Killing in the military...quick question

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+JMJ+

You are right it is not a funny aurgument.Forgive me!But I still must side with the church which you obviously do not.That the church does teach that war can be just! This again is what the CCC has to say on the subject…"2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

**However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.” **
"2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."
**"2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace."**

*“2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.” *
The CCC goes on to say…"2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good."
You see Kaleb you fail to understand that this world is not perfect.All actions of the US military will not all be legitiamte, but they will not all be ilegitimate either.As for self-defense,what do you call it when you have a person running at you with an AK-47 shooting at you and you fire back?Is that not self-defense.Does not the CCC say we have a GRAVE DUTY to protect and safe guard our own lives?
Code: 
So in my humble opinion it seems you are judging every person in the military as a whole;what one solider has commited the other has also commited.Yes there will be times unjust acts are commited in war but the working of those individuals who commited the act in my opinion does NOT make the whole war unjust.Now I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan in particular I am speaking in general.
So please forgive me but I firmly believe you are wrong and are teaching contrary to the Catholic Church.But if I have misunderstood where you stand please forgive me.But it does seem like you are a pacifist.

God bless you and Mary keep you!

P.S. I also can lean a little more this way than the other because I am joining the army.So I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. 😦 God bless you brother!
 
PROUD 2 B RC:
So in my humble opinion it seems you are judging every person in the military as a whole;what one solider has commited the other has also commited.Yes there will be times unjust acts are commited in war but the working of those individuals who commited the act in my opinion does NOT make the whole war unjust.Now I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan in particular I am speaking in general.
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I’m speaking in general because by joining the military, you make yourself a part of the organization, you are no longer an individual, but a soldier owned by the state. You said unjust acts will occur, but that it doesn’t necessarily make the entire war unjust. I want to know how many unjust acts does it take before you realize that one is too many.

And poque or grunt, both contribute to the military effort. Just because the pencil-pusher signs forms, that doesn’t make his hands any less clean.

If I watch someone kill an individual, but I had the power to stop the murder, I’m just as guilty.
PROUD 2 B RC:
So please forgive me but I firmly believe you are wrong and are teaching contrary to the Catholic Church.But if I have misunderstood where you stand please forgive me.But it does seem like you are a pacifist.
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How exactly is that evident? By merely advocating peace, that makes me a pacifist? Am I teaching in accordance with the Catholic Church? Perhaps; I’m not even Catholic, I’m a Methodist. But it seems to me that the underlying message of the (infallible or not?) Catechism says violence is to be avoided whenever possible. And by joining the military, you are giving up your choice of deciding whether an action is appropriate or not.
 
I guess I am having a hard time understanding what you are arguing then. It really sounds like you are argueing that being a soldier is imoral and that war is automatically wrong. As far as I understand, most of us that have disagreed with you are Catholic, and have pointed out the teachings of the Catholic Church to you, saying that being a soldier is not wrong or evil, though you are morally bound to not follow evil orders (which BTW, American soldiers are also told, that they cannot follow order they know to be immoral). Of course, I must admit, I am still reeling from the notion that you have argued that a Roman soldier in the 1st century was MORE likely to have duties that allowed him to do good for society than our military now. Part of why many Roman soldiers joined the miliary was because of plunder.

I get the feeling that you don’t like the current war we are currently procecuting, and if that is the case, that is fine. Many people that beleive in just warfare disagree on what actually qualifies. But you are making a lot of generalities that seem to shift in order to suit your arguement, which at its heart is that you think the AMERICAN military is immoral. If this is not the case, please help me to understand your position.
 
+JMJ+
Again read the post!If you noticed it covered a section on being in the armed forces.

CCC 2310 "Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace."
Code: 
 As for a person giving the right to decide wether or not a action is right or wrong,FALSE.The uniform code of military justice says you can disobey an order if the order is against the law as it were.Yes the Catechism say's violenece is to be avoided whenever possible,but it does say as I have shown that there can be JUST VIOLENCE,such as self-defense or when a solider is in the army.Ask any orthodox catholic priest and he will tell you the same.He will tell you it is self-defense is such a situation.

 As for you being methodist well,thats our problem you have a different set of beliefs.So I say again the Catechism as I have shown proves that you are wrong .Wether you believe it or not,I am sorry but you are wrong.So we are going to have to agree to disagree.I hate to say it like that but it seems thats all I can say.


God bless you and Mary keep you! :)
 
Hello Anim8,

The Church has never held even WWII Axis German and Italian soildiers guilty of mortal sin for killing on the side of injustice. It would be rather awkward for the Church to now hold American soldiers guilty of mortal sin for fighting in a war where the freely ellected Iraqie government asks us to stay and protect them till they get on their feet.

When I was young I struggled with the same questions on war. It was the Vietnam war at that time. I have spent a great deal on time praying and contemplating scriptures seeking out Jesus’ and the Father’s will on when to kill.

Please visit Throwing Stones and
Thank you veterans, troops and police officers.
 
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Unfinished:
I am in the Marines, and it really comes down to a just war.

How many times in the Old Testement did God send his people to kill others? I don’t know the answer, but it was quite a few times.

Someone else might be able to present the whole arguement for a “just war”, I don’t know it.

It also deals with submitting to authority, including the secular authority. My Baptist Chaplin did a Bible study on this while I was in Iraq, and it made sense. I don’t remember all the details though. (Basicly, God still put them in a position of authority or something along those lines)

Perhaps another poster could fill those in, but those are the two things it deals with.

Adam
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THE PROBLEM WITH BEING A SOLDIER IS WHAT IF ITS NOT A JUST WAR. LOOK AT BUSHY FOR EXAMPLE OR BUSH. IF ITS NOT A JUST WAR BUT U HVE TO GO DER U WILL HAVE HARD TIME KILLING :mad:

I USED TO WANT TO GO DER BUT I CHANGED MY MIND AFTER ALL WAT IF ITS NOT GOING TO BE A JUST WAR? I DNT WANNA KILL ANYONE. :cool:
 
+JMJ+

I think if it is a unjust war, that can not be place on the grunt who is just trying to survive.That is my opinion of course.
God bless you and Mary keep you!
 
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tjmiller:
Jesus said that He came to bring, not peace, but a sword…
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That was figurative speech and had nothing to do with actually killing anyone or encouraging anyone to kill.
He commanded us to love our enemies and pray for them!
 
+JMJ+

WOW!I actualy agree with Thistle on this one. 😃 😉 That is as Thistle said firgurative speech.I believe the sword to be the truth that he came to bring,and that it would cause some unrest among those who believe and those who dont.My opinon.As for what has already been stated the Church does not promote violence but it can be just such as just war self defense and so.The CCC says we are all to pray to avoid war but when it does happen well,there are certain criteria it must go through before it can be consider a just war.The criteria is already posted above.

As for being a solider in an unjust war,well all the CCC says is…“Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations.** If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.”**
That was taken from paragraph 2310 of the CCC.

As how that stands during an unjust war well who knows.I guess only those have seen war it slef can truly answer that.Sadly I might find out soon enough. 😦

God bless you and Mary keep you!
 
PROUD 2 B RC said:
+JMJ+

WOW!I actualy agree with Thistle on this one. 😃 😉 That is as Thistle said firgurative speech.I believe the sword to be the truth that he came to bring,and that it would cause some unrest among those who believe and those who dont.My opinon.As for what has already been stated the Church does not promote violence but it can be just such as just war self defense and so.The CCC says we are all to pray to avoid war but when it does happen well,there are certain criteria it must go through before it can be consider a just war.The criteria is already posted above.

As for being a solider in an unjust war,well all the CCC says is…“Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations.** If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.”**
That was taken from paragraph 2310 of the CCC.

As how that stands during an unjust war well who knows.I guess only those have seen war it slef can truly answer that.Sadly I might find out soon enough. 😦

God bless you and Mary keep you!
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👍 🙂
 
Proud to Be:

Here is a prayer going up for you, a powerful Hail Mary, that you will be kept safe through mortal danger. Even though some people say the danger our country faces these days is unjust, they are mistaken. Defending the innocent is not unjust, even when they call out from far away or in our own homes as they go about their pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Always keep your motivation set on carrying out the mental self discipline required to follow your orders as lawfully given to you. Think only of preventing further victims of the enemy and keep your skills sharp to carry that through. Pray to have courage, faith and to keep them when tested.
Your service is appreciated in the greatest sense and is heroic by its nature. Deepest regards to you and all those serving our armed forces!
 
I placed a quote from our Holy Father in the thread The War in Iraq . He was talking to the soldiers trying to give civilians security in places like Iraq in the message.
 
Here’s what the Catechism has to say on the subject of self defense…2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not. "2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
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But what about one on offence. Perhaps in a defending position, one is forced to kill…but what about the snipers who’s enemies cannot see them? This is unarguably an act of intentional killing, not self-defence. Additionally, any offence or ambush, surprise attack, in which you are the aggressor, would justify them in killing you, but not you in killing them.

According to this, I can ascertain that only the defenders are justified in killing. The aggressor cannot kill for he is attacking, not defending.
 
Servus Pio XII:
But what about one on offence. Perhaps in a defending position, one is forced to kill…but what about the snipers who’s enemies cannot see them? This is unarguably an act of intentional killing, not self-defence. Additionally, any offence or ambush, surprise attack, in which you are the aggressor, would justify them in killing you, but not you in killing them.

According to this, I can ascertain that only the defenders are justified in killing. The aggressor cannot kill for he is attacking, not defending.
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Offense is acceptable if it is the only reasonable way to prevent an inevitable attack upon the innocent.

Those who wage war justly aim at peace, and so they are not opposed to peace, except to the evil peace, which Our Lord “came not to send upon earth” (Matthew 10:34). Hence Augustine says (Ep. ad Bonif. clxxxix): “We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace. Be peaceful, therefore, in warring, so that you may vanquish those whom you war against, and bring them to the prosperity of peace.”
– St. Thomas Summa Theologica
 
To personally abide by the just war doctrine and join the military, wouldn’t the US also have to abide by the just war doctrine?
 
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Anim8:
I know that there is an exception to “Thou shalt not kill” when you are in the military fighting in war and so on, and I’m pretty sure that it flows from the self defence type of thing “If I don’t kill him he will kill me”. Anyways I am planning on joining the military (the USMC to be exact) and I was wondering if someone could kind of lay out exactly what the reasoning behind this is. I have no problem with it I’m just looking for clarification.
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It is well explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, here:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
 
how many times did Jesus use violence against other people?
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Destruction of Jerusalem, AD 70…

“and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city…where their Lord was crucified.” (Rev 11:8)

"I will strike her children dead. " (Rev 2:23)
 
Kaleb Kroger:
Did he ever tell the prostitutes he met to stop selling themselves?
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He said, “Go, and sin no more.”
And you have to understand that a Roman soldier in the 1st century is vastly different from say, an American one today. They were in the business of policing the Jews, repairing roads, and other civil service type affairs. It’s not like every soldier was engaged in violent activity for the state.
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Yes, a Roman Centurian killed more indiscriminately than an American soldier does today.

I doubt the people of Jerusalem in AD 70 share your view of the “role” of the Roman Centurian. :rolleyes:
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Destruction of Jerusalem, AD 70…

“and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city…where their Lord was crucified.” (Rev 11:8)

"I will strike her children dead. " (Rev 2:23)
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Um… I didn’t know Jesus was involved in the destruction of Jerusalem… 70 AD? That’s news to me…
 
It’s interesting that many of you are saying that Christians should submit to the secular authorities when it comes to war. That was the justification of many Germans during the Nazi regime as well.

Someone said of the military:
The uniform code of military justice says you can disobey an order if the order is against the law as it were.

What if the entire war is against the law?

As for those of you who are so intelligently saying “check the catechism,” Pope Benedict also said, “Check the Catechism” when someone asked him about the Iraq War. But he meant the COMPLETE opposite that most of you do. He was/is against the war and his point was that the Catechism does not discuss preemptive war, i.e. preemptive war is NOT included under the possibilites for a “just war.” The United States is engaged in an immoral, unjust, illegal war. I would suggest to anyone thinking of “joining up” that you SERIOUSLY consider what you are submitting to. You WILL hand your allegiance over to your commanders and the United States government when your true allegiance as a Roman Catholic is to Christ and to his Church. That alone would make me shudder. I don’t know about YOU, but in MY baptism, I chose Christ and to serve him and his Church alone.

I seriously encourage ALL of you to read the following article that appeared in the Catholic Peace Fellowship newsletter. If you see no issue with joining up, and if you think it’s a simple matter that your conscience can be at peace with, think again. And if your simple-minded answer to the question of war is “the Church says war is sometimes ok,” then this article will tear you apart. But we need the Gospel to tear us apart sometimes. I had it happen to me several years ago. I finally heard the Gospel with open ears, and it changed my life. Please read the following and post what you think of it. It’s long so I’ll post it in another entry…

While you’re at it, check this article out too. It’s a bit longer, but worth your time. It’s by Catholic theologian William Cavanaugh:
godspy.com/faith/At-odds-with-the-pope-legitimate-authority-and-just-wars.cfm
 
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