King James Bible?

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It’s OK to read parts of it to better know how to convert people that are not Catholic.

But as for devotional reading stay away from it. The heresy in it is supported by Satan.
 
I have an interesting side trivia. The original translators of the Rheims NT and Douai OT were of the opinion that a translation of the Bible should be slavishly faithful to the point that if one finds an obscure or ambiguous passage in the original text, the translation should never attempt to clarify but must instead keep fidelity to the original and thus be obscure and ambiguous as well, with the various options for understanding the text discussed in a marginal note: “we presume not in hard places to modifie the speaches or phrases, but religiously keepe them word for word, and point for point, for feare of missing or restraining the sense of the holy Ghost to our phantasie.
That’s an excellent policy, I think. Jude 8 is a good example: the Douay-Rheims has “blaspheme majesty”; the KJV “speak evil of dignities”, the NKJV “speak evil of dignitaries”, the ESV “blaspheme the glorious ones”, and so on. Well, which is it?? The NKJV interpretation, for instance, is a major stretch from what I can see
This was one of their main bones to pick with many Protestant translations (such as the Geneva Bible, the primary Bible of the 16th century English Protestant movement before the KJV came out - in fact, the reason why the KJV was commissioned in the first place was because King James I, as well as other CofE folks, disliked the very Calvinistic and Puritan character of the Geneva Bible so much!), in that they strive to render the original text in clear English at the cost of fidelity to the text. Previous English versions had improperly imputed clear meanings for obscure passages in the Greek, where the Latin Vulgate had often tended to rather render the Greek literally, even to the extent of generating improper Latin constructions.
That’s amusing, because, side by side, I found the Geneva and KJV very similar - except that the former read flatter by comparison. Probably another reason why it hasn’t been popular since the latter’s release.
 
That’s an excellent policy, I think. Jude 8 is a good example: the Douay-Rheims has “blaspheme majesty”; the KJV “speak evil of dignities”, the NKJV “speak evil of dignitaries”, the ESV “blaspheme the glorious ones”, and so on. Well, which is it?? The NKJV interpretation, for instance, is a major stretch from what I can see
The Greek has doxas de blasphēmousin, literally translated “speak evil of [calumniate/revile/blaspheme] glories.” The Latin is close enough: maiestates autem blasphemant.
That’s amusing, because, side by side, I found the Geneva and KJV very similar - except that the former read flatter by comparison. Probably another reason why it hasn’t been popular since the latter’s release.
On the contrary, the Geneva remained popular with many Puritans and Dissenters and remained in widespread use until after the English Civil War (1642-1651). It was actually one of the Bibles taken to America on the Mayflower. In fact, a few editions of the KJV contained the Geneva annotations even as late as 1715!

The annotations are the part of the Geneva Bible King James I didn’t like, because he found it to be Calvinistic and rather anti-monarchical (James cited two passages in the Geneva translation where he found the marginal notes offensive: Exodus 1:19, where the Geneva Bible had commended the example of civil disobedience showed by the Hebrew midwives, and also II Chronicles 15:16, where the Geneva Bible had criticized King Asa for not having executed his idolatrous grandmother, Queen Maachah!); he specifically ordered that the new translation would not have any marginal notes on it, and that it would conform to the ecclesiology of the Church of England, which necessitated the translation of some words in a manner that reflected the episcopal structure of the Church of England and traditional beliefs about ordained clergy: for example, translating the Greek ekklēsia as ‘church’ and not ‘congregation’.

As a result of King James’ directives against marginal notes, there are no lengthy side material as in former translations. Instead, the original 1611 edition gives alternative (oftentimes more literal) renderings of the Hebrew or Greek in the margins, something the translators actually believed to be very important:

Some peradventure would have no variety of senses to be set in the margin, lest the authority of the Scriptures for deciding of controversies by that show of uncertainty, should somewhat be shaken. But we hold their judgment not to be so sound in this point. For though, whatsoever things are necessary are manifest, as S. Chrysostom saith, and as S. Augustine, In those things that are plainly set down in the Scriptures, all such matters are found that concern Faith, Hope, and Charity. Yet for all that it cannot be dissembled, that partly to exercise and whet our wits, partly to wean the curious from loathing of them for their every-where plainness, partly also to stir up our devotion to crave the assistance of God’s spirit by prayer, and lastly, that we might be forward to seek aid of our brethren by conference, and never scorn those that be not in all respects so complete as they should be, being to seek in many things ourselves, it hath pleased God in his divine providence, here and there to scatter words and sentences of that difficulty and doubtfulness, not in doctrinal points that concern salvation, (for in such it hath been vouched that the Scriptures are plain) but in matters of less moment, that fearfulness would better beseem us than confidence, and if we will resolve, to resolve upon modesty with S. Augustine, (though not in this same case altogether, yet upon the same ground) Melius est dubitare de occultis, quam litigare de incertis, it is better to make doubt of those things which are secret, than to strive about those things that are uncertain. There be many words in the Scriptures, which be never found there but once, (having neither brother nor neighbor, as the Hebrews speak) so that we cannot be holpen by conference of places. Again, there be many rare names of certain birds, beasts and precious stones, etc. concerning which the Hebrews themselves are so divided among themselves for judgment, that they may seem to have defined this or that, rather because they would say something, than because they were sure of that which they said, as S. Jerome somewhere saith of the Septuagint. Now in such a case, doth not a margin do well to admonish the Reader to seek further, and not to conclude or dogmatize upon this or that peremptorily? For as it is a fault of incredulity, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can be no less than presumption.
 
Therefore as S. Augustine saith, that variety of Translations is profitable for the finding out of the sense of the Scriptures: so diversity of signification and sense in the margin, where the text is no so clear, must needs do good, yea, is necessary, as we are persuaded. We know that Sixtus Quintus expressly forbiddeth, that any variety of readings of their vulgar edition, should be put in the margin, (which though it be not altogether the same thing to that we have in hand, yet it looketh that way) but we think he hath not all of his own side his favorers, for this conceit. They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other. If they were sure that their high Priest had all laws shut up in his breast, as Paul the Second bragged, and that he were as free from error by special privilege, as the Dictators of Rome were made by law inviolable, it were another matter; then his word were an Oracle, his opinion a decision. But the eyes of the world are now open, God be thanked, and have been a great while, they find that he is subject to the same affections and infirmities that others be, that his skin is penetrable, and therefore so much as he proveth, not as much as he claimeth, they grant and embrace.

As an example of this marginal annotation, you have Judges 19:2, which is translated as (modernized spelling): “And his concubine played the whore against him, and went away from him unto her father’s house to Bethlehemjudah, and was there four whole months.” The marginal note for this verse, meanwhile, gives alternate translations for the last three words: “Or, a year and four month: Heb. days, four months” (a more literal rendering of the Hebrew yomim 'arba’ah ḥodeshim, “days four moons”). A couple of another ones I’ll give are from Genesis 1:4-5:

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/1966/footnote.jpg

Yet another interesting specimen is from Acts 13:18 (“and about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness”) has the footnote (original spelling): “Gr. ἐτροποφόρησεν, perhaps, for ἐτροφοφόρησέν, as a nurſe beareth, or feedeth, her childe, Deut. 1.31. 2. macc 7.27, according to the Sept[uagint]. and ſo Chryſoſt[om].” Note the reference to 2 Maccabees! 😉

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1966/footnote.jpg

But tell me, when was the last time you saw a KJV with an annotation like this? 😉

Now the base text of the KJV happens to be the Bishops’ Bible (1568), text, and where they departed from that in favour of another translation, this was most commonly the Geneva. However, the degree to which readings from the Bishop’s Bible survived into final text of the King James Bible varies greatly from company to company, as did the propensity of the King James translators to coin phrases of their own. John Bois’s notes of the General Committee of Review show that they discussed readings derived from a wide variety of sources and versions, including explicitly both Henry Savile’s 1610 edition of the works of St. John Chrysostom, and also the Rheims NT, which was the primary source for many of the literal alternative readings provided for the marginal notes.

The Bishops’ Bible was itself an early effort by the CofE to counter the popularity of the Puritan Geneva, but it never achieved the status the KJV subsequently enjoyed; in fact, after it was published in 1611, the KJV soon took the Bishops’ Bible’s place as the de facto standard translation of the Church of England. Later generations have not been kind to the Bishops’ Bible either; people found the Geneva a better read than the Bishops’.

For the record, the Geneva’s ‘flatter’ style you mention may be due to it having a more direct, modern style when compared to the KJV’s more dramatic, slightly archaic style. Fof example, “and the moon was like blood” (Geneva) versus “and the moon became as blood” (King James).

Oh, and as an aside, the Geneva is actually John Bunyan’s, John Donne’s, John Milton’s, and William Shakespeare’s Bible. 😉
 
The annotations are the part of the Geneva Bible King James I didn’t like, because he found it to be Calvinistic and rather anti-monarchical
Ah, that makes more sense - also since the KJV is popular (indeed, the Only One) in various Reformed circles; I don’t recall any Arminian bias in the KJV. Thanks for the info!
 
It’s OK to read parts of it to better know how to convert people that are not Catholic.

But as for devotional reading stay away from it. The heresy in it is supported by Satan.
this reminds me of some thing I was watching a documentary about the u.s. treasury department. The department trains its agents to spot counterfeits not by primarily teaching them to know what they look like but rather knowing all the particularities of a genuine dollar bill.
 
How about Psalm 2:12 - “Embrace discipline” (DRC) vs “Kiss the Son” (KJV)? The RSVCE has “Kiss his feet”. What’s going on here?
 
Interesting and very educational thread guys, thanks.

I have an interest in the Book of Genesis. Specifically Genesis 3:22’

Pope John Paul II, wrote a very detailed analysis of Genesis in his “Theology of the Body” back in 1979-1982. But he must have been using something other than a KJ’s Bible to base his writings on in that the KJ’s lists chapter 3:22 as: Behold the man has become like one of us…etc, While JP2’s writings list that paragraph as 3:21.

My question is whether JP2 is using a different bible? And if so, why the inconsistency in paragraph numbering?

Here’s JP2’s version, found interestingly enough in chapter or audience number 22.

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm

So can any of you please tell me which Bible JP2 was using to base his work on, and whether it is available online?

Great thread folks, it explains alot.

Respectfully,

jomoco
 
From JP2’s Theology of the Body:

The radical character of this sentence is confirmed by the evidence of the experiences of man’s whole earthly history. The horizon of death extends over the whole perspective of human life on earth, life that was inserted in that original biblical cycle of “knowledge-generation.” Man has broken the covenant with his Creator by picking the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He is detached by God-Yahweh from the tree of life: “Now, let him not put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” (Gn 3:21). In this way, the life given to man in the mystery of creation has not been taken away. But it is restricted by the limit of conceptions, births and deaths, and further aggravated by the perspective of hereditary sinfulness. But it is given to him again, in a way, as a task in the same ever-recurring cycle.

[End Quote]

jomoco
 
How about Psalm 2:12 - “Embrace discipline” (DRC) vs “Kiss the Son” (KJV)? The RSVCE has “Kiss his feet”. What’s going on here?
The Hebrew here has naššəqû-ḇar. The traditional rendering “kiss the son” is based on the understanding that ḇar here means ‘son’, citing the fact that in Proverbs 31:2 the same word also occurs three times, clearly referring to a son (mah-bərî ûmah-bar-biṭənî ûmeh bar-nəḏārāy). Some medieval Jewish sources also read the passage in this way. However, as you would have guessed one problem with this is that bar is the Aramaic word for son (cf. Hebrew ben). The occurrence of bar in Proverbs 31 is taken by some to imply a late origin for that passage.

Thus, there are folks who regard this reading as rather suspect and thus consider the actual meaning of ḇar in this context as obscure. Some meanwhile propose that the passage (11b-12a) should be emended; one of the more popular emendations is to read here birə‘āḏâ naššəqû ləraḡəlāyw “in trembling kiss his feet” (the one RSV-CE follows) or to consider ḇar as the adjective meaning ‘pure’ (cf. Psalms 44:4; 73:1), hence the meaning would be something like ‘give sincere homage’. St. Jerome’s translation of the Psalms from the Hebrew (Versio iuxta Hebraicum) also understands the passage in this way: adorate pure.

The Septuagint translated this part as δράξασθε παιδείας (draxasthe paideias), “seize/grasp disciplinary instruction;” i.e. ‘accept correction’, which the Gallican Psalter (the version of the Psalms now commonly found in the Vulgate) closely follows as: apprehendite disciplinam. Interestingly, the 1979 Nova Vulgata [keeps this rendering.](http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_vt_psalmorum_lt.html#PSALMUS 2)
 
Though my Protestantism renders me ever-so-slightly biased, I heartily recommend the KJV, and can see nothing in it which an orthodox Catholic must needs object to. Just a few hours ago I came across a “400th Anniversary Edition” KJV at a bookstore and of course promptly acquired it. It’s quite amazing - a near-exact facsimile of the first edition text, and of course including the apocryphal books. Just so long as you remember to switch your Vs and Us and Is and Js, you’ll do fine. 😉
 
The KJV is closer to the Catholic Vulgate than any other Protestant bibles out there.

I’m Catholic and no fan of the KJV but it gets some things right that other Protestant bibles don’t.

It’s kind of ironic that the Protestant KJV only crow advocates a bible thaty is more Catholic than any other Protestant bible out there!

The KJV does use “In the person”–“In persanna Christi” in 2 Corinthians 2:10.

I guess its endorsement of absolution either got by the translators or maybe in 1611 confession and absolution wasn’t as hated by many Protestants as it is hated by many Protestants today!

I’d tell any protestant to go with the KJV if they wanted a Protestant translation because it would be closer to Catholic truth than all the others.
 
The KJV is closer to the Catholic Vulgate than any other Protestant bibles out there.

I’m Catholic and no fan of the KJV but it gets some things right that other Protestant bibles don’t.

It’s kind of ironic that the Protestant KJV only crow advocates a bible thaty is more Catholic than any other Protestant bible out there!

The KJV does use “In the person”–“In persanna Christi” in 2 Corinthians 2:10.

I guess its endorsement of absolution either got by the translators or maybe in 1611 confession and absolution wasn’t as hated by many Protestants as it is hated by many Protestants today!

I’d tell any protestant to go with the KJV if they wanted a Protestant translation because it would be closer to Catholic truth than all the others.
Of course, you do have to remember that James I specifically directed the translators to keep the ‘old ecclesiastical words’ (like ‘church’ instead of ‘congregation’) to support the Church of England and its hierarchy. 😉
 
I’m ignorant–which is correct–congregation or church?
Well, we’re talking about the Greek word ἐκκλησία ekklēsia here. Literally speaking the word means ‘a summoning’, i.e. ‘assembly’, so congregation is not too wrong a translation IMHO. That being said, there was a tendency in many - but not all - English translations before the King James Version (starting from William Tyndale) to remove any traces of words that sounded too - gasp! - ‘Catholic’: hence, rather than translating ekklēsia as ‘church’ these translations chose to use ‘congregation’ instead. A notorious example in this regard is Matthew 16:18. Let’s compare how this verse is translated.

John Wycliff (Early): And Y seye to thee, for thou art Petre, and vpon this stoon I shal bilde my churche,
John Wycliff (Late): And Y seie to thee, that thou art Petre, and on this stoon Y schal bilde my chirche,

William Tyndale (1530-34): And I saye also vnto the / þt thou arte Peter: and apon this rocke I wyll bylde my congregacion.
Miles Coverdale (1535): And I saie to þe: Thou art Peter, & vpø this rocke wil I builde my cøgregacion:
Great Bible (1540): And I saye also vnto the þt thou art Peter: & vpon this rocke I wil bylde my cøgregacion.
Thomas Matthew (1549): And I saye also vnto the that thou arte Peeter: and vpon thys rocke I wil buylde my congregacion.
Bishops’ Bible (1568): And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I wyll buylde my congregation:

Rheims New Testament (1582): And I say to thee, That thou art Peter: and upon this Rocke vvil I build my Church,
Geneva Bible (1587): And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I will builde my Church:
King James (1611): And I say also vnto thee, that thou art Peter, and vpon this rocke I will build my Church:
 
I would have to throw my support in with the KJV. No, it is not a Catholic translation. I grew up on it as a Southern Baptist, and I have to say it is better (in my opinion) than the NAB.

If anyone cares I found this:

If you have an iPad, there is a KJV with the Deuterocanon (labeled Apocrypha) and the books the Latin Church does not consider canonical (but certain Eastern Churches do) with beautiful artwork included. It is called the Art Bible and it costs under $10. The spelling is standardized throughout. The Deuterocanonical books in it do not seem much different to that in the RSV.

It is the closes thing to a quality Catholic Bible I have found for the iPad. Most others have typos or lack the full canon (there are even editions of the Clementina and Nova Vulgatae from which someone ripped out the Deuterocanon!)

Since the 1611 edition is public domain, could not someone make a “Catholic Edition”? Meaning, placing the Deuterocanon in its proper placement - I think keeping the other books included is a good idea as well.
 
I have an interesting side trivia. The original translators of the Rheims NT and Douai OT were of the opinion that a translation of the Bible should be slavishly faithful to the point that if one finds an obscure or ambiguous passage in the original text, the translation should never attempt to clarify but must instead keep fidelity to the original and thus be obscure and ambiguous as well, with the various options for understanding the text discussed in a marginal note: “we presume not in hard places to modifie the speaches or phrases, but religiously keepe them word for word, and point for point, for feare of missing or restraining the sense of the holy Ghost to our phantasie.

This was one of their main bones to pick with many Protestant translations (such as the Geneva Bible, the primary Bible of the 16th century English Protestant movement before the KJV came out - in fact, the reason why the KJV was commissioned in the first place was because King James I, as well as other CofE folks, disliked the very Calvinistic and Puritan character of the Geneva Bible so much!), in that they strive to render the original text in clear English at the cost of fidelity to the text. Previous English versions had improperly imputed clear meanings for obscure passages in the Greek, where the Latin Vulgate had often tended to rather render the Greek literally, even to the extent of generating improper Latin constructions.
I own a photocopy of the Summary of the Conference at Hampton Court. This conference is where it was decided to make a new Bible. You are absolutely about King James. The King stated that he had never seen a good English translation and in his opinion, the worst of all was the Geneva Bible. Not only did he hate the translation of the Geneva Bible, he also hated the marginal notes which he believed were “very partial, untrue, seditious, etc.” and forbade any marginal notes to be included in his authorized version.

At the conference the Puritans demanded he remove the Apocrypha. He basically told them that removing them is absurd. He did assure them they would not be used in the liturgy to prevent anyone from being encourage to pray to of for the dead.

It isn’t a perfect translation but I don’t think it is anti-Catholic. There is a certain beauty to it.

There is nothing wrong with reading it (I own a copy myself). I wouldn’t make it my primary bible for the following reasons:


  1. *]The scroll it is translated from is considered to be one of the worst by textual critics due to its many errors and extra verses.

    *]It simply is not the best translation.

    *]Although beautiful and poetic, the English is so archaic that you need a translation of the translation. I guess that is why the made the NKJV which I do enjoy. (BTW the Word of Promise audio bible was produced by good Catholics like Raymond Arroyo and Jim Caviezel and it uses the NKJV).

    One thing I love about the King James version is that the “Our Father” in the Gospel of Matthew is a wonderful apologetic tool. It contains the extra line “For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever." This is not in the original version of the Gospel text. This comes from the Catholic liturgy. This demonstrates that the early Christians were Catholic. Some scribe must have said to himself while copying, “Hey, this is missing that line we say after the “Our Father” in the liturgy! I bet better add it in there.” It is kind of funny that many “KJV only” people make fun of us for having an incomplete version of the “Our Father.”
 
I have so enjoyed this thread, especially the well researched and reasoned contributions by Patrick457 (thank you for that treat).

I grew up with the KJV being quoted for all occasions. I really struggled with it as a teenager wondering if I would ever be able to understand the language but persistance led to success. Like the study of Shakespeare you soon get to understand the ‘early modern’ English.

I recently purchased a bulky, large print KJV and am now reading the NT again. I have read quite a few different translations over the years but still find the KJV the most satisfying. I don’t like most of the modern translations though the original version of The Jerusalem Bible is very good.
 
The 1611 had all the books, though some were listed as apocrapha.
You can buy this version.
 
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