Kim Davis

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I think she should have resigned her position. If I had a state or federal government job that shifted it’s practices to something I did not agree with because of my religion, I would resign. I don’t think it was appropriate for her to defy SOCTUS. They are wrong, in the eyes of many, but **they are the law of the land. ** Resigning in protest would have been the better move.
No, they are not. This is a huge misconception that Americans have about our system. Judicial Supremacy is a sham. It’s a political theory that has never existed, except when politically expedient for the faction controlling the court, and even then, requires enforcement from another branch. We heard the court’s opinion. The executive can just a easily ignore it, same for the legislature. I realize this can be a difficult subject for those who crave an infallible leader, but “Roma locuta est; causa finita est,” does not apply to American politics.
 
Is working at the DMV and elected position? If not, this isn’t a comparable analogy. But it wouldn’t be difficult to have an exemption for the Muslim worker, so long as another worker was available to perform the task. Accommodation is not difficult.
Okay then how about a Muslim Secretary of State?
 
You said doctors cannot refuse…and then you described exactly *how *they can refuse.
No. Familiarize yourself with the situation:
alexschadenberg.blogspot.com/2015/04/canadian-physicians-may-be-forced-to.html?m=1
Why should it be a way to specifically discourage Christians from holding office? Are Christians the only religion against same-sex marriage?
No.
I trust there are Jews and Muslims…and Atheists…and people of varying beliefs and religions who are not in support of same-sex marriage.
They, too, would be wisely discouraged from applying or taking this specific job.
Exactly. It’s not even just Christians. You’re saying that no public discussion may continue on the topic, that all who disagree must kindly can it. You’re imposing a test that essentially bans every conservative/traditional person from holding office. You have created a sub-class of citizens.
 
People do not suddenly lose the right to live their faith when they step outside their church/mosque/synagogue. Or as the Supreme Court even admits, they can’t just excise the “principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths, and to their own deep aspirations” from the inmost being each time they go to work. A Christian is a Christian at home and at work. A Muslim is a Muslim on a train or in a plane. A Buddhist is a Buddhist sitting down or walking about. A Humanist is a Humanist whether talking or listening. These paradigms, religious or otherwise, inform our decisions. They are the reason we have a Bill of Rights.

Conscience is so vital to a free society that the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that people cannot be forced to act against their consciences when there is no compelling interest for the government to make them. Even when a compelling interest exists, the government must provide reasonable accommodation where possible, or else show that no other means exists. For example: conscientious objectors to war cannot be drafted. Muslim workers at American Eagle are permitted to wear the hijab, against company policy. Sikh taxi drivers may refuse to transport alcohol. What’s wrong with providing a reasonable accommodation to Kim Davis? Why do the certificates have to have her signature? She wants to do the job, and she did it just fine before the laws (and her job description) changed. All it would take is, what? A quick amendment of a state statute? Easy-peasey. But it’s more politically expedient to drag this out: Democrats can bash the meanie traditionalists for their “homophobia” (never mind that Davis herself is a Democrat), and Republicans can score election points against the fascist hippies for jailing a martyr (never mind that they’d do the same if they still had any social capital). Cannibals. And Christians are the meal.

Basically, the Zeitgeist’s order for Christians is: conform or shut up, especially if you work a government job. Essentially, no traditionalist may be a county clerk. That’s got a legal name. It’s called a discriminatory test. It’s like making voters take a “literacy test” at the polls, or teachers swear an oath to the party and the Fuhrer. I fear traditionalists, including the religious, Classical Liberals, and others will become second-class, sub-citizens to the ruling Progressive Machine.

Of course, there’s so much more that I haven’t even touched on. Kim’s supporters range from the thoughtful and measured, to the sophomoric theocrats, to the flat-out bigoted. Same for her opponents. It’s a complex situation and too many parties are riding the wave to cash in.
This ^^^^^ 👍 As a classical Liberal, I totally agree!

As someone posted above, well, what if the Muslim guy doesn’t want his daughter/wife driving… The thing is that’s okay in my book. However, at the same time, I believe that we should encourage policies of integration and assimilation into Western society.

These days, there are way too many Westerners who actively HATE the West and Western values and encourage immigrants to hold too closely to their former culture (instead of fully integrating into our society).

(Personally, I’d insert America instead of Western, but I know that not CAF members are in America…so just trying to include everyone who considers themselves part of the Western world.)

Culture, language, borders. These things matter and if we teach people to disrespect the society they are in, guess what, they are going to do it. We are reaping what “progressives” have sown.

The expectation is that 2nd generation immigrants will be more integrated than their parents and that their parents came here because they wanted to live in a more liberal society.

However, in reality, that expectation falls short. It’s no wonder that the Muslim guy thinks that it’s okay to treat women badly when we won’t even say that we like and need Western values because of the implied threat of being labeled xenophobic and racist (or another “ist”).

Too many people like to play the “I’m being disrespected” card when in fact people are saying “I disagree with you, but I’m okay with you as a person.” It’s sad that people really don’t know the difference.

I don’t agree with gay marriage. You can have one - just don’t force me to participate in it.

I don’t see how that’s hateful, except for the fact that Progressives have decided that everyone must agree that gay marriage is good or else you will be threatened with the loss of business, reputation and possibly freedom.

Yeah…that’s not very liberal. In fact, that seems rather totalitarian to me, but hey…who am I too judge? right?

A lot of people really don’t know how to disagree without being disagreeable these days.
 
Ahhh, her name. Still there.

But for the document to be legal, you need the name of an issuing clerk on it, right?
You’d think so, but apparently not. While Mrs. Davis was in jail her deputy clerks were issuing licenses to gay and straight couples without the clerk’s signature. However, once she returns to her job they will want her signature on the licenses so it makes no sense. 🤷

Hopefully, the state legislature will come up with a legal remedy so things like this don’t have to happen in the future.
 
You’d think so, but apparently not. While Mrs. Davis was in jail her deputy clerks were issuing licenses to gay and straight couples without the clerk’s signature. However, once she returns to her job they will want her signature on the licenses so it makes no sense. 🤷

Hopefully, the state legislature will come up with a legal remedy so things like this don’t have to happen in the future.
Exactly. Why isn’t the liberal side even open to the idea of legal remedy and compromise so that one does not have to violate one’s convictions? It would be a win-win situation, but of course, anything less than full acceptance cannot be tolerated by the gay lobby.

I hear “human rights”, “discrimination”, “bigotry” etc — none of which applies in this case, but I guess if you parrot those words, enough people will buy into the false narrative of “injustice”.
 
Still confused. I see liitle from USCCB or the Pope on this. Where do we draw the line? Are Catholics banned from public service? Remember assisted suicide is looming. Will a Catholic doctor at a county hospital have to choose?
Disappointed that Kim is out of jail. This must go to court.
This was a great example - candidly, I had not thought of it that way - very thought provoking. thank you

Blessings,

Brian
 
Ideally she should be fired. But since it is an elected office, she either can be arrested or impeached should she try at it again. I’m sympathetic if it is a private business, but a public entity should enforce the laws as they have been officially interpreted.
So you disagree with Article VI section 3 of the constitution that says a religious test for public office is forbidden.

So you’ll be requiring people to adhere to doctrines as a test of getting a job.
But the biggest “ah-ha” moment comes when we read more about this case. We find that this not a Church/State issue at all; this is an issue of conscience. She’s not targeting LGBT folks; she’s halting all marriage licenses. She says she’ll happily give out marriage certificates to anyone – if she can remove her name from the certificate. That’s all she wants. While her personal reason is rooted in her religious convictions, that’s only tangential. She cannot in good conscience condone gay marriage. Having her name on the certificate is, to her conscience, tantamount to condoning the act. That is something that even the Supreme Court ruled she needn’t do:

People do not suddenly lose the right to live their faith when they step outside their church/mosque/synagogue. Or as the Supreme Court even admits, they can’t just excise the “principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths, and to their own deep aspirations” from the inmost being each time they go to work. A Christian is a Christian at home and at work. A Muslim is a Muslim on a train or in a plane. A Buddhist is a Buddhist sitting down or walking about. A Humanist is a Humanist whether talking or listening. These paradigms, religious or otherwise, inform our decisions. They are the reason we have a Bill of Rights.

Conscience is so vital to a free society that the Supreme Court has consistently ruled that people cannot be forced to act against their consciences when there is no compelling interest for the government to make them. Even when a compelling interest exists, the government must provide reasonable accommodation where possible, or else show that no other means exists. For example: conscientious objectors to war cannot be drafted. Muslim workers at American Eagle are permitted to wear the hijab, against company policy. Sikh taxi drivers may refuse to transport alcohol. What’s wrong with providing a reasonable accommodation to Kim Davis? Why do the certificates have to have her signature? She wants to do the job, and she did it just fine before the laws (and her job description) changed. All it would take is, what? A quick amendment of a state statute? Easy-peasey. But it’s more politically expedient to drag this out: Democrats can bash the meanie traditionalists for their “homophobia” (never mind that Davis herself is a Democrat), and Republicans can score election points against the fascist hippies for jailing a martyr (never mind that they’d do the same if they still had any social capital). Cannibals. And Christians are the meal.
Just Christians being thrown to the lions again.
So long as the First Amendment is part of the Constitution, conscience should remain supreme. But I am not confident it will. There is a progressive militancy that looks to abandon the Supreme Court’s ‘be-Progressive-but-still-play-nice’ decision in Obergefell. Calls have gone up to tax churches and schools. Anti-Christian polemics already circulate on Facebook and Buzzfeed (their recent video suggests the only “good” Christian is either a liberal “cafeteria Christian,” or a silent one). Christian groups are required to pay for contraceptives and abortifacients in their insurance plans. Catholics have already given up their adoption agency because they’d be forced to serve those who don’t share their views.
Christianophobia is one of the last remaining acceptable bigotries.
Basically, the Zeitgeist’s order for Christians is: conform or shut up, especially if you work a government job. Essentially, no traditionalist may be a county clerk. That’s got a legal name. It’s called a discriminatory test. It’s like making voters take a “literacy test” at the polls, or teachers swear an oath to the party and the Fuhrer. I fear traditionalists, including the religious, Classical Liberals, and others will become second-class, sub-citizens to the ruling Progressive Machine.
Or a religious test in violation of Article VI section 3 of the constitution.
 
Exactly. Why isn’t the liberal side even open to the idea of legal remedy and compromise so that one does not have to violate one’s convictions? It would be a win-win situation, but of course, anything less than full acceptance cannot be tolerated by the gay lobby.

I hear “human rights”, “discrimination”, “bigotry” etc — none of which applies in this case, but I guess if you parrot those words, enough people will buy into the false narrative of “injustice”.
Because Christianophobia is the last acceptable prejudice out there among the left.
 
So you disagree with Article VI section 3 of the constitution that says a religious test for public office is forbidden.

So you’ll be requiring people to adhere to doctrines as a test of getting a job.

Just Christians being thrown to the lions again.

Christianophobia is one of the last remaining acceptable bigotries.

Or a religious test in violation of Article VI section 3 of the constitution.
It’s not a religious test, it’s performing the job. Her job is simply that of the county clerk signing off that the couple presenting themselves for a license meet the states criteria, not hers, the states.
 
It’s not a religious test, it’s performing the job. Her job is simply that of the county clerk signing off that the couple presenting themselves for a license meet the states criteria, not hers, the states.
Yes, I agree. People are trying too hard to act as though the State should support her rights. The State already passed law to issue gay marriage lisence. She had no legal right to refuse them. So in order to uphold her conscience to God, she must suffer while NOT breaking the law.

If it is God’s will that she be an instrument for his justice, then He will see it through, but not by breaking the law.
 
Is working at the DMV and elected position? If not, this isn’t a comparable analogy. But it wouldn’t be difficult to have an exemption for the Muslim worker, so long as another worker was available to perform the task. Accommodation is not difficult.
Let’s find a comparable situation. What if the Rowan County clerk was a Muslim and a heterosexual couple came to her to get married and the woman was Muslim but the man was Christian. So could this Muslim clerk legitimately refuse to issue a marriage license because according to Islam which is her religion, a Muslim woman cannot marry a non-Muslim man? And BTW, I do know of Muslim born women in the US who have married non-Muslim men even though it is against traditional Islam and their families have objected. Would it be the business of such a county clerk who was a Muslim to impose her own religious beliefs on such a couple seeking a license? (and there are liberal Muslims, too, so Muslim women seeking to marry a non-Muslim do exist).
 
How about it? 🤷
Really, it that hard to understand, should a Muslim Secretary of State (an elected position) be allowed to deny driver licenses to women because it would violate his conscience? Why or why not?
 
Is working at the DMV and elected position? If not, this isn’t a comparable analogy. But it wouldn’t be difficult to have an exemption for the Muslim worker, so long as another worker was available to perform the task. Accommodation is not difficult.
So no law just religious anarchy with each individual allowed to impose their own religious beliefs on non members.

I’m sorry you’ll have to go to register 1, 3, 6, 7, 8 or 12 for your meat, unless you want pork then go to either register 3, 6, 7 or 12 then to register 9 for your alcohol, then register 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 14 or the service desk for your condoms and by the way don’t take that racy underwear to register 5 it won’t fly with her.
 
So you disagree with Article VI section 3 of the constitution that says a religious test for public office is forbidden.

So you’ll be requiring people to adhere to doctrines as a test of getting a job.
No, not at all. What religion am I enforcing? What an absolutely ridiculous charge as well as an extremely poor understanding of US law.

Davis is entitled to a reasonable accommodation for her religious beliefs from her employer. Changing the entirety of the marriage license legal process to where her name is not on the certificate is NOT a reasonable accommodation. Nor is continuing to pay her while she effectively infringes upon the rights of others a reasonable accommodation either.

She’s no martyr. She should resign because she is nothing more than an embarrassment to the faith.
 
Personally, I think all of this could have been settled a long time ago if she had competent lawyers.

These guys are just flailing about. They seem to be focusing on the wrong things, and I believe they are using her as their pawn.
 
I guess the question I have is, If she signs the certificate, is she participating in or promoting an immoral act? If everyone is expected to resign rather than give in to everything the “enlightened” progressives want, where does it stop? If accommodations and compromises cannot be made now, this sets a precedent that no sincerely-held belief can be used (e.g., doctors must perform abortions or resign, hospitals should perform abortions or lose federal funding, adoption agencies have to assent to gay couples, etc).

Also, for elected officials, do the voice of the people matter at all? A little bit?

Yes, it’s a slippery slope, but haven’t we gone down far enough to know that we’re halfway down the slope?
 
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