Killing One To Save Another

[RedDuke50]

Let’s say that there was a situation where if one were to be killed or let die then another person would live. If not, then both would die. Would it still be considered a sin?
I saw a movie where two men were almost going to fall in an elevator shaft and the top man had to kick the bottom man off of him so they would not both be killed by the elevator.

Thank you

 

[CEM5]

Let’s say that there was a situation where if one were to be killed or let die then another person would live. If not, then both would die. Would it still be considered a sin?
I saw a movie where two men were almost going to fall in an elevator shaft and the top man had to kick the bottom man off of him so they would not both be killed by the elevator.

Thank you

What a dilema. I am sorry I don’t know the answer to that. I think because our natural instinct for self-preservation kicks in, certainly in circumstances of dire situations as described, I don’t *think *it would be a mortal sin. But imagine the guilt one would have later…

Anyways, that is only my opinion, and maybe someone else knows the Church’s stance in such dire circumstances.

 

[joshrp]

Let’s say that there was a situation where if one were to be killed or let die then another person would live. If not, then both would die. Would it still be considered a sin?
I saw a movie where two men were almost going to fall in an elevator shaft and the top man had to kick the bottom man off of him so they would not both be killed by the elevator.

Thank you

That was probably Poseidon right. I’d say just both die. It’s not worth living to sin.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Let’s say that there was a situation where if one were to be killed or let die then another person would live. If not, then both would die. Would it still be considered a sin?
I saw a movie where two men were almost going to fall in an elevator shaft and the top man had to kick the bottom man off of him so they would not both be killed by the elevator.

Thank you

I did not understand you elevator problem.
I am a good swimmer and I have saved several people in the sea.
The thinks I dread most (for I am not a life saver and the things happened to me by chance and I do not have a lefejcaket so I was swimming just with swimming trunks) is that someone grabs my neck (that is what they do) to keep himlself more secure. In that situation you cannot do anything and you both drown. Sorry, I cannot die so the other will die.It makes no sense. I kick the other out. It never happened to me but I dread thinking on that. Discussing the subject with friends, some suggested knocking the subject with a punch and then grabbing him by the back but I doubt it would be feasable.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

That was probably Poseidon right. I’d say just both die. It’s not worth living to sin.

Woah!!! Doom and gloom much? yeesh!

Better to live and serve the Lord!

You can’t kill someone to save another. However, you can use rational judgment as to whether the person can be “saved.” For example - your swimming one. If you’re trying to save a drowning person, swimming out to save them and having them kill you in their panic and you BOTH drown isn’t wise. Kocking the person out by an uppercut to the chin Sure! You aren’t obligated to go out there and get you both killed, but you should do everything you can to save that person.

 

[joshrp]

Woah!!! Doom and gloom much? yeesh!

Better to live and serve the Lord!

You can’t kill someone to save another. However, you can use rational judgment as to whether the person can be “saved.” For example - your swimming one. If you’re trying to save a drowning person, swimming out to save them and having them kill you in their panic and you BOTH drown isn’t wise. Kocking the person out by an uppercut to the chin Sure! You aren’t obligated to go out there and get you both killed, but you should do everything you can to save that person.

Look, honestly, you should look the person straight in the face and say “I will die with you. I’m not leaving you here to die alone.” Unless the person tells you to save yourself and believes in the Lord. Then maybe you can go and let them die. But honestly, tell that to the firefighters who ran into the Twin Towers. Are we such cowards that we are afraid to face the possiblity of death just to save ourselves. Have we all become Ayn Rands?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Look, honestly, you should look the person straight in the face and say “I will die with you. I’m not leaving you here to die alone.” Unless the person tells you to save yourself and believes in the Lord. Then maybe you can go and let them die. But honestly, tell that to the firefighters who ran into the Twin Towers. Are we such cowards that we are afraid to face the possiblity of death just to save ourselves. Have we all become Ayn Rands?

No, but let’s look at this here:

You have 3 kids and a wife at home. You are their sole support. Do you jump out and save a stranger from drowning and send them all into the welfare system (if they’re lucky!)?

Responsibility plays a role here. Obviously you should try to save people who need it. But dying with someone just to die with them seems a little…well, suicidal. Firefighters et al. are fighting to save people’s lives. They are trained to survive these encounters and accept the risk that comes with it. They don’t just see someone dying and go over to join them so as to say “better to die since it’s not worth living in sin.”

 

[joshrp]

No, but let’s look at this here:

You have 3 kids and a wife at home. You are their sole support. Do you jump out and save a stranger from drowning and send them all into the welfare system (if they’re lucky!)?

Responsibility plays a role here. Obviously you should try to save people who need it. But dying with someone just to die with them seems a little…well, suicidal. Firefighters et al. are fighting to save people’s lives. They are trained to survive these encounters and accept the risk that comes with it. They don’t just see someone dying and go over to join them so as to say “better to die since it’s not worth living in sin.”

Why wouldn;t you try to save a drowning person? We have lifeguards you know? If they can do it, we can at least try.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Why wouldn;t you try to save a drowning person? We have lifeguards you know? If they can do it, we can at least try.

Honestly, I would try to save a drowning person, but only if there were no lifeguard present. Lifeguards are trained how to save a drowning person – I am not. They know how to avoid being pulled under and killed in the process of the panicked person. I am not. If I couldn’t save a drowning person safely, then I’m going to try to find someone who can. Going out there and getting pulled under and BOTH of us dying does no one any good.

 

[joshrp]

Honestly, I would try to save a drowning person, but only if there were no lifeguard present. Lifeguards are trained how to save a drowning person – I am not. They know how to avoid being pulled under and killed in the process of the panicked person. I am not. If I couldn’t save a drowning person safely, then I’m going to try to find someone who can. Going out there and getting pulled under and BOTH of us dying does no one any good.

Are you scared of dying? If you did die trying to save him, do you think you would go to Heaven? If so, then what are you worried about?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Are you scared of dying? If you did die trying to save him, do you think you would go to Heaven? If so, then what are you worried about?

I’m worried about my husband at home who would be hurt beyond compare if I got myself killed trying to save a hysterical drowning person when I am not trained to do so safely. I couldn’t do that to him.

I would find someone adequately trained to save him so both could live if I could not safely rescue that person drowning.

It is horribly selfish of us to think that our lives are our own. If we die - our battle is over. We go home to our Heavenly Father and our pain is over. What our death does to others and those who love and rely on us is what we have to consider.

 

[Benadam]

hmmm…is an act of heroism sometimes necessary to avoid a sin of omission

Thinking…

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

hmmm…is an act of heroism sometimes necessary to avoid a sin of omission

Thinking…

I honestly think so! Although we have to differentiate between heroism to save another’s life and downright stupidity that gets two people killed rather than just one.

I read something once about a guy who fell off a cliff. His friend was drunk and though it’d be a good idea to jump after him to “save him.” This would be one such example of stupidity. Now, unless you’re superman…better to find another way to save your buddy.

 

[Benadam]

I honestly think so! Although we have to differentiate between heroism to save another’s life and downright stupidity that gets two people killed rather than just one.

I read something once about a guy who fell off a cliff. His friend was drunk and though it’d be a good idea to jump after him to “save him.” This would be one such example of stupidity. Now, unless you’re superman…better to find another way to save your buddy.

Ok lets go one more step. I agree it can be a sin to not be willing to risk life and limb to save the life of our neighbor. An act of heroism.

Is heroic virtue ever necessary to avoid a sin of ommission? Say not just risk our life but give it entirely, Father Maximillian Kolby comes to mind.

The guys in war who jump on grenades to keep it from killing their buddies come to mind now too.

hmmm
thinking…

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Ok lets go one more step. I agree it can be a sin to not be willing to risk life and limb to save the life of our neighbor. An act of heroism.

Is heroic virtue ever necessary to avoid a sin of ommission? Say not just risk our life but give it entirely, Father Maximillian Kolby comes to mind.

The guys in war who jump on grenades to keep it from killing their buddies come to mind now too.

hmmm
thinking…

Good point! I don’t think it would be a sin of omission not to jump on the grenade. It’s hard to do that! Survival instinct and all that. I do think that doing so is an extreme virtue that we all should strive for. I would hope that I would be such a person. I would hive my own life to save another. What I am talking about in previous posts is giving your life trying to save someone you can’t save. Like in the grenade scenario. If jumping on one grenade saves others - do it! If there are 5-6 grenades, jumpin on one won’t save anyone. In that scenario it’s probably better to shout “run like hell!!” and then take your own advice.

 

[Benadam]

Good point! I don’t think it would be a sin of omission not to jump on the grenade. It’s hard to do that! Survival instinct and all that. I do think that doing so is an extreme virtue that we all should strive for. I would hope that I would be such a person. I would hive my own life to save another. What I am talking about in previous posts is giving your life trying to save someone you can’t save. Like in the grenade scenario. If jumping on one grenade saves others - do it! If there are 5-6 grenades, jumpin on one won’t save anyone. In that scenario it’s probably better to shout “run like hell!!” and then take your own advice.

ok, so you’re hanging onto a bar and another person is hanging on to you and the fall is fatal.

If this other person doesn’t let go both of you will die.
I don’t think it would be a sin to kick that person off of you to save your own life.

If they know you are slipping they should be willing to let go maybe?

can you imagine having to ask them to let go?

 

[joshrp]

ok, so you’re hanging onto a bar and another person is hanging on to you and the fall is fatal.

If this other person doesn’t let go both of you will die.
I don’t think it would be a sin to kick that person off of you to save your own life.

If they know you are slipping they should be willing to let go maybe?

can you imagine having to ask them to let go?

That’s when you really start praying, I guess. Your in God’s hands then. Better just hang on and hope you don’t slip. Would you be comfortable killing someone to save your own life. In the movie, the man who kicked the guy hanging onto him basically gave up and said, I’m going to kick him and save myself. He was concerned more about his own life than anything else, especially God. You don’t sin to save your life! If you have a pregnancy that will kill you, you don’t abort the baby. Before we had procedures that would eliminate the danger to the mother without directly aborting the baby, the only option was for the mother to die with the baby. It is still a sin to abort the child to save your life. You life is not in your hands. You are called to be perfect, not to do what you want to do. God will take care of your family. You are not the provider for your family and the people you help, God is. You just want it to be your work and to take the credit if you think this way.

It’s a real tough dilemma, but I’m trying to take this hard line. I would try to save the person however I could. I would hope that I had that courage if I were ever in that position. So pray for me if I am ever put in that position. And I will pray for you if you are ever put in that situation. We;ve got to be creative, because if we are ever in such a situation, we are probably going to need to be creative real quickly. We need a sharp mind, to come up with a solution and act on it rapidly. It’s not enough to just speculate about what you would do in such a situation. Every situation is different.

I personally would want to save the person. If you were the one in danger and I couldn’t help you without putting myself in serious danger, I would do it anyways. Your family and friends are as important to me as mine are, and I don’t want to act like my life is more valuable than yours. I would go in and save you. That’s what Jesus did. He didn’t have to die on a Cross. He could’ve kept on teaching. But He wouldn’t have saved anyone if He had done that, now would He have? You are more important to me, than I am to myself, even though I don’t even know you. The Good Samaritan did not have to help the ambushed man. The people who ambushed him could have been lying in wait for someone to attack them. Why do you think the Levite and the priest walked by. Listen to the last speech Martin Luther King Jr gave before he was killed.

I would not think of what would happen to me if I helped you. I would be thinking of what would happen to you if I didn’t.

 

[acatnamedorangy]

You all know what the right thing to do would be in this elevator situation. You do everything in your power to save both of you. The reality is if you are in an elevator shaft if you worked together you might be able to swing to gab a ladder or a pipe in the shaft. You hold no guarantees in this situation. What if fighting with the other person exhausts you to not being able to hold on anymore yourself? This is absolutely one of those situations where you hold true to your faith and compassion and leave everything else in God’s hands.

 

[Benadam]

So the answer is it’s a sin to not allow the other person to hang on to you untill you both fall or you both make it? To do otherwise writes God out of the possible outcomes?

That sounds right to me too

What about the other person? Is it a sin to hang on? Have the same attitude ie; If I go down you go down if you make it I make it?

 

[joshrp]

So the answer is it’s a sin to not allow the other person to hang on to you untill you both fall or you both make it? To do otherwise writes God out of the possible outcomes?

That sounds right to me too

What about the other person? Is it a sin to hang on? Have the same attitude ie; If I go down you go down if you make it I make it?

You don’t worry about what the other person is doing to you. Worry about what you are doing to the other person.