Kids overnight with their dad & his girlfriend?

[StevenFrancis]

Steven Francis - I did just say “no” to their dad, and he didn’t care. He said he would come and take them anyway - which I believe. About a week ago, I agreed to let him have visitation regardless of the fact that it was my weekend, because he wanted to have a birthday party for my son (and no, I don’t know why he didn’t plan it for his own weekend). I just asked that he bring them home no later than 10pm - which I think is very reasonable for a 4 year old and an almost 7 year old. However, around 6:30, he called and asked to keep them overnight. When I disagreed, he refused to return them anyway. After him telling me I will “see the kids tomorrow when I return them” 3 or 4 times, we (my parents and I) drove over to his house and retreived the kids. I do believe that was just the beginning.

Sorry to hear it. There is not much sadder than families in litigation. Sorry not much of the advice here helped. I hope prayers and condolences will.

Peace to you and your family.

Steven

 

[Melchior_1]

If you have FULL-TIME physical custody* (ie; no joint custody) *and he’s taking the kids and not giving them back…I’m no law expert but that sounds a tad on the illegal side. And it sounds like he won’t stop.

Good on ya getting the lawyer involved, because I think that’s the only way he’s going to learn some “manners”.

 

[krblaze]

Momar - thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. While I do know that " that it is not a given that you must protect your children from witnessing immoral behavior to instill good moral values" I also know that children most identify with the same gender parent - I have 2 boys. I have also attempted to have the best relationship possible with their dad, not only for the boys’ sake, but also for some peace in my life, and in their dad’s. I have “gone along with” many issues we disagreed about for that reason, thinking the consequences of fighting were not worth it. However, I don’t think this is one of them.

I have thought about the role his girlfriend will play in their lives, and do not want to make her an enemy. I have no reason to have ill will with her (she was not the cause of our split, I have no interest in ever being with him again, and from what I can tell, she is good to my kids). I don’t know her at all, as my soon to be ex doesn’t seem to ever want us to meet (seems ridiculous, as I’m guessing at some point she’ll want to come to baseball games, Christmas concerts, etc.) or to be in any kind of contact. Usually, people think my objection is about the girlfriend, and that I don’t want her a part of the kids lives at all - but, since I currently have no reason to think she behind all these games, or to think she is anything other than another mom trying to do the best for herself and her kids, I have no bad feelings towards her. I don’t think my ex would allow for us to be friends, if he can help it. Does this sound as crazy to you reading it as it does to my when I type it???

Melchior - the term we use for the custody agreement is sole physical (there are no adjectives used such as full time, part time, or joint). We have agreed I have sole physical custody. He can take them for parenting time every other weekend, and spend time with them twice a week. Sadly, his time underutilized. And yes, when the kids are supposed to be with me, but I agree he can have time with them anyway, he is supposed to return them at the agreed time. When he doesn’t, legally, I can pursue it in court (which I have not done, I was hoping to avoid that). Also sadly, I think you are right - he won’t stop, as he already told me he intends to take them again when it is not his time, and not return them until he’s done with his plans. It’s sad, and frustrating that we can’t work together on this - but it seems that unless I’m willing to (again) build and schedule our lives around his, we can’t coparent peacefully.

Geez, putting this all down in back and white sure paints a dim picture.

 

[gmarie21]

Does this sound as crazy to you reading it as it does to my when I type it???

No. Actually, shortly into my dad and step-mom’s marriage, my step-mom would call my mom for advice regarding my dad (he was treating her the same as he did my mom). My mom would tell her, there is life beyond my dad and that that life was a good one. My step-mom and dad are still married and the only way their marriage works is that she’s on active duty and living in one state while he’s in another and travels a lot for work. When they see each other it’s only on weekends and not every weekend. How sad for them. But I guess that’s why I don’t think it sounds crazy because I’ve witnessed it myself. My mom and step-mom get along just fine and my mom and the children from my dad and step-mom’s marriage get along great to. And my mom’s family and my dad’s family (aunts, uncles, cousins) get along great too. It is really weird to many people, but when there are children involved they are examples of making lemonade out of lemons. By the way, my mom talks to and exchanges letters with my step-dad’s former sister-in-law and parents-in-law. She even talks to my step-dad’s ex-wife whenever she calls. Then again, I know this is not the norm, but it isn’t crazy either.

You’re soon-to-be ex-husband probably doesn’t want the two of you to talk so that she can be left in the dark about him.

 

[taben]

Firstly, you might want to contact a local law school and ask for their legal clinic. From there, you might (with some schools) be able to get basic, free legal advice.

HOWEVER, pick you battles. If you take him to court over this you may set up years ahead of a nasty relationship. Could you reach a compromise? What is he agree to having himself and his girlfriend in separate rooms AND agreed to not leave the kids alone with her this trip, since they do not know her well?

Finally, as wrong as it may be the kids are going to be exposed as much to his values as to yours. So long as whatever he is doing is not illegal or truly harmful, how he chooses to parent them will be left alone by the courts. The best you might be able to do is raise the kids saying: “I think it is best for people to be married before they travel together and share a room, but Daddy does not that. But we both love you and you will always be safe when you are with one of us”. Set the tone now that you and their dad don’t always have the same beliefs,but both love them.
I will be praying for you!
AnnGrace

 

[joandarc2008]

OK- as funny as this sounds - if you think the GF might be reasonable - ask to meet her and develop a relationship with her based upon mutual time spent with your children. That way if there are issues such as this one hopefully you can bring them to her without all the unpleasantness you are having with your ex. Sometimes we women speak the same language a lot better and tend to be protectors of children better than men in situations such as this - no offense intended to the men on the board.

 

[ContegoFides]

Demand your lawyer to give you an opinion - even if vague - of your probability of success if you go to court over this issue. Tell him/her you understand that he/she can make no guarantees, but you still want an honest evaluation of the probability of success as well as the dangers of failure with their attendant probabilities. If your lawyer won’t give you any kind of realistic or useful answer, then find another lawyer and thereafter fire the old one.

You will also need to educate your children about the immorality of shacking up, though of course you will have to do it at an age appropriate level. My suggestion is that you actually teach your kids that marriage is God’s plan, and that through the 10 commandments God tells us that he doesn’t like grown men and women to sleep together unless they are married.

Dont’ address your husband’s issues directly with your children. That could lead to trouble.

If you form them well, and be a true mother to them, they will come to their own conclusions about their father’s behavior…

 

[momor]

Your situation has had me thinking back quite a bit to the time my ex and I split up and how we handled it. We ultimately had a pretty easy time of co-parenting but I totally believe it had everything to do with grace and insight we received early on to not fight each other and accept that we would have different parenting styles and rules. Our son had no trouble accepting that he had two homes and different house rules at each one which was also due to grace I believe.

The reason I mention this is because you said that you have sole physical custody and your ex has visitation. I assume there are reasons for this and it is not necessary for you to discuss that. However, when I thought back on my situation I realized that perhaps we had an easier time because we shared custody and were co-equal parents. Granted my husband was pretty sane and perhaps yours is not. But what you describe about him strikes me as childish behavior and I raise the question - could he be acting like a child because that’s how he feels? Having sole custody puts you in a very ‘superior’ position over him and reduces him to basically having to get your permission - a parent child relationship. Is it possible or at all reasonable to take a huge leap of faith and allow him to share custody?

 

[ContegoFides]

Why would she share custody when the man is clearly demonstrating that he thinks it is OK to commit what is objectively a mortal sin that has the possibility to condemn one to Hell? Seems unwise to me. Regardless of what the secular courts think, he is teaching his kids that behavior that is a mortal sin, objectively speaking only, is acceptable. That is NOT good, and I totally understand and support the OPs concerns.

The big question is whether the OP is before a judge that would be sympathetic to arguments based on immoral behavior from the non-custodial parent - and that is something that only her personal lawyer can answer. If so, then I would fight to get an order preventing the ex from doing what he intends. If not, then I would commend my children to the Lord and concentrate that much more on Eucharistic adoration and teaching the kids (though I would do that anyway).

 

[gmarie21]

Why would she share custody when the man is clearly demonstrating that he thinks it is OK to commit what is objectively a mortal sin that has the possibility to condemn one to Hell? Seems unwise to me. Regardless of what the secular courts think, he is teaching his kids that behavior that is a mortal sin, objectively speaking only, is acceptable. That is NOT good, and I totally understand and support the OPs concerns.

The big question is whether the OP is before a judge that would be sympathetic to arguments based on immoral behavior from the non-custodial parent - and that is something that only her personal lawyer can answer. If so, then I would fight to get an order preventing the ex from doing what he intends. If not, then I would commend my children to the Lord and concentrate that much more on Eucharistic adoration and teaching the kids (though I would do that anyway).

Now, my dad is only one judge, but the sympathy factor of judges is not what one would hope. Remember, they have seen and heard it all in custody cases. They’ve witnessed lies, manipulation, emotional outbursts, etc. Most are kind of hardened to the adults behaviors. The more rational an argument (without emotion) the better. The actions of OP’s husband, if witnessed in court, will get under a judge’s skin very fast. If one will not meet the other half way, not be willing to acknowledge some truths that may shed the other in a positive light, the judge does take notice. Trial law is for showboating and fake (or sincere) emotion, family law, only the kids can get away with that. But, as you also stated, the attorney will have a better understanding of the personality of the judge assigned to the case. Avoid extremes if they are not needed (and while we here think battles of the soul are most important, judges don’t really care because that can and has been used before). It’s just like the ones who falsely claim abuse without evidence (like dr. reports, police reports, etc.).

 

[noclevername]

I really hope you read what I am about to say before the divorce is final:

If you can, you need to have your lawyer redo the paper work. You can put in the divorce papers that your ex-husband cannot have someone of the opposite sex he is not married to staying in the house when your kids are there. You can also put in the paperwork that your ex-husband can’t even introduce your kids to a girlfriend until they are in a serious committed relationship AND you agree to the introduction. And of course the opposite would be true for you too.

I know you can do this. One of my sisters and one of my very good friends both who have kids put this stipulation in their divorce papers. If someone violates this agreement, they lose rights to see their kids. And it’s not to punish the kids, it’s for their safety. THey don’t need to see two people staying in the same house when they aren’t married. What is that teaching them?

 

[momor]

I really hope you read what I am about to say before the divorce is final:

If you can, you need to have your lawyer redo the paper work. You can put in the divorce papers that your ex-husband cannot have someone of the opposite sex he is not married to staying in the house when your kids are there. You can also put in the paperwork that your ex-husband can’t even introduce your kids to a girlfriend until they are in a serious committed relationship AND you agree to the introduction. And of course the opposite would be true for you too.

I know you can do this. One of my sisters and one of my very good friends both who have kids put this stipulation in their divorce papers. If someone violates this agreement, they lose rights to see their kids. And it’s not to punish the kids, it’s for their safety. THey don’t need to see two people staying in the same house when they aren’t married. What is that teaching them?

Her husband would have to agree to sign this, correct?

 

[noclevername]

Her husband would have to agree to sign this, correct?

Ummm, yes, and…what’s your point? Yes, it might go to court but a judge would be the one to decide if it stays in the papers, not the ex.

 

[momor]

Ummm, yes, and…what’s your point? Yes, it might go to court but a judge would be the one to decide if it stays in the papers, not the ex.

My only point is that it takes more than just putting something in the papers, which is kind of how you made it sound in your post. No offense intended.

 

[Kathal]

I just looked up this question on Ask.com and it directed me here. I am facing the same situation. My son is 7 and my daughter is 3 years old. My husband and I are divorcing and he is already living with his girlfriend. Like Kathie, I am not bitter at all- just relieved that he will be someone else’s problem and not mine!
In our custody agreement, he requested to take out the clause that indicated no overnight guests. I did not argue, but I had no idea that he was already seeing someone- he was still living in our home when we made this agreement.
It is hard for me to know that I was replaced so easily- I have a great deal of healing to do before I could think about trying to date anyone.
My mother and father have been arguing with me about allowing the kids to stay overnight with this situation. I have already explained to them that this is a religious argument, not a legal one. It would be a costly fight and one that I am not likely to win.
I figure that the best I can do is continue to raise my children with the values that I have been taught. I will not say bad things about their father- they will see these things for themselves as he continues to disappoint them, which I have no doubt he will.
Kathie- I hope things are working out for you. Please know that you are not alone in this- we both have a long hard road ahead of us. I honestly believe that as single mothers, we will be able to provide our children with all of the love and support that they need. Best of luck to you!

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I am opposed to this idea because it teaches them to accept something as normal, when it is actually not normal, and at best, innappropriate.

Divorce and breaking up a 2 parent home, is not normal or appropriate.

 

[horselvr]

Sometimes divorce is most appropriate.

OP: I’m with you on this and understand your concern for the kids. Some men just can’t handle not having control over their families to the extent they were use to when “married” and the end result is they will fight you at every turn of the road. He is using not bringing the kids back when he is suppose to, and seeing them on the days he is suppose to so he can get to you. He’s not very original now is he.

Unfortunately, his girlfriend doesn’t seem to have much character or morals either otherwise you would not have had to start this thread so approaching her is one big waste of time. So, her children are living day to day in the same household where they realize that their Mother is sleeping around and with a married man no less. No character there. Could be they are suited to eachother.

I had to face this same problem with my X when my son was old enough to visit him without feeling so intimidated. He was around 12 or 13 and old enough to call the cops if his Dad got abusive. The courts won’t give a hoot about your soon to be X cohabitaing in front of your kids because they sure don’t give a rats patootie about protecting kids from someone they fear because they lose control all too often—even if there are police records.

Anyway his dad made it a point to have him sleep in the bedroom that shared the same wall as the headboard he and his many girlfriends shared. He also relished in telling him about his many girlfriends and showed him pics. My son learned plenty from his dad.

What I really want to say is that there is always a positive from a negative. Your kids are learning plenty about what is right and what is just not from their Dad without you even speaking one word.

More sooner than later (and he’s already proving this point by not taking advantage of the 2/wk he could spend time with them) he will eventually spend less and less time with your childern. This is unfortunate in some divorced households and a blessing in others.

Peace and blessings to you and the kids.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I just looked up this question on Ask.com and it directed me here. I am facing the same situation. My son is 7 and my daughter is 3 years old. My husband and I are divorcing and he is already living with his girlfriend. Like Kathie, I am not bitter at all- just relieved that he will be someone else’s problem and not mine!
In our custody agreement, he requested to take out the clause that indicated no overnight guests. I did not argue, but I had no idea that he was already seeing someone- he was still living in our home when we made this agreement.
It is hard for me to know that I was replaced so easily- I have a great deal of healing to do before I could think about trying to date anyone.
My mother and father have been arguing with me about allowing the kids to stay overnight with this situation. I have already explained to them that this is a religious argument, not a legal one. It would be a costly fight and one that I am not likely to win.
I figure that the best I can do is continue to raise my children with the values that I have been taught. I will not say bad things about their father- they will see these things for themselves as he continues to disappoint them, which I have no doubt he will.
Kathie- I hope things are working out for you. Please know that you are not alone in this- we both have a long hard road ahead of us. I honestly believe that as single mothers, we will be able to provide our children with all of the love and support that they need. Best of luck to you!

You should start a new thread, this one is 2 years old already and the OP left it to archive. People will start responding to the OP and not you. Just create a new thread so more people will respond just to you.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Let me just raise a question or two as food for thought. At their ages, is the sleeping together very high on their radar screen of questionable behavior? At 7, my son would have been pretty clueless about the moral implications (it was a different more innocent era) but I don’t know how much your kids know about the “facts” of life. Could making an issue of it now end up exposing them to knowledge about sex and adult behavior they are overlooking and would be better off not dealing with right now? And maybe later, it won’t be an issue any longer (ex remarries)?

I am also pragmatic. If there is any chance the girlfriend will be raising your children along with your ex, it is not wise to make her an enemy. Is there any chance of enlisting her help?

This makes a lot of sense. I would caution you about making a huge issue of this. Is their dad a good father? If he treats them well and they have fun with him, then I don’t know if you really want to get on his bad side right now. He has legal visitation rights, no? Sleeping with his girlfriend isn’t a legal or abusive issue. The courts won’t pay attention to it. You’re wasting your time and energy. When the kids are under your care, then you can teach your values, but he’s still their father, and he has a right to instill his views too.

If you really upset him, then you run the risk of having him say things to the kids like, “You’re having a lot of fun this weekend, right? Yeah, your mom didn’t even want you to be able to come. She doesn’t like me, and she’s trying to keep us apart.” And he’ll probably really believe something like that. Then you’ll probably retaliate, and it will just get messier and messier, and the kids will suffer. You need to work together with their father as best as you can. If he mistreats the kids or acts unlawfully, then you have an entirely different case.

Also, if you make a big issue out of this, then the girlfriend is just going to think that it’s all because you don’t like her. And what if she does marry your husband? That could create some big issues. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to introduce the kids to his new girlfriend. You have been separated for two years; he’s going to date other people, and your kids are going to know about these other women if they’re a part of his life.

Whether you agree with it or not, to the secular world, you’re going to look a little crazy and bitter if your issue is that he’s taking his current girlfriend on a vacation with the kids. The word about this kind of stuff will get out, and people will just think you’re bitter. (And I believe you when you say that you’re not.) For the sake of your kids, don’t make things messier than they need to be.

 

[Et_Cetera]

You should start a new thread, this one is 2 years old already and the OP left it to archive. People will start responding to the OP and not you. Just create a new thread so more people will respond just to you.

Hmm…wish I would have caught your post before I typed mine haha.