Killing in defense

  • Thread starter Thread starter mymamamary
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mymamamary

Guest
Hey everyone!!

With all this talk of persecution, the movie for Greater Glory, obama and the hhs mandate etc., i wondered. If there was a mass persecution, could i kill in defense, for example, lets say soldiers break into Church, am i allowed to pick up a gun in defense of the Priest and the Tabernacle?? I wouldnt want them touching either of the two, so would this be justified, or should guns be a last resort?? I wouldnt be able to sjust standy by and watch, i could be a martyr (so hard, but so beautiful) or could i shoot the soldiers??

would this be justified?
 
If you were left with the option of defending the lives of those who couldn’t defend themselves then I would say perhaps God would be lenient. Althought I am not sure. The best method would be a peaceful surrender.
 
PeterJohn said:
If you were left with the option of defending the lives of those who couldn’t defend themselves then I would say perhaps God would be lenient. Althought I am not sure. The best method would be a peaceful surrender.
Click to expand...
I’m fond of what one of my favorite radio shows - The Jesus Christ Show - talks about regarding this: A law shall not supersede its reason for existence. I know in the old testament, there’s a mention of the times when it is just to kill in defense of self (basically when you have no other option).
 
The Church only condones violence in defense of the self, defense of another, or in a just war. So no, you couldn’t shoot them if they only intended to arrest you or the priest. Violence is rarely a recommended option. That’s why most Christian martyrs were executed. They didn’t die in battle.
 
In a similar situation, if possible consume the Eucharist as quickly as possible in order to save it from desecration.

Protect the priest with your body, but do not kill for them - I bet most priests would be willing to be martyred for the faith, and would be unwilling that anyone should die to save them or should be killed in order to protect them.

If you want to see a really good movie on this theme watch “Romero”
 
I’ve seen Romero. 😦 it was a sad movie, and i didnt like the end, it was too shocking for me, but i did find something that was very touching. The blood of Archbishop Romero poured at, In addition to the MOST PRECIOUS BLOOD. Perhaps some Priests woudnt like it, but then i have to ask, other than being martyrs, what purpose would their death serve? as there is a shortage of them already, letting them die, who would Pastor me, Feed me with the EUCHARIST, Absolve me of my sins etc.? plus i have a very short fuse when it comes to injustice, so i wouldnt be able to stand by and watch. My standpoint would be either shoot or get shot.
 
mymamamary said:
Hey everyone!!

With all this talk of persecution, the movie for Greater Glory, obama and the hhs mandate etc., i wondered. If there was a mass persecution, could i kill in defense, for example, lets say soldiers break into Church, am i allowed to pick up a gun in defense of the Priest and the Tabernacle?? I wouldnt want them touching either of the two, so would this be justified, or should guns be a last resort?? I wouldnt be able to sjust standy by and watch, i could be a martyr (so hard, but so beautiful) or could i shoot the soldiers??

would this be justified?
Click to expand...
Firstly it would be wrong.
Secondly why do you have a gun at Mass to shoot with anyway?

You have options: Die for the Faith, protect other people, there will be children there, maybe your bullets will hit them?

If I was at Mass with my wife and children and people came in to murder everyone I would naturally protect my wife and children and any others if I could.

If I were there by myself I would like to think that I would protect others even if it meant ushering people out (there are other doors around).

I would never pick up a gun and create a two-way shootout, more bullets for the innocent to try and avoid.

PS. I haven’t seen the film you mentioned and I do not listen to Obama at all.
 
Nelka said:
Firstly it would be wrong.
Secondly why do you have a gun at Mass to shoot with anyway?

You have options: Die for the Faith, protect other people, there will be children there, maybe your bullets will hit them?

If I was at Mass with my wife and children and people came in to murder everyone I would naturally protect my wife and children and any others if I could.

If I were there by myself I would like to think that I would protect others even if it meant ushering people out (there are other doors around).

I would never pick up a gun and create a two-way shootout, more bullets for the innocent to try and avoid.

PS. I haven’t seen the film you mentioned and I do not listen to Obama at all.
Click to expand...
Disagree.

If there was a widespread persecution of the Church, we have every right to take up arms and fight it. If they know everytime they come to arrest a priest, 5 of 10 of the police are going to get shot, they may reconsider.

Thankfully, our military are mostly Christian and Conservative, and the gunowners in this country overwhelmingly the same, and would most likely support a revolution against such an unjust government.

If 55% of the people democratically choose to take away our God-given- liberty, it’s time to end democracy. Better a just dictatorship than an unjust democracy.

Dying for your beliefs is fine, but wars are won by making the other poor son-of-a-***** die for his.

God Bless
 
bilop said:
Disagree.

If there was a widespread persecution of the Church, we have every right to take up arms and fight it. If they know everytime they come to arrest a priest, 5 of 10 of the police are going to get shot, they may reconsider.

Thankfully, our military are mostly Christian and Conservative, and the gunowners in this country overwhelmingly the same, and would most likely support a revolution against such an unjust government.

If 55% of the people democratically choose to take away our God-given- liberty, it’s time to end democracy. Better a just dictatorship than an unjust democracy.

Dying for your beliefs is fine, but wars are won by making the other poor son-of-a-***** die for his.

God Bless
Click to expand...
We’re not here to win wars - we’re here to build the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
triumphguy said:
In a similar situation, if possible consume the Eucharist as quickly as possible in order to save it from desecration.

Protect the priest with your body, but do not kill for them - I bet most priests would be willing to be martyred for the faith, and would be unwilling that anyone should die to save them or should be killed in order to protect them.

If you want to see a really good movie on this theme watch “Romero”
Click to expand...
Ever since watching Romero, I’ve become paranoid at Mass every time I hear the main door slams shut (which is often) or I think I see something moving up in the choir loft.
 
Nelka said:
Secondly why do you have a gun at Mass to shoot with anyway?
Click to expand...
I have a gun at Mass becauses churches and Christians have become targets for violence. If someone decides he’s coming into my parish to rack up a body count, or someone decides he’s going to make some sort of statement by killing my pastor, he’s going to have to go through me to do it. These sorts of things happen, and hoping they won’t happen near me is no sort of preparation.

At this point, I’m not thinking in terms of the state stomping into churches to arrest priests. It may happen eventually, but we’ll have to see a whole lot of other things occur before we get there.
 
Non_sum_dignus said:
I have a gun at Mass becauses churches and Christians have become targets for violence. If someone decides he’s coming into my parish to rack up a body count, or someone decides he’s going to make some sort of statement by killing my pastor, he’s going to have to go through me to do it. These sorts of things happen, and hoping they won’t happen near me is no sort of preparation.

At this point, I’m not thinking in terms of the state stomping into churches to arrest priests. It may happen eventually, but we’ll have to see a whole lot of other things occur before we get there.
Click to expand...
Unless the gunman swings in from the ceiling you aren’t going to get a clear shot.😛

And dealing with a lone killer in an isolated incident who is putting hundreds of people at risk at one time is going to be very different (morally, and in practice) than an organized state led crackdown on religion.
 
This topic is very near and dear to my heart: I’m a cop and I ALWAYS have a Glock 30, 24 rounds, handcuffs, my badge and a cell phone with me at every mass, adoration, or anyother church function I go to. I see it as my moral responsibility. I KNOW what kind of evil is out there. I KNOW how many churches world-wide have been attacked by gunmen, knife-men, sword-men, grenade throwing-men, and bombed…

First off, one of the things that led me back to the Church is her teaching on self-defense: The Church absolutely allows armed defense of self or others (She does not say whether or not the ‘others’ has the ability to defend themselves or not) up to and including “the fatal blow” (As Mr. Staples so tactically put it) when you believe their life is in imminent danger.

Another issue, if someone busted into our church and began randomly shooting - ala Columbine or Virginial Tech - I would try to get the quickest, clearest shot possible, but I will shoot even if other innocent MIGHT be struck by my bullets. This is consistant with Church teaching regarding Cancer treatment of a pregnant woman. The child will most-likely die, BUT THAT IS NOT THE INTENT. The intent of the treatment is to save the life of the mother.

Same with shooting with innocent bystanders around. The shooter is more dangerous to all the innocent bystanders than I am. My intent is to stop the shooters actions as fast as possible. The faster you stop them, the more lives are saved. If I happen to miss and strike an innocent bystander - I will be very upset - however, that is NOT immoral as that was NOT my intent. My intent was to save as many lives as possible. Again, this is consistant with Church Teaching.

So back to the OP: MINUS THE GOVERNMENT PART FOR NOW - if you believe the Priest is in imminent danger of Death or Great Bodily Harm - i.e. they’re going to drag him outside the church and behead him, the absolutely physically protecting the Priest is allowed by the Catholic Church.

Adding the Governement issue back in and it becomes much more blurred. I would need to know more information before making that decision.
 
But sometimes, or often ONLY the non-violent approach wins out:

For instance the early Church and the martyrs under Diocletian. The firm resolve of the martyrs absolutely won hearts and minds over to Christ.

Other examples are:

The Japanese Martyrs,

The Canadian Martyrs.

The English Martyrs.

Bishop Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela

Solidarity in Poland

The women’s peace movement in Belfast

And not a Christian or Catholic example, but Gandhi’s non violent methods got the British tossed out of India.

Some may know history better than me, but apart from the Christero War can anyone name a single time where an armed uprising of Catholics won Religious Freedom (without any nasty side affects like the occasional atrocity, revenge killing, collateral damage that is out of proportion) against an oppressor?
 
Hmm, I agree with TriumphGuy, but also with the OP who said he was a cop. I dont know? 🤷 i want to protect my Priest, and above all, My LORD in the BLESSED SACRAMENT, as its no bread in the Tabernacle, HE is a living PERSON inside that TABERNACLE. Only difference is, that if HE wanted, HE could call down legions of angels to defend HIM, but i couldnt stand back and watch sacrelige happen, or watch my Priest get shot and killed. I know the seeds of the Church is the blood of the Martytrs, but if push came to shove, then i hope i would be the first to be shot, so that i wouldnt have to watch the others die… Im torn? Doesnt the Just War doctrine apply to this as well?
 
mymamamary said:
Hmm, I agree with TriumphGuy, but also with the OP who said he was a cop. I dont know? 🤷 i want to protect my Priest, and above all, My LORD in the BLESSED SACRAMENT, as its no bread in the Tabernacle, HE is a living PERSON inside that TABERNACLE. Only difference is, that if HE wanted, HE could call down legions of angels to defend HIM, but i couldnt stand back and watch sacrelige happen, or watch my Priest get shot and killed. I know the seeds of the Church is the blood of the Martytrs, but if push came to shove, then i hope i would be the first to be shot, so that i wouldnt have to watch the others die… Im torn? Doesnt the Just War doctrine apply to this as well?
Click to expand...
Yes the Just War doctrine would apply.

There are different levels to this.

No one could ever say the martyrs were wrong. And as I wrote before the blood of the martyrs are the seeds of the Church. And to die a martyr is a special “gift” or grace.

However, I wouldn’t say that Bomber Command in Britain during World War II was immoral either, even though thousands upon thousands of innocent people died. The war against Hitler was utterly necessary and the Nazis absolutely needed to be stopped. We were in a total war situation and needed drastic action in order to save civilization.

However taking up arms and fighting for religious freedom is a very mixed issue.

I would say it’s right to die as a martyr for one’s faith.

I would also say it’s right to fight and die and even kill to defend western civilization.

But is it right to kill in Jesus’ name?

That would really depend on the situation at the time.
 
Hmm, that bugs me too…, Becuase wouldnt that be blasphemy to kill in HIS NAME?

The crusaders did that, but at the same time, nonwithstanding, i cant condone their actions but if they didnt launch the assualt, right now we would all be Muslims. But anyway, yes that does bother me: I want to defend Our LORD, with arms if nessescary, but at the same time, i dont want to blaspheme. It would be glorious to be a marytr, very beautiful, to shed your blood in defense of HIM WHO shed HIS BLOOD first for me… but still, im confused and torn. What if i used guns as a last resort and lets say knocked the perpetrator out? or put him down and tied him??, because the only time i would see gun use as being justified, as if there is no other way. Am i right?? Plus, its not as if i carry a gun to HOLY MASS anyhow. I would love to buy a few guns as soon as i am of age, mainly for hunting and shooting. Im still torn? what wold be the ideal thing then?
 
Perhaps the separation of Church and State allows for a both/and approach.

In a “Christian” country it would be “right” for the army to fight for the faith against oppression, while it would not be right for clerics, or consecrated religious to pick up arms.

So it would be morally just for our policeman friend (above) to “serve and protect” and so “carry” into Church but not OK for the priest to carry a concealed weapon and use it in mass to protect himself or the sanctuary.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top