King David not very likeable (did he rape Bathsheba?)

[TULIPed]

He wouldn’t have done anything great either.

And we probably wouldn’t have this from one of the - if not the - greatest poet of all time:

“ 1 Praise the Lord, my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
2 Praise the Lord, my soul,
and forget not all his benefits—
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.”

This is a guy who knew what the pit felt like - and what the back of an eagle felt like.

 

[Polak]

It’s not fair to fault David for eating a good meal after his son died when he had just spent a week fasting and pleading for the boy’s life

Actually I find that entire scene very troubling. Once the baby died he began to eat. When asked why he is eating now, he basically said he hoped God would feel sorry for him and keep the baby alive, but now that’s the child is dead, there is no longer any need to fast. Then after his mea, he went to have sexual relations with his wife.

It sounds like he was trying to emotionally manipulate God, and when that didn’t work, just got back to normal life again. No mourning after the death of his child?

I do not wish this on anybody of course, but think about it, if your child had just died, would go and have a feast and then sleep with your spouse, right after that? I doubt it.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

if your child had just died, would go and have a feast and then sleep with your spouse, right after that? I doubt it.

Unless you have actually had a child die, you have no idea what you or your spouse would do or how you would react. Spouses might want to be close. A hungry person who has been fasting might want something to eat; they also might be feeling like they will faint if they don’t eat.

i don’t think you should be imposing your judgment of what you think people should do after a death on everybody else. It’s not like David was doing this in a joyful mood like he was having a party. He had been fasting all week. The Scripture also frames his interaction with his wife as him comforting her. It’s not out of the question that grieving parents might want to be close and that might include, or naturally segue into, having relations.

I personally find this part of the Scripture to be very human. Almost like a modern novel to be honest.

 

[Polak]

Completely disagree with you on this and it isn’t judgment, it is my opinion on somebody else’s actions, that I have a right to have.

I find after the loss of a child, or loved on in general, people tend not to want to eat, and are certainly not in any mood to sleep with each other.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I felt the same when my parents died. Both of them had been sick on and off for a while and it had caused a lot of personal and family disruption. Both of them had reached the point where they didn’t have any good quality of life left and the individual situations were pretty horrific. I also didn’t get to just sit down and collapse when it was over, I had to do a lot of the dealing with the funeral home and in the case of my mom I had to plan the funeral and do other things all by myself. You can darn well bet I ate during that time. And took some time out to do some non-death-related things. And felt guilty because I was relieved that it was all over.

 

[Polak]

I don’t want to tell anyone here how they should react in situations like this but in the case of this king, who I already have a poor opinion of, this doesn’t help.

The whole ‘what’s the point in fasting now when he’s dead’ line (I’m obviously paraphrasing) and then sleeping with his wife soon after, almost like ‘well, that baby’s dead so might as well make another’ just doesn’t sit right with me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Okay, so you don’t like King David. That’s your preference. I’m pretty sure we could all point to people in Scripture who we don’t relate to very well. I personally think David was okay but his son Solomon was a real piece of work. I don’t respect a man who’s a huge womanizer and puts his sex life ahead of God. I don’t expect everyone else to agree with me.

Just don’t let it blind you to the actual lessons God is trying to teach you through inspired Scripture.

 

[TULIPed]

It sounds like he was trying to emotionally manipulate God, and when that didn’t work, just got back to normal life again. No mourning after the death of his child?

In a vacuum I would agree with your analysis. However, when juxtaposed with the rest of David’s actions and works, I think there’s a different conclusion to be drawn. For example - see this from Psalm 51:

Psalm 51[a]​

For the director of music. A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.​

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;
so you are right in your verdict
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place."

 

[porthos11]

I don’t want to tell anyone here how they should react in situations like this but in the case of this king, who I already have a poor opinion of, this doesn’t help.

The whole ‘what’s the point in fasting now when he’s dead’ line (I’m obviously paraphrasing) and then sleeping with his wife soon after, almost like ‘well, that baby’s dead so might as well make another’ just doesn’t sit right with me.

Well, given that he was fasting for the recovery of his child for at least several days, one would think a simple meal after his child’s death would not be unreasonable. Further, there is no indication as to the time between the death of the first child and when he had relations with Bathsheba again.

In any case, your “poor opinion” is not shared by his descendant Jesus, nor the inspired authors of the New Testament, nor by the heavenly hosts of heaven.

And lastly, SAINT David, King (Dec. 29), pray for us.

 

[Polak]

Okay, so you don’t like King David. That’s your preference. I’m pretty sure we could all point to people in Scripture who we don’t relate to very well. I personally think David was okay but his son Solomon was a real piece of work. I don’t respect a man who’s a huge womanizer and puts his sex life ahead of God. I don’t expect everyone else to agree with me.

I’ll get to Solomon.

 

[Buks]

David has great qualities like contrition, and had of course a special role in history from God, but IMO he doesn’t need to be admired in the same way as saints who were more consistently virtuous. I would have similar esteem for persons from any “walk of life” who committed the same wrongs and also repented, and also went forward to serve to the best of their ability.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

he doesn’t need to be admired in the same way as saints who were more consistently virtuous.

King David is considered a saint though.
Remember that he lived a long time prior to Jesus’ appearance on earth, so he did not have a human example of “saintly” behavior.
There are many ways they lived back then, that we would not emulate today, not only because the culture has changed but because Jesus told us to live differently.

 

[Buks]

Thanks. It was just today in this thread actually that I learned he is a saint!
I certainly admire his faith, and he had a spiritual life that is obviously way beyond my own; it’s just that I’m worried about a double standard for great individuals, like with society’s treatment of popular people (stars). Their worst behavior is just as base as anyone’s. Anyway, there’s my $0.02.

 

[porthos11]

Thanks. It was just today in this thread actually that I learned he is a saint!
I certainly admire his faith, and he had a spiritual life that is obviously way beyond my own; it’s just that I’m worried about a double standard for great individuals, like with society’s treatment of popular people (stars). Their worst behavior is just as base as anyone’s. Anyway, there’s my $0.02.

What double standard? David suffered greatly for this sin. Well beyond the death of his first son by Bathsheba, David’s house suffered strife from that time on until his death. Nathan condemned him to his face, and in fact indirectly sentenced him to death. It’s only his repentance that caused Nathan to spare his life.

People should, rather than point fingers at David or anyone else, point fingers at their own souls and their own sins. Our own sins. David had his sins, but we have ours. It does not matter that we did not murder anyone to get his wife. Sin is sin, and unless one is qualified to cast the first stone, we have no business condemning Saint King David, a man after God’s own heart.

 

[Buks]

@porthos11
I’ve never condemned David, or anything remotely like condemning him. I don’t think you understood my comments, but it doesn’t matter.

 

[porthos11]

I’ve never condemned David, or anything remotely like condemning him. I don’t think you understood my comments, but it doesn’t matter.

The condemning part was really more directed toward’s the thread’s theme than at you directly.

And on that same point, that is, the thread’s overarching theme, and not you particularly, I also think people should read and understand the Bible in its entirety before forming (and voicing) short-sighted opinions based on what they’ve read up to a point. Sure, it’s easy to condemn David for his sins if one doesn’t read past that into the rest of the books, and see how David is held up as the standard of “having done right in the sight of the Lord”, and what he wrote, afterwards, especially Psalm 51 which is still prayed by the Church to this day.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think the overarching problem is that people expect Scripture to be an easy read where the good guys are all good and the bad guys are all bad and God never does anything that seems confusing or unfair (according to the standards of the person reading).

Human life isn’t that simple, and Scripture isn’t that simple.

 

[porthos11]

I think the overarching problem is that people expect Scripture to be an easy read where the good guys are all good and the bad guys are all bad and God never does anything that seems confusing or unfair (according to the standards of the person reading).

Human life isn’t that simple, and Scripture isn’t that simple.

That’s what’s called in writing class “one-dimensional characters”. They make for lousy storytelling. Or Hallmark movies.

Real people are multidimensional and real life is messy.

This thread is really just an example of-- paraphrasing Fr. Mitch Pacwa–condemning people for sins I don’t commit. That is, “I don’t like King David because he commits sins I don’t commit.” It’s easy to point a finger at a sinner when you don’t commit those same sins.

Jesus teaches us his own lesson in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. “Thank you, Lord that I don’t commit the same sins that guy does. Thank you that I’m not an adulterer and a murderer. Just a porn addict (hypothetically), sure, but I can live with that. Maybe a liar (hypothetically) too. And sure, maybe (insert other favourite sin here). But not an adulterer and a murderer, oh goodness, no! Unlike that awful, awful man David.”

 

[dochawk]

if your child had just died, would go and have a feast and then sleep with your spouse, right after that?

I believe that the reproductive urge in response to death or near-deaths very well documented . . .

And it is very unreasonable to expect someone to be in their normal mind when losing a child . . .

I felt the same when my parents died.

when my grandmother died, the physicians told my father that the particular virus/bug that did it was known as “the old person’s friend” or some such–it was quick and relatively painless, hitting those suffering in their final days.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Not making excuses for King David but it is just as believable that Bathsheba knew that King David would be able to see her and she gave him a “show” to entice him to want to sleep with her. No reason to believe he raped her.