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fix
Guest
You mean like the way so many change the meaning of scripture?
We can depend on the authority of the Church, but we cannot depend on the authority of thousands of differing interpretations.
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We can depend on the authority of the Church, but we cannot depend on the authority of thousands of differing interpretations.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Giver,
You still have not answered how one fulfilled God’s great command to love your neighbor as yourself in Old Testament. The whole Mosaic law is built on God’s command to love neighbor and God. How did Moses fulfill God’s command to love?
Do you believe that the Pope having Swiss Guard snippers is complete wicked defiance to your understanding what you call the “new” will of Jesus? Instead of being prepared to kill those who come to murder him, harm him or destroy his vatican, should the Pope “turn the other cheek” by sending his guards back to Switzerland? Would this be the fulfillment of “love” in your sence of the word love?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Why don’t you ask those that Jesus left in charge (see John 21:15-17) to shepard His flock – the apostles and their successors. Actually, you don’t have to ASK them because their answer can already be found in the CCC – which you refuse to believe on this matter.
Did not Jesus give ABSOLUTE authority to His church …
Matthew 16:19 - I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
… I don’t see any “if’s”, “and’s” or “but’s” in there. Yet you refuse to accept the teachings of the church on this matter thus doubting the words of Christ that He gave absolute authority to His church. So, in reality, it is YOU who do not believe Jesus.
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estesbob
Guest
Probably one of the the most misquoted scripture verses ever, Whenever it used the first part of the verse is almost always omited:
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people:”
The peace part doesnt come until the nation had been defeated.
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Giver
Guest
What is wrong with you all? Can’t you read, or don’t you understand plain English? Jesus told us how we are to treat our enemies and it doesn’t seem that anyone is listening.
(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who ** are listening**: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”
(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”
(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”
(Luke 6:27-29) “But I say this to you who ** are listening**: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. To the man who slaps you on one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes you cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic.”
(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”
(Matthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;”
(Matthew 5:38-39) “You have learnt how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well;”
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fix
Guest
Again, this issue, like so many others, comes down to authority. To whom shall I follow? Should it be one who privately interprets the bible as if he is infallible, or should I follow the Church Christ founded and speaks through?
It is very simple as you say, Christ left a living authority.
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777
Guest
Right said. We must forgive all, even if it means forgiving even the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Timmy Mc veigh (who’s not Scottish), even Bin Laden, etc.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
It amazes me how you accept the Word of Christ in certain areas when it comes to loving thy neighbor but don’t accept the Words of Christ when He gave absolute authority to His church to shepard His flock and their official position on this matter. But is you want to keep this purely scriptural, then reconcile your above quotes with these passages: * Leviticus 20:10 - And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
- Exodus 21:16 - And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
- Leviticus 20:11 - And the man that lieth with his father’s wife hath uncovered his father’s nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
- Exodus 21:17 - And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
- Leviticus 20:2 - Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
- Exodus 22:19 - Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
- Leviticus 19:20 - And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
- Exodus 31:14 - Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death
- Leviticus 20:12 - And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
- Exodus 31:15 - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
- Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
- Exodus 35:2 - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
- Leviticus 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
- Numbers 3:10 - And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest’s office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
- Leviticus 24:16 - And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
If killing is wrong, why did God command people to be put to death for certain actions? Answer me that! Keeping in mind that according to Malachi 3:6 & James 1:17, God does not change. God has always been absolutely perfect - God can become neither better or worse. God does not change; therefore what God says is right, or wrong, is for all time.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
*** Continued from PREVIOUS Post ***
777:
Sure sounds to me like God is telling people to kill despite the fifth commandment.
Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation." Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.”
So, obviously God is not against all war or killing.
And before you start quoting Jesus and MISUNDERSTANDING what He was saying, recall that Jesus is always in PERFECT AGREEMENT with the Father as noted in John 10:30. So you cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament because according to Malachi 3:6 & James 1:17, God does not change. God has always been absolutely perfect - God can become neither better or worse. God does not change; therefore what God says is right, or wrong, is for all time.
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for Godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).
Oh, really? Then why did God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). See also Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them–the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites–as the LORD your God has commanded you.”
Sure sounds to me like God is telling people to kill despite the fifth commandment.
Exodus 17:16 proclaims, “He said, For hands were lifted up to the throne of the LORD. The LORD will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation." Also, 1 Samuel 15:18, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.”
So, obviously God is not against all war or killing.
And before you start quoting Jesus and MISUNDERSTANDING what He was saying, recall that Jesus is always in PERFECT AGREEMENT with the Father as noted in John 10:30. So you cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament because according to Malachi 3:6 & James 1:17, God does not change. God has always been absolutely perfect - God can become neither better or worse. God does not change; therefore what God says is right, or wrong, is for all time.
Ecclesiastes 3:8 declares, “there is…a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. In a world filled with sin, hatred, and evil (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Some wars are more “just” than others, but all wars are ultimately the result of sin. Christians should not desire war, but neither are Christians to oppose the government God has placed in authority over them (Romans 13:1-4; 1Peter 2:17). The most important thing we can be doing in a time of war is to be praying for Godly wisdom for our leaders, praying for the safety of our military, praying for quick resolution to the conflict, and praying for minimum casualties – on both sides of the conflict (Philippians 4:6-7).
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estesbob
Guest
You are asking Christians to sign on to a suicde pact. They are to remain pacifist even when attacked? Even when threatened?
In addtion you are once more shackled by the false Doctine of “Sola Scriptura” You pull out those scripture verses that you beleive support your case, ignore those that dont and ignore 2,000 years of teachings concerning war.
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estesbob
Guest
Of course we must forgive them-what we are not reuqired to do is sit by while they rape and pillage our Country.
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Giver
Guest
The world needs an army, but a Christian is not of the world, and can’t be part of the world. (John 15:18-20) “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world, therefore the world hates you.”
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777
Guest
Sir Knight:
Not enuff proof
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777
Guest
Meaning?
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777
Guest
Which is why we must never love the world.
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Giver
Guest
There are people who believe their church has the authority to change the Word of God. Do you really believe that Peter had the right to change the Word of God? Do you think he would have allowed any teaching that wasn’t taught by Jesus? Jesus became man and died on a cross to give us a Word from the Father and we dare change that Word? From my understanding the Christian Church didn’t allow for war of any kind, just or not, for three hundred years. Then the Church changed the Word of God. What a mistake that was and is.
(John 12: 47-48) “If anyone hears my words and does not keep them faithfully, it is not I who shall condemn Him, since I have come not to condemn the world, but to save the world: he who rejects Me and refuses My words has his judge already, the word itself that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
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fix
Guest
The question then becomes whose interpretation should we follow? Yours or His Church?
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fix
Guest
His word was never changed by His Church. Your understanding is where the error enters.
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estesbob
Guest
That its OK to use military force to defend your country
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777
Guest
St. Pual wasn’t scared when his turn came.Ditto for the apostles.
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