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FabiusMaximus
Guest
Well technically it is a little more complicated than that. The Church of England in Henry’s own time was not very different from the Roman Catholic Church. More than anything Henry desired that the Church would swing his way when he wanted.
If you look at the history of his relationship with his six wives, he uses very Catholic determinations in deciding to dissolve his marriage.
Catherine of Aragon?: Invalid marriage, married to his brother. Annulled.
Anne Boleyn?: Committed incest with brother, had sex with others before marriage. Marriage annulled.
Jane Seymour died in childbirth.
Anne of Cleves: marriage never consummated. Annulled.
Catherine Howard: Possible pre-contract of marriage before marrying Henry VIII. Marriage considered invalid and annulled.
Catherine Howard: survived.
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masuwerte
Guest
To be fair to the Episcopal Church, one should read its catechism (found in the back of the current Book of Common Prayer), not Bp Spong.
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GKC
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GKC
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cheezey
Guest
Thank you…
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GKC
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!!!
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Izdaari
Guest
OVerisimilitude,
I share all the theological concerns you mentioned, but I didn’t start out Catholic, have never been Catholic. Instead, my previous church experience has been mainly Baptist and Pentecostal.
But I’m Episcopalian now (and ELCA Lutheran, since my parish has both formal affiliations), have been for almost a year, and it suits me very well. I can’t say that it would work as well for you, but I think you’re asking the right questions. May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you think this over.
I share all the theological concerns you mentioned, but I didn’t start out Catholic, have never been Catholic. Instead, my previous church experience has been mainly Baptist and Pentecostal.
But I’m Episcopalian now (and ELCA Lutheran, since my parish has both formal affiliations), have been for almost a year, and it suits me very well. I can’t say that it would work as well for you, but I think you’re asking the right questions. May God grant you wisdom and discernment as you think this over.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I’m a former Protestant who converted to the Catholic Church around 1996 or 1997, from a Protestant position (Presbyterian with a brief fling in the Wesleyan Methodists and a Baptist wife). My Presbyterian pastor was a Methodist by training.
Now I have issues regarding “infallibility” (a doctrine which as far as I’m concerned is not necessary, and should not have been promulgated). I also don’t agree with the ban on contraceptives especially the Pill.
However I think the Catholic Church is “Closest” to the truth and for that reason I’ll be staying there. I’ve got a brain of my own, and as far as I’m concerned, God expects me to think for myself. That’s what He gave it to me for, and that’s the same reason He gave everyone else a brain.
So if anything, I’ve had to go against the grain to join the Catholic Church. When we married we were both Protestant. I’ve got good Protestant friends, no doubt some of whom think I’m mistaken. But the longer I’m in the Catholic Church, the more it makes sense, even if the Protestants are often more enthusiastic and sincere.
The OP has obviously done a lot research on these issues but the fact remains that his research is filtered through two lenses - one is his Aspergus syndrome, which means he probably becomes obsessive ie. “I have to make a decision based on this thinking” and not allow gray areas to co-exist. I’m prepared to differ with the church on contraception for example, and still stay a member. Likewise “Infallibility” - I wonder why the story of Christ rebuking Peter as “Satan” immediately after declaring Him the “Rock” is in the record. One almost sees a slightly cynical Christ foreseeing a future Pope declariing himself “infallibile” when Peter demonstrably wasn’t. But that’s for another thread.
I also don’t have a problem with married clergy. The wisest, most prophetic man I’ve ever met was a married pastor. If the Protestants can run their churches quite successfully with married clergy, then I fail to see whn the Catholic Church cannot do likewise.
The other filter is his Anglican fiance. I’d be surprised if she hasn’t had some influence, with all due respect.
I did hear a female Anglican pastor preach when we stayed with Anglican friends earlier this year during Easter. And to be honest, there seemed to be something missing.
If I were the OP, I’d stay with the Catholic Church, because in the long run, I think it’s **“closest” **to the truth, and will remain so. It’s also the church Christ founded on Peter, and there is no other.
Now I have issues regarding “infallibility” (a doctrine which as far as I’m concerned is not necessary, and should not have been promulgated). I also don’t agree with the ban on contraceptives especially the Pill.
However I think the Catholic Church is “Closest” to the truth and for that reason I’ll be staying there. I’ve got a brain of my own, and as far as I’m concerned, God expects me to think for myself. That’s what He gave it to me for, and that’s the same reason He gave everyone else a brain.
So if anything, I’ve had to go against the grain to join the Catholic Church. When we married we were both Protestant. I’ve got good Protestant friends, no doubt some of whom think I’m mistaken. But the longer I’m in the Catholic Church, the more it makes sense, even if the Protestants are often more enthusiastic and sincere.
The OP has obviously done a lot research on these issues but the fact remains that his research is filtered through two lenses - one is his Aspergus syndrome, which means he probably becomes obsessive ie. “I have to make a decision based on this thinking” and not allow gray areas to co-exist. I’m prepared to differ with the church on contraception for example, and still stay a member. Likewise “Infallibility” - I wonder why the story of Christ rebuking Peter as “Satan” immediately after declaring Him the “Rock” is in the record. One almost sees a slightly cynical Christ foreseeing a future Pope declariing himself “infallibile” when Peter demonstrably wasn’t. But that’s for another thread.
I also don’t have a problem with married clergy. The wisest, most prophetic man I’ve ever met was a married pastor. If the Protestants can run their churches quite successfully with married clergy, then I fail to see whn the Catholic Church cannot do likewise.
The other filter is his Anglican fiance. I’d be surprised if she hasn’t had some influence, with all due respect.
I did hear a female Anglican pastor preach when we stayed with Anglican friends earlier this year during Easter. And to be honest, there seemed to be something missing.
If I were the OP, I’d stay with the Catholic Church, because in the long run, I think it’s **“closest” **to the truth, and will remain so. It’s also the church Christ founded on Peter, and there is no other.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hi OVerisimilitude.
Here are your disagreements/doubts with the Church:
Perhaps if you want to be a priest but want to marry, #1 may be a biggie. In reality, it does not because these are two different vocations and if you are deciding one of them, the other would be naturally not compatible. I understand your reason, and married priests may be a breath of fresh air to the Church but many Catholics would rather have celibate priests. It seems so natural that way for priests. I am not going into how a man must please two masters but the institution of celibate priests has been affirmed in a very long time and it is something to be proud of that the Church does not change.
You said “we could govern the church more or less any way we like”. It is certainly a recipe for chaos.
As Catholics, the Church claiming to be a true church should make us happy so how is that could be a reason for leaving the Church?
The Church infallibility should not bother us too much if we learn to submit to authority. And it is Biblical too.
Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you. Heb 13:17
I think as a Catholic the one that could really trouble you is Marian spirituality. But remember for the most part, it is a devotion and therefore not an obligation for everybody.
I think you should pray hard about leaving the faith as your problem with the Church is not insurmountable. One of the posters above, benjohnson, gives a very good advice.
“ … then I would urge caution in that it might be wise not to trade one set of grievances for a different set of grievances.”
God bless.
Here are your disagreements/doubts with the Church:
- Male-only priesthood
- How we treat Mary officially
- I am not a terribly big fan of the monarchical model. I am well aware that the monarchic bishop is not a teaching, and that we could govern the church more or less any way we like, but it really appeals to me.
- Infallibility really bothers me
- Catholic claims regarding itself as the true church
Perhaps if you want to be a priest but want to marry, #1 may be a biggie. In reality, it does not because these are two different vocations and if you are deciding one of them, the other would be naturally not compatible. I understand your reason, and married priests may be a breath of fresh air to the Church but many Catholics would rather have celibate priests. It seems so natural that way for priests. I am not going into how a man must please two masters but the institution of celibate priests has been affirmed in a very long time and it is something to be proud of that the Church does not change.
You said “we could govern the church more or less any way we like”. It is certainly a recipe for chaos.
As Catholics, the Church claiming to be a true church should make us happy so how is that could be a reason for leaving the Church?
The Church infallibility should not bother us too much if we learn to submit to authority. And it is Biblical too.
Obey your prelates, and be subject to them. For they watch as being to render an account of your souls; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief. For this is not expedient for you. Heb 13:17
I think as a Catholic the one that could really trouble you is Marian spirituality. But remember for the most part, it is a devotion and therefore not an obligation for everybody.
I think you should pray hard about leaving the faith as your problem with the Church is not insurmountable. One of the posters above, benjohnson, gives a very good advice.
“ … then I would urge caution in that it might be wise not to trade one set of grievances for a different set of grievances.”
God bless.
L
LEMAITRE
Guest
OP,
From your posts you’re kinda already on the way out and sounds to me like your mind is already made up.
You don’t really need our opinion or want us to talk you out of it after all you were in a seminary and appear to have a grasp of Church teachings. Make up your own mind.
I will keep you in my prayers. Good luck on your journey
From your posts you’re kinda already on the way out and sounds to me like your mind is already made up.
You don’t really need our opinion or want us to talk you out of it after all you were in a seminary and appear to have a grasp of Church teachings. Make up your own mind.
I will keep you in my prayers. Good luck on your journey
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OVerisimilitude
Guest
I assure you my mind is far from made up. As I wrote, everything in the first two posts are things on my mind and not firmly held positions, and I concluded by saying that I am trying very hard to remember that I do not know everything and am not the wisest man to ever live, and try to remain open to being taught.OP,
From your posts you’re kinda already on the way out and sounds to me like your mind is already made up.
You don’t really need our opinion or want us to talk you out of it after all you were in a seminary and appear to have a grasp of Church teachings. Make up your own mind.
I will keep you in my prayers. Good luck on your journey
No rash decisions are being made, and I at the present hour have no plans to leave my church.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Your posts sound reasonable. Things such as this need lots of prayers which I am sure you’re doing. Keep on doing it and really look into the depth of your heart and ask the Lord to tell you.
We can only say as much but ultimately it is your decision. Do heed some of the advice here for they are reasonable too and some are truly gems. Give them a thought especially through prayers. We are nothing on our own. It is because of God that makes who we are. We are nothing on our own authority but it by the authority of God makes who we are. We cannot see God and submitting to his authority can sometime be merely token face value but we can to people whom God has chosen to have authority over us. We are only as good as the authority we derive from.
Be blessed.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Imho you should pick one your many issue’s and put it up for a topic.
If I had a indictment sheet like that, I say, I would have serious doubt about my own reality in church life also.
- Male-only priesthood
- How we treat Mary officially
- I am not a terribly big fan of the monarchical model. I am well aware that the monarchic bishop is not a teaching, and that we could govern the church more or less any way we like, but it really appeals to me.
- Infallibility really bothers me
- Catholic claims regarding itself as the true church
If I had a indictment sheet like that, I say, I would have serious doubt about my own reality in church life also.
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liquidayno
Guest
I recently converted to Catholicism. When I was welcomed into the Church I had to stand in front and confess that I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches and commit to submitting to it. Your position above does not sound like you feel that way as you dissent from the Church on 2 important issues. Are your thoughts listed above something that have developed since your confession of beleiving everything at your welcoming into the Church or did you not have to confess like I did (or did you just not mean it?)?
I continue to be surprised at how many Catholics don’t agree with the Church, probably because of bad Cathechisation.
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Indifferently
Guest
The OP pretty much set out precisely the reasons why I am a member of the Church of England.
If the Roman Catholic Church was a political party, I would join since I share pretty much all of its political views. However, it is not merely there to define its members’ relationship with the world. It is there, perhaps even more importantly, to determine their relationship with Almighty God. Since my views are often at variance with it, it would be wrong of me to become a part of it.
Comparing the EF Mass, which I suppose is the most authentic expression of Roman Catholicism, with the 1662 Prayer Book, settles the question for me.
If the Roman Catholic Church was a political party, I would join since I share pretty much all of its political views. However, it is not merely there to define its members’ relationship with the world. It is there, perhaps even more importantly, to determine their relationship with Almighty God. Since my views are often at variance with it, it would be wrong of me to become a part of it.
Comparing the EF Mass, which I suppose is the most authentic expression of Roman Catholicism, with the 1662 Prayer Book, settles the question for me.
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asd72
Guest
I think it is advisable to start with the question of authority. Is the Church of England the original Apostolic Church that Jesus formed by giving authority to the Apostles. If yes, you must align your views with the Church.
Starting with your views and finding a Church to match is common. Secular society often makes that mistake, it thinks the Church should change it’s morals to meet modern society, and the Catholic Church has stayed firm
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Indifferently
Guest
This raises a whole host of questions. You are predicating the question itself on Catholic theological assumptions, which I do not share.
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asd72
Guest
No I’m not. Jesus started a Church with 12 Apostles, that Apostolic Church was split into Catholic and Orthodox. I would agree the Church of England contains as much truth as it received from the Catholic Church.
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