition reads “brought up;” evidently a misprint for “burnt up” (κατκαιον ).—R.]and cut to pieces.

 

[inJESUS]

:

124000 prophets : their messages got corrupt but Muhammad’s not? why?

Because Quran is preserved by God himself.

why did God not preserve thousands of prophet’s messages but decided to take responsibility with Muhammad\s message?

Quote:
Both Jews and Christians corrupt but Muslims not? why?

Not all the Jews or Christins are corrupt. Just a misunderstanding.

a misunderstanding is not a corruption of the text but of the meaning. I am looking for a textual corruption claim in the Quran.

The answers are already given and under discussion.

the answers were already answered to. Am looking for textual corruption of all scriptures and not corruption of meaning by “some”.

Further more, what you will be trying to prove is Bible is the compilation of Torah, Zaboor and Injeel and it is preserved till now as it was revealed.

you accuse of corruption so you prove that the Bible is not what it is. Many quotes from Matthew, Luke, Paul, Isaiah are in the Quran or Sunna. These are the Injeel, the Prophets and add to them the Psalms.

Process of throwing out chapters and verses are still going on. So, unless and until you have a TRUE copy of scripture as it was originally written, which your church already proved impossible, Quran’s claim of corrupting the scripture will live forever.

you still have to prove that the Quran talks of a textual corruption

 

[inJESUS]

InJesus

First of all, there are 2 facts, the first one is that the Quran doesn’t agree with the Bible in many issues, the second one is that there is a lot of evidence is that your Bible has many corruptions in it (this needs another thread), these 2 facts are a base that I will build on the conclusion that the Quran doesn’t acknowledge your Bible, as for the corruption of the Bible, there are 2 possibilities.