King James Bible

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Concerning Douay and KJV Gospels: There is so much identicality of text that it is impossible to hold that there was not either a great deal of co-operation between the two colleges, or that there was a greater deal of spying and cross-copying going on.
The way you describe it, it sounds like rival translation teams feverishly competing against each other from across the channel, with lots of cloak and dagger spying and intrigue. I think the description in Wikipedia fits more closely with what I have heard in the past: The Challoner version of the DR, from about 1749, is the one most of us are familiar with.
Challoner’s revisions borrowed heavily from the King James Version, (himself being a convert from Protestantism, and thus familiar with its style) whose translators, again, had borrowed terms from the original Rheims NT of 1582. Challoner not only addressed the odd prose and the latinisms, but produced a version which while still called the Douai-Rheims, was little like it.
 
Actually KJV came out first by less than a year, both were finished in 1611.
This is incorrect.
In 1582, the New Testament was published, and became consequently known as the “Rheims Testament”. It contained no episcopal imprimatur, but a recommendation was appended signed by four divines of the University of Reims. The Old Testament was delayed by want of means, until the whole Bible was eventually published in two quarto volumes, in 1609 and 1610, by which time the college had returned to Douai, and the recommendation was signed by three doctors of that university. Thus the New Testament appeared nearly thirty years before the Anglican “Authorized Version”, and although not officially mentioned as one of the versions to be consulted, it is now commonly recognized to have had a large influence on the King James Version.
from New Advent
 
Also the original KJV included the deutro books as “apocrypha”(why they are not present in modern editions of that bible is to me due to the increase in anti-catholicism in protestant circles)
Actually the reason for the omission of the Apocrypha is less sinister. It was a cost-cutting measure by the American Bible Society in the 1800’s. Since then the ABS has published newer translations of the Bible with the Apocrypha back in.
 
The way you describe it, it sounds like rival translation teams feverishly competing against each other from across the channel, with lots of cloak and dagger spying and intrigue. I think the description in Wikipedia fits more closely with what I have heard in the past: The Challoner version of the DR, from about 1749, is the one most of us are familiar with.
Thankyou for that reference, I ndid not realize that the Douay NT was that early. It seems that common plagiarism in both directions was the vehicle of syncronization.
Cranch’s comment also supports this conjecture.
I still find KJV more readable, but D_R is better for understanding the Latin.
 
YET… Consider the two sons in the Vinyard
How can you translate ‘novissimus’ as ‘the first’
Ephrem Syrus witnesses Tatian saying ‘the youngest’
Reading ‘first’ as would be correct in context as ‘first-born’ and ‘novissimus’ as last born, gives a response by the Judeans which is in compliance with Roman military law, which explains our Lord’s condemnation. Reading ‘novissimus’ as ‘first’ confounds Latin, and makes no sense of Our Lord’s condemnation.
When you want to make a point from “the Latin”, kindly use either the Clementine Vulgate or the Nova Vulgata; that other “Latin Vulgate” found on most internet sites was not approved by the CATHOLIC Church and is not too reliable.

The Clementine reads as follows; the word “novissimus” does not appear either here or in the Nova Vulgata. The correct word in v.31 is “primus”.

Quid autem vobis videtur ? Homo quidam habebat duos filios, et accedens ad primum, dixit : Fili, vade hodie, operare in vinea mea. 29 Ille autem respondens, ait : Nolo. Postea autem, pœnitentia motus, abiit. 30 Accedens autem ad alterum, dixit similiter. At ille respondens, ait : Eo, domine, et non ivit : 31 quis ex duobus fecit voluntatem patris ? Dicunt ei : Primus. Dicit illis Jesus : Amen dico vobis, quia publicani et meretrices præcedent vos in regnum Dei. 32 Venit enim ad vos Joannes in via justitiæ, et non credidistis ei : publicani autem et meretrices crediderunt ei : vos autem videntes nec pœnitentiam habuistis postea, ut crederetis ei.
 
When you want to make a point from “the Latin”, kindly use either the Clementine Vulgate or the Nova Vulgata; that other “Latin Vulgate” found on most internet sites was not approved by the CATHOLIC Church and is not too reliable.
Manfred-

Is this what your referring to? It uses novissimus in Luke 21:31. biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=4
I’m just beginning to learn more about the Vulgate. Can you provide a little background? How many versions are there and are some spurious? This one purports to be a Vulgate (originally published in 1969 ?!?).

This looks like the real deal (middle of the table): sacredbible.org/
Then there’s this. Do you know anything about it?: non-Vulgate Latin bible
Thanks.
 
Manfred-

Is this what your referring to? It uses novissimus in Luke 21:31. biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=4
I’m just beginning to learn more about the Vulgate. Can you provide a little background? How many versions are there and are some spurious? This one purports to be a Vulgate (originally published in 1969 ?!?).

This looks like the real deal (middle of the table): sacredbible.org/
Then there’s this. Do you know anything about it?: non-Vulgate Latin bible
Thanks.
Cranch,

Sorry; should’ve mentioned it was MATTHEW 21:31.

Clementine Vulgate: vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/index.html

Nova Vulgata: vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html

These are the only two which have recognition by the CATHOLIC Church; the other to which you link is an incomplete non-Catholic work, with no punctuation or capitilization, plus many unfamiliar renderings here and there.

For the record, “novissimus” DOES appear in that spurious Latin edition.

The Dpouay-Rheims-Challoner was translated from the Clementine Vulgate.
 
Cranch,

Sorry; should’ve mentioned it was MATTHEW 21:31.

Clementine Vulgate: vulsearch.sourceforge.net/html/index.html

Nova Vulgata: vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html

These are the only two which have recognition by the CATHOLIC Church; the other to which you link is an incomplete non-Catholic work, with no punctuation or capitilization, plus many unfamiliar renderings here and there.

For the record, “novissimus” DOES appear in that spurious Latin edition.

The Dpouay-Rheims-Challoner was translated from the Clementine Vulgate.
Thanks, Manfred. My bad. “Luke” was a typo. I was reading Matthew. 🙂
 
When you want to make a point from “the Latin”, kindly use either the Clementine Vulgate or the Nova Vulgata; that other “Latin Vulgate” found on most internet sites was not approved by the CATHOLIC Church and is not too reliable.

The Clementine reads as follows; the word “novissimus” does not appear either here or in the Nova Vulgata. The correct word in v.31 is “primus”.

28 Quid autem vobis videtur ? Homo quidam habebat duos filios, et accedens ad primum, dixit: Fili, vade hodie, operare in vinea mea.
29 Ille autem respondens, ait: Nolo. Postea autem, pœnitentia motus, abiit.
30 Accedens autem ad alterum, dixit similiter. At ille respondens, ait: Eo, domine, et non ivit:
31 quis ex duobus fecit voluntatem patris ? Dicunt ei: Primus. Dicit illis Jesus: Amen dico vobis, quia publicani et meretrices præcedent vos in regnum Dei.
32 Venit enim ad vos Joannes in via justitiæ, et non credidistis ei: publicani autem et meretrices crediderunt ei: vos autem videntes nec pœnitentiam habuistis postea, ut crederetis ei.
Dear Manfred,
Well, there is a surprise!
The strange thing is, that my Printed Vulgate
Biblia Sacra Vulgata, from Handermann Press agrees with the text I found.
It is not possible for this to be a missprint, or an error in copying. This can only be a modification of the text: a deliberate mutation.
So where does this text come from? I will quote from my source followed by (your source):

28/ quid autem vobis videtur homo habebat duos filios et accedens ad primum dixit fili vade hodie operare in vinea mea
(28 Quid autem vobis videtur ? Homo quidam habebat duos filios, et accedens ad primum, dixit: Fili, vade hodie, operare in vinea mea.)

29/ ille autem respondens ait nolo postea autem paenitentia motus abiit
(29 Ille autem respondens, ait: Nolo. Postea autem, pœnitentia motus, abiit.)

30/ accedens autem ad alterum dixit similiter at ille respondens ait eo domine et non ivit
(30 Accedens autem ad alterum, dixit similiter. At ille respondens, ait: Eo, domine, et non ivit:)

31/ quis ex duobus fecit voluntatem patris dicunt novissimus dicit illis Iesus amen dico vobis quia publicani et meretrices praecedunt vos in regno Dei
(31 quis ex duobus fecit voluntatem patris ? Dicunt ei: Primus. Dicit illis Jesus : Amen dico vobis, quia publicani et meretrices præcedent vos in regnum Dei.)

32/ venit enim ad vos Iohannes in via iustitiae et non credidistis ei publicani autem et meretrices crediderunt ei vos autem videntes nec paenitentiam habuistis postea ut crederetis ei
(32 Venit enim ad vos Joannes in via justitiæ, et non credidistis ei: publicani autem et meretrices crediderunt ei : vos autem videntes nec pœnitentiam habuistis postea, ut crederetis ei.)

I have emboldened the differences, ignoring capitalization and spurious punctuation. Where the equivalent word is different, both words are emboldened, where a spurious word is present, it alone is emboldened.
I do not know where this Vulgata Clementina purports to come from, but the Latin is attrocious.
‘J’ is found in place of ‘I’,
and ‘paenitent’ is incorrectly spelled using ‘œ’
Also notice that in verse 31, we find ‘regnum’ where ‘regno’ is otherwise found. This is accusative in place of ablative, indicating that ‘in’ is read as ‘into’ rather than ‘within’.
As we have already noticed, in verse 31, we find ‘primus’ in place of ‘novissimus’

In conclusion, I find that the text you quote, though it purports to be authoritative, yet seems to be less accurate than that which I have quoted. As I reported initially, Ephrem Syrus quoting Tatian finds ‘novissimus’ which he reads as ‘the younger’.

If you consider carefully the last point, you will see that, taking Roman military law into consideration, the story makes complete sense using ‘novissimus’, while, using ‘primus’, it makes no sense at all.
 
Matthew 21: 28 - 32 as found witnessed in the Codex Sangallensis, (sangallen56.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Page202.htm🙂

Mt 21 28 & 29
Quid vobis videtur? Homo habebat duos filios, et accedens ad primum dixit: fili, vade hodie, operare in vinea mea. Ille autem respondens ait: nolo. Postea autem pænitentia motus abiit.

But what think you? A certain man had two sons: and coming to the firstborn, he said: Son, go work to day in my vineyard. And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went.
123: 4
Waz ist íu gisehan? Sum man habeta zuene suni, inti gieng thô zi themo ériren, quad imo: sun, far hiutu inti wirki in minemo wîngarten. Her thô antlingenti quad: ni wili. After thiu mit riuw giruorit fuor thara.

Mt 21 30
Accedens autem ad alterum dixit similiter. At ille respondens ait: eo, domine, et non ivit.

And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering said: I go, Sir. And he went not.
123: 5
Gieng her thô zi themo andaremo, quad imo sama. Her thô antlingenti quad: ih gân, hêrro, inti ni gieng.

Mt 21 31
Quis ex duobus fecit voluntatem patris? Dicunt: novissimus. Dicit illis Ihesus: amen dico vobis, quia publicani et meretrices præcedent vos in regno dei.

Which of the two did the father’s will? They say to him: The younger. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.
123: 6
Wedar thero zueio teta willon thes fater? Thô quadun sie: thie iungiro. Thô quad in ther heilant: wâr sagen ih íu, thaz thie firnfollun man inti huorun furifarent íwih in gotes rihhe.

Mt 21 32a
Venit enim ad vos Iohannes in via iustitiæ, et non credidistis ei;
For John came to you in the way of justice: and you did not believe him.
123: 7a
Quam zi íu Iohannes in wege rehtes, inti ir ni giloubtut imo:

Mt 21 32b
publicani autem et meretrices crediderunt ei: vos autem videntes nec pænitentiam habuistis postea, ut crederetis ei.

But the publicans and the harlots believed him: but you, seeing it, did not even afterwards repent, that you might believe him.
123: 7b
thie firnfollun man inti thio huorun giloubtun imo: ir thô thaz gisehente ni habetut nohheina riwa after thiu, thaz ir imo giloubtit.

The first paragraph in each set is a faithful copy of Sievers transliteration of the manuscript.
the second is MY translation using as reference the Douay-Rheims Bible.
The third paragraph is the old-High-German, or Saxon dialect, as transliterated by Sievers.
You will notice that in the paragraph introduced as Mt 21 31, the word ‘novissimus’ is present, which I read, following Ephrem Syrus, as ‘the younger’, and which the Saxon scribe reads as ‘thie iungiro’.
This text had not seen the light of day between the death by martyrdom, of St Boniface of Germany, and the opening of his tomb some 400 years later, and has not been edited. Likewise, the Codex Fuldensis, which was with it, which likewise has not been edited at this point, supports this reading, which was thus the correct reading in AD540, at the hand of St Victor of Capua.
Thus we have THREE reliable and ancient witnesses which see ‘novissimus’, where someone has obviously substituted ‘primus’, not understanding the context.
It is possible that ythe culprit is the Codex Amiatinus, which also interpolates a BRITISH weather forcasting proverb into Matthew 16: 1 - 3, viz:
Red sky at night, shepherds’ delight:
red in the morning, shepherds’ warning.
It can be easily proven that this proverb only has any real reliability, about 95% that is, in Northern Britain, where the Codex Amiatinus originated.
 
Not to keep repeating things but—I don’t like the NAB I find some of the footnotes suspect. Just my 2 cents worth.
I am with you. I do not like the dynamic translation used. I am particularly offended when scripture is apparently altered to make it “inclusive”.
 
another point, in KJV, the word “Saint” does not imply those saints in heaven but those living on earth. This mistake leads to the differences between Catholic and non-catholic. For Catholic, we believe the Saints in Heaven pray for us. For non-catholic, some says those prayers are not prayers but “praise only”, and some other says those prayers are of people living on Earth.

Therefore, it is important to pick a Bible if you want to practice your faith. If you don’t know much about Catholic, and read KJV, you can get confused.
The Douay-Rheims, which is 100% Catholic, uses the word “saint” in the same way as the KJV. For instance, in Romans 16:15, “Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Oympias, and all the saints**** who are with them.” (bold lettering is mine for emphasis)
 
The Douay-Rheims, which is 100% Catholic, uses the word “saint” in the same way as the KJV. For instance, in Romans 16:15, “Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Oympias, and all the saints who are with them.” (bold lettering is mine for emphasis)
I do not have any problems with the Kign James version. I just prefer the unabbirdged (Catholic) edition of the Bible rather than the Abbridged edtion used by most Protestants.

Douay-Rhiems is very good. The Haddock Douay-Rhiems edition has some of the best commentary of any Bible I have ever read. It is kind of expensive.
 
I do not have any problems with the Kign James version. I just prefer the unabbirdged (Catholic) edition of the Bible rather than the Abbridged edtion used by most Protestants.

Douay-Rhiems is very good. The Haddock Douay-Rhiems edition has some of the best commentary of any Bible I have ever read. It is kind of expensive.
I don’t have any problem with the KJV either. In fact, I just ordered the original 1611 edition. I also have a couple of newer KJV’s one with Apocrypha and one without.

I have an old Douay-Rheims published in 1952. I got it from my mother when she bought a new Bible. I’d like to get a Haydock. How expensive is it? Do you have any links to websites to buy one?
 
I don’t have any problem with the KJV either. In fact, I just ordered the original 1611 edition. I also have a couple of newer KJV’s one with Apocrypha and one without.

I have an old Douay-Rheims published in 1952. I got it from my mother when she bought a new Bible. I’d like to get a Haydock. How expensive is it? Do you have any links to websites to buy one?
It ain’t cheap:

catholictreasures.com/cartdescrip/11050.html

I’ve seen it elswhere, but out of stock. Apparently the softcover is no longer being published. One place (for more money) says they usually ship 1-2 weeks after order but that sounds like no stock also. Supposedly a hardcover version is in the works. If these guys actually have stock, you might want to grab it. Price is typical.
 
I suggest you buy yourself a Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. It will help you look up everytime a word is used in the Bible and give the original Hebrew\Greek word that it was translated from. That is a good starting point to expand your vocabulary.
Strong’s is great. But it’s keyed to the KJV. I cut my teeth on the KJV, so nobody can ever convince me that it’s “evil” – that’s just plain stupid. It was a GREAT translation in its day but a lot of manuscript evidence has emerged since the 17th Century.

What’s great about Strong’s is the number system to the Greek & Hebrew. But it tends to make people think they know more about those languages than they really do. Gotta be careful.

I use the RSV for “real” Scripture study, the NAB for my classes (because that’s what we hear in Church), and the Greek NT and Septuagint for getting intense with the Word. My Hebrew is useless, although I took a year of it. I retain a vain fantasy that it makes a difference in my understanding.

'Nother problem with the KJV is the antiquity of the language. ENGLISH has changed since then and some of the differences are downright confusing.
 
It ain’t cheap:

catholictreasures.com/cartdescrip/11050.html

I’ve seen it elswhere, but out of stock. Apparently the softcover is no longer being published. One place (for more money) says they usually ship 1-2 weeks after order but that sounds like no stock also. Supposedly a hardcover version is in the works. If these guys actually have stock, you might want to grab it. Price is typical.
Is it $99 for the Old Testament and $99 for the New Testament? What kind of binding does the $99 get you?
 
Is it $99 for the Old Testament and $99 for the New Testament? What kind of binding does the $99 get you?
As far as I know, it’s a total of $99 for the 2-volume set. Softcover. (I think I saw it described as a sturdy paperback binding. I don’t own them.)
 
As far as I know, it’s a total of $99 for the 2-volume set. Softcover.
Wow, that is expensive. I would expect a nice leather binding for that price. I’ll have to wait a while before I can even consider purchasing that one!
 
Wow, that is expensive. I would expect a nice leather binding for that price. I’ll have to wait a while before I can even consider purchasing that one!
Haydock’s notes are online here. New Testament and so far, one third of the OT. I suppose you could even use them in conjunction with any translation although they originally accompanied the Douay-Rheims.
 
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