Killing animals and the commandment to not kill

[Vince1022]

Jesus was sending his disciples out and told them they should go out armed. What do you think the purpose of that was? Maybe it was to cut the vegetables for lunch??

Are you serious? Or just joking? Are you suggesting Jesus sent His disciples out to kill people? Please clarify. Thank you.

And, by the way, that didn’t address my question.

Are you denying the Church teaching of our right to self defence even if in such self defence it means killing the aggressor?

No. Though it’s true that the Catholic Church does not teach killing is a moral obligation. Pacifism is completely coherent with the Christian tradition. Right?

And again, you still didn’t respond to my question. If God gave us the right to kill in self defense, why didn’t Jesus do such?

 

[patrick457]

I am curious to know if the Church has any teachings about killing animals.Does it conflict with the commandment “Thou shall not kill”?.I dont mean destroying ecosystems like rainforests,hunting or fishing but I mean like killing small animals (whether on purpose or by accident) such as ants,flies,coachroaches,worms,snails etc.I am guessing that everyone at one point in there lives has either by accident or on purpose killed such animals.Personally I am remember how especially when I was younger I purposely killed such animals and now deeply regret it.I guess this might be an ethics question for someone who is like an exterminator as well.I thank anyone who answers this appreciate it.

I’ll try to answer this from a linguistic POV.

The Hebrew word used in Exodus 20 is ratsaḥ. It originally referred to killing one person in retaliation for killing someone else; ultimately the word came to mean any killing motivated by animosity. Ratsaḥ is used only a few times in the Old Testament - 46 times in total. In long passages in Numbers 35, Deuteronomy 19, and Joshua 20-21, it is used to describe the act of someone who has committed what we might call manslaughter. In many contexts (Judges 20:4; 1 Kings 21:19; 2 Kings 6:32; Job 24:14; Psalm 62:3, 94:6; Proverbs 22:13; Hosea 6:9) the word is used to refer to any killing that is done in the manner of a predatory animal; i.e. 1) as an angry reaction to stimulus; or 2) lying in wait, as a predator waits for its prey.

More properly, the commandment “Thou shalt not murder” refers to fellow human beings, as the Council of Trent clarifies it. After all, if slaughtering animals per se was bad, then why does God order the Israelites to perform sacrifices and burnt offerings (which of course involves killing the sacrificial animals)?

 

[thistle]

Are you serious? Or just joking? Are you suggesting Jesus sent His disciples out to kill people? Please clarify. Thank you.

And, by the way, that didn’t address my question.

No. Though it’s true that the Catholic Church does not teach killing is a moral obligation. Pacifism is completely coherent with the Christian tradition. Right?

And again, you still didn’t respond to my question. If God gave us the right to kill in self defense, why didn’t Jesus do such?

The point of that was Jesus was ensuring his disciples were armed for the journey in case they were attacked and had to defend themselves.

As for your other strange question here is the answer:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to his world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”

 

[DarkNight]

What about people like Michael Vick? What are their actions saying? What are young impressionable people taught by such action?

Is it OK to cheer for Michael Vick?
The cruelty of Vick’s crime was spelled out in unsettling detail in the indictment against him, in passages such as:

“In or about April 2007 (Purnell) Peace, (Quanis) Phillips and Vick executed approximately eight dogs that did not perform well in “testing” sessions by various methods including hanging, drowning and slamming at least one dog’s body to the ground.”

If people can end a dog’s life in such a heinous manner (including hanging, drowning and slamming at least one dog’s body to the ground) simply because they are no longer useful, why would we believe they would not apply the same logic to human life.

Jesus points out that God takes care of the animals He created. "Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap; they have no storeroom nor barn, and yet God feeds them; how much more valuable you are than the birds! "(Luke 12:24)

Why then should we believe He expects less from us?
Why do we not trust that He has given us the talent to correctly handle animal populations?
Why do we bury our talents in the dirt and instead “take the easy way out” by trying to exterminate God’s creation.

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[chosen_people]

The answer is found in Genesis 9:3

 

[DarkNight]

The answer is found in Genesis 9:3

Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. Gensis 9:3

There is a profound difference between killing an animal for food and the wholesale slaughter of animals simply because we want to.
When the Native Americans killed buffalo “Its spirit was praised before every hunt with a tribal ritual dance. The buffalo supplied virtually everything that the Plain Indians needed to stay alive; food, clothing, tools, and housing.” Native Americans and the buffalo

Compare that with

Bison were hunted almost to extinction in the late 19th century primarily by white and half breed market hunters … They were hunted for their skins, with the rest of the animal left behind to decay on the ground. [

The first scenario follows Genesis 9:3.
The second is direct disobedience to the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”; It is murder pure and simple.](“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison#19th_century_bison_hunts”[/URL)​

 

[Vince1022]

The point of that was Jesus was ensuring his disciples were armed for the journey in case they were attacked and had to defend themselves.

Are you suggesting that Jesus said it’s ok (or even required) for his disciples to kill people? Please clarify.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to his world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.”

Right. No mandate for killing. Thanks.

 

[thistle]

Are you suggesting that Jesus said it’s ok (or even required) for his disciples to kill people? Please clarify.

Right. No mandate for killing. Thanks.

Is that a joke? You are saying if God gave us the right to self defence then that should have been evidenced by Jesus defending himself with a sword, knife or whatever? Are you really suggesting that?

 

[chosen_people]

Luke 22:35-36

35 He said to them, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.
36 He said to them, "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.

Jesus was sending his disciples out and told them they should go out armed. What do you think the purpose of that was? Maybe it was to cut the vegetables for lunch??

Are you denying the Church teaching of our right to self defence even if in such self defence it means killing the aggressor?

“Take my enemies, who would not have me rule over them, bring them here’ and kill them before me” (Luke 19:27)

“He who is not with me is against me” Matthew 12:30

“He who does not abide in me is thrown away like a withered branch. Such withered branches are gathered together, cast into the fire and burned” (John 15:6)

“Think not that I have come to send peace to the world. I come not to send peace, but the sword” (Matthew 10:34)

 

[Vince1022]

Is that a joke? You are saying if God gave us the right to self defence then that should have been evidenced by Jesus defending himself with a sword, knife or whatever? Are you really suggesting that?

I am asking if you are you suggesting that Jesus said it’s ok (or even required) for his disciples to kill people?

Yes or no?

 

[thistle]

I am asking if you are you suggesting that Jesus said it’s ok (or even required) for his disciples to kill people?

Yes or no?

In an earlier post I think you agreed that the Church teaches the right to self defence, even if that self defence means killing someone and correct me if I’m wrong but you accept that teaching.
Now you are continually asking if Jesus specifically said the words “you can go out and kill people”. Did he use these exact words in Scripture? No. Now please explain what that is supposed to mean because you seem to be suggesting that if he did not use these words then it means the Church teaching is wrong. Will you please clarify your point beacuse its hard to respond when I don’t understand what you are getting at.

 

[kildare]

To the human eye some animals and life forms are dangerous. Strictly speaking bacteria and even viruses are life forms. Animals are just one small section of life on earth. So do we have the right to defend ourselves or exploit the other “life resources” on the planet for survival? I think we do and it says so in genesis.

Even if we cant see it or understand it, the natural law (which seems tooth and claw) is in accordance with God’s overall design and therefore it is good!

The Earth and all its life forms are good.
The movement of the earths crust is good (unfortunately it can have effects on our imperfect man made civilization.
Ultimately bacteria is GOOD (not always for us)
Ultimately the Lion is GOOD (not for the man’s left alone in the cage’s point of view)

All is good. We are allowed to survive of course. That might seem paradoxical but not to God.

So to summarize, all life and nature is good, because it is from God. It should be respected and we ought to start living up to our role as stewards. Yes we can eat the creatures, but I think we should try to use our God given intelligence to be as ethical and as humane as possible. Needless killing. Enjoyment of destruction. destruction of the planet for greed is hardly Christian behavior.

We should be discerning and loving in our view of other life! Eating meat does not make you a hater of animals! Killing bugs does not make you anti-life! You can still love it and praise God for their life which enriches ours!

 

[Vince1022]

In an earlier post I think you agreed that the Church teaches the right to self defence, even if that self defence means killing someone and correct me if I’m wrong but you accept that teaching.

Yes the Church teaches the right to self defense, but not the obligation to kill a person in self defense.

Now you are continually asking if Jesus specifically said the words “you can go out and kill people”. Did he use these exact words in Scripture? No. Now please explain what that is supposed to mean because you seem to be suggesting that if he did not use these words then it means the Church teaching is wrong. Will you please clarify your point beacuse its hard to respond when I don’t understand what you are getting at.

I was merely responding to your post.

You said God gave us the right to kill people in self defense (post 36). I don’t agree with that, but simply asked you why then Jesus didn’t do such. You responded with a quotation of Luke 22:35-36 (post 39). At the end of your post, you switched your claim to saying the Church (not God, or Jesus, as you previously claimed) gives us the right to self defense.

Either way, you avoided my question about why Jesus didn’t invoke this God-given (or Church-given?) right of self defense by taking another human life. Your response in post 39 implied to me that Jesus either sent his disciples out to (1) kill humans or (2) cut vegetables for lunch.I don’t agree with either interpretation I thought your post suggested those two alternatives, and of course the Catholic Church does not teach either of these.

Can you please clarify, then, exactly what you meant in your post #39?

 

[thistle]

Yes the Church teaches the right to self defense, but not the obligation to kill a person in self defense.

I was merely responding to your post.

You said God gave us the right to kill people in self defense (post 36). I don’t agree with that, but simply asked you why then Jesus didn’t do such. You responded with a quotation of Luke 22:35-36 (post 39). At the end of your post, you switched your claim to saying the Church (not God, or Jesus, as you previously claimed) gives us the right to self defense.

Either way, you avoided my question about why Jesus didn’t invoke this God-given (or Church-given?) right of self defense by taking another human life. Your response in post 39 implied to me that Jesus either sent his disciples out to (1) kill humans or (2) cut vegetables for lunch.I don’t agree with either interpretation I thought your post suggested those two alternatives, and of course the Catholic Church does not teach either of these.

Can you please clarify, then, exactly what you meant in your post #39?

Its very simple. The Church has the authority given to it by God so whatever the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals is authorsied by God or do you dispute that. The Church cannot teach something contrary to the will of God.
The Church (authorised by God) teaches we have the right to self defence, and to kill a person if that is the minimum force required for self defence or defence of others.

So what have we established?
We have the right to self defence, even if that means having to kill someone.
Who gives us that right? God does through the teachings of his Church which can never teach anything against his will.

Are we obligated to kill someone. I guess not (none of my posts stated that) although CCC 2265 might imply that (grave duty is an obligation).
If someone is attacking your family with a knife or gun I suppose you are free to stand by and let them be killed. You can then answer to God who said the greatest gift you can give is to lay down your life for a loved one.

CCC 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.

CCC 2265** Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others.** The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

 

[Vince1022]

The Church cannot teach something contrary to the will of God.

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? (hint: nowhere)

What about e.g. slavery?

The Church (authorised by God) teaches we have the right to self defence, and to kill a person if that is the minimum force required for self defence or defence of others.

Again, please, reference? Where exactly does the Catholic Church teach this? Thank you.

So what have we established?

You have claimed a number of things, but “we” have not established anything much.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? (hint: nowhere)

What about e.g. slavery?

Again, please, reference? Where exactly does the Catholic Church teach this? Thank you.

You have claimed a number of things, but “we” have not established anything much.

Wow. It’s like you’re not even Catholic (even though you claim to be). How can you say the Catholic church teaches something against God’s will?

OK, here’s a scenario and you tell me what you would do.

You come upon 3 teenage girls being raped, brutalized, and one has been murdered by 3 brutish biker dudes. One of the girls is already dead. If you do nothing the other two will be dead also. You don’t have a phone and no help is withing shouting or running distance. You pick up a gun that you see lying there. You command them to stop. They look at you and laugh and continue with the mayhem. You pray. They continue.

What do you do?

Since you don’t want to kill, you could shoot one in the leg. The other two grab their guns and point them at you. You now have a split second to live, and the teen age girls will certainly die.

Don’t you think there are scenarios like this where deadly force is necessary?

It has to be a last resort, but it is acceptable.

Read the church teaching on just wars. Even capital punishment is acceptable if there is no other way to protect others from the person.

Do you think that police should not be armed?

 

[thistle]

Where does the Catholic Church teach this? (hint: nowhere)

What about e.g. slavery?

Again, please, reference? Where exactly does the Catholic Church teach this? Thank you.

You have claimed a number of things, but “we” have not established anything much.

Are you joking or smoking something bad?

Bearing in mind that in matters of faith and morals the Church CANNOT be in error do you believe the Church teachings have the authority of God behind them?
Yes or No??

Oh and you asked where the Church teaches this: “The Church (authorised by God) teaches we have the right to self defence, and to kill a person if that is the minimum force required for self defence or defence of others.”
The teaching is in the CCC quotes I gave you in the same post. Didn’t you read them?

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

Oh and back to the killing of animals…

Jesus told the parable about the return of the lost son. The father prepared the fatted calf as a feast.

Would he have used that as an example if it was wrong to eat animals?

I’m just saying…

Beef - It’s what’s for dinner!

 

[patrick457]

Oh and back to the killing of animals…

Jesus told the parable about the return of the lost son. The father prepared the fatted calf as a feast.

Would he have used that as an example if it was wrong to eat animals?

I’m just saying…

Beef - It’s what’s for dinner!

And as I mentioned, in the OT God even commands this or that animal to be slaughtered as a sacrifice. Oh, and Acts 10:10-15. “Get up, Peter, kill and eat.”

 

[Vince1022]

Is that a joke? You are saying if God gave us the right to self defence then that should have been evidenced by Jesus defending himself with a sword, knife or whatever? Are you really suggesting that?

Well, maybe yes. If you are saying God gave us the right to self defense, then I think it’s completely logical to ask why Jesus did not invoke this God-given right.