Kings

  • Thread starter Thread starter PbloPicasso
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

PbloPicasso

Guest
This is very rough draft of my thoughts today, as well as infant in it’s sketching.

In my brief existence and study of salvation history I’ve come to an interesting point of observation I’d like to share. The problem is that I can think about it, but the thought patterns are not quite yet ready to be shared. I’m working on nailing down an impasse that reflects the perceptions of a visible hierarchy over time.

First, deep in history, pre-dating Christ, Kings were the norm. This remained true for nearly 1800 years since Christ. Even today, there are non-ruling and ruling crowns. The people of such government structures understood that loyalty to the crown was important, probably even lethal if they rejected it. The cruel and unusual punishment administered upon criminals, both political and real, were very harsh to say the least. They tortured people to get information out of them and to purify them, and sometimes just because they could.

Over time, people like Cromwell, Luther, and particularly Calvin and evangelicals sought to change the tide of control over the people and their freedom to become self-destructive by breaking away from the Church. Crudely put, they tried to drag everyone to hell with them in a hand basket. More precisely put, there seems to be a fading understanding of the crown and loyalty to it. Even Jesus said that he came not to destroy but to fullfill. He also warned the disciples not to act as the teachers of the law do but to do as they teach. There is no telling of a tear down of ideas. God is still royalty, described in such terms and nothing other than rebellious men and women throughout history has challenged it. There have been less impressive arguments pivoting on what would seem like utter non-sense to the average lay person. Fore example, the filioque clause.

It was understood that someone had always had authority. The early church fathers made that perfectly clear. The only people I know of that seemed to off doing their own thing were Gnostic, because they rejected the teachings of Christ as laid down before them. They took truth and twisted it to mean what they felt comfortable with I presume. Ever since the beginning of the Church, many have tried to take control of her. In fact, if memory serves me at one point Arianism was adopted by a majority of the bishops. This was faught throughout history by men, bishops, that had been exiled, excommunicated and reconciled with the Church many times. Political entities in the form of local governments played an enormous part in the cruelty that is perceived to have been implemented by the Church authorities in the dark ages and after. When you compare the way governments work today and the near helplessness religious communities have under their jurisdiction it baffles me how, anti-Christian, particularly anti-Catholics, portray or perceive the Catholic Church with respect to the historical context of those events.

Protestants will have a tremendous time trying to overcome the poverty of knowledge and understanding with respect to historical context. Basically, Catholics and Protestants fail to see salvation history in the context of a Kingship. Christ the King, not our brother, though it is true, He is more importantly our savior and because of his immense sacrifice for us, he is also named King. We have a brother that is King. And even in such families, the King is always bowed to and venerated as special. Now we do not have the proper experiences to fathom God in that context.

Part of this was being discussed on Catholic Answers radio today. It made me wonder.
 
This is very rough draft of my thoughts today, as well as infant in it’s sketching.

In my brief existence and study of salvation history I’ve come to an interesting point of observation I’d like to share. The problem is that I can think about it, but the thought patterns are not quite yet ready to be shared. I’m working on nailing down an impasse that reflects the perceptions of a visible hierarchy over time.

First, deep in history, pre-dating Christ, Kings were the norm. This remained true for nearly 1800 years since Christ. Even today, there are non-ruling and ruling crowns. The people of such government structures understood that loyalty to the crown was important, probably even lethal if they rejected it. The cruel and unusual punishment administered upon criminals, both political and real, were very harsh to say the least. They tortured people to get information out of them and to purify them, and sometimes just because they could.

Over time, people like Cromwell, Luther, and particularly Calvin and evangelicals sought to change the tide of control over the people and their freedom to become self-destructive by breaking away from the Church. Crudely put, they tried to drag everyone to hell with them in a hand basket. More precisely put, there seems to be a fading understanding of the crown and loyalty to it. Even Jesus said that he came not to destroy but to fullfill. He also warned the disciples not to act as the teachers of the law do but to do as they teach. There is no telling of a tear down of ideas. God is still royalty, described in such terms and nothing other than rebellious men and women throughout history has challenged it. There have been less impressive arguments pivoting on what would seem like utter non-sense to the average lay person. Fore example, the filioque clause.

It was understood that someone had always had authority. The early church fathers made that perfectly clear. The only people I know of that seemed to off doing their own thing were Gnostic, because they rejected the teachings of Christ as laid down before them. They took truth and twisted it to mean what they felt comfortable with I presume. Ever since the beginning of the Church, many have tried to take control of her. In fact, if memory serves me at one point Arianism was adopted by a majority of the bishops. This was faught throughout history by men, bishops, that had been exiled, excommunicated and reconciled with the Church many times. Political entities in the form of local governments played an enormous part in the cruelty that is perceived to have been implemented by the Church authorities in the dark ages and after. When you compare the way governments work today and the near helplessness religious communities have under their jurisdiction it baffles me how, anti-Christian, particularly anti-Catholics, portray or perceive the Catholic Church with respect to the historical context of those events.

Protestants will have a tremendous time trying to overcome the poverty of knowledge and understanding with respect to historical context. Basically, Catholics and Protestants fail to see salvation history in the context of a Kingship. Christ the King, not our brother, though it is true, He is more importantly our savior and because of his immense sacrifice for us, he is also named King. We have a brother that is King. And even in such families, the King is always bowed to and venerated as special. Now we do not have the proper experiences to fathom God in that context.

Part of this was being discussed on Catholic Answers radio today. It made me wonder.
Hey, you must think in terms of metaphor.
Kings and Kingdom are metaphors. It is not true that before Christ all were kings. You have tribal leaders, councils, Kings, Emperors (why isnt Christ an Emperor which is much more powerful?). These are metaphors, ok?
Metaphors are what they are and serve for the purpose they serve.
Remember other Gospels’ metaphors: tree, vine, House, King, good shepherd, meal, treasures, poor Lazarus, seed, sow, children, fishing, net, walk, way, road, gate, sheep and goats, fire, bride and bridegroom, lamps, salt, piece of cloth, cross, raise up, knock down the temple, and so on.
 
“IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS IM THE BOSS” 5.6 Cause I Said So @ Page 14 in yo’ history book
 
Hey, you must think in terms of metaphor.
Kings and Kingdom are metaphors. It is not true that before Christ all were kings. You have tribal leaders, councils, Kings, Emperors (why isnt Christ an Emperor which is much more powerful?). These are metaphors, ok?
Metaphors are what they are and serve for the purpose they serve.
Remember other Gospels’ metaphors: tree, vine, House, King, good shepherd, meal, treasures, poor Lazarus, seed, sow, children, fishing, net, walk, way, road, gate, sheep and goats, fire, bride and bridegroom, lamps, salt, piece of cloth, cross, raise up, knock down the temple, and so on.
Yes and no…

The Kingship of Christ, the Messiah, was something powerful and expected and would be understood in the Jewish, as well as in the wider world, as being more literal than metaphorical.

Even today, those Christian groups who are descended from the reformation would say that Jesus Christ is their King, Lord, Savior, etc. They would simply add that what we as Catholics see as a revolt by Luther and others, was not a revolt against the King but against corrupt officials etc. (It was not Luther’s original intent to break from the Church)

So - The image of the kingdom and the king as something real remains both valid and powerful. After all, Jesus himself said that the Father had granted Him all authority over the heavens and the earth. Such authority only a King (or emperor if you like) can wield.

Peace
James
 
Carrying this thought a bit further. I listen to KLTY, a local Christian radio station with mostly music. I like some of the music, don’t agree with some of it and anytime the hosts say something off the wall, which is more often than I care for. But I like the music. The local Catholic station is full of apologetic, which is good, but not what I need to hear all the time while driving. Imagine someone trying to make you solve math problems all the time while driving.

I notice in the comments of Protestants, well meaning statement, are not even scriptural, yet in their blessings theology, corrupted by New Age thinking today, a serious lack of understanding of God and life in general. The non-denominational congregations seem to lack that hierarchy evident in scripture and throughout history, all salvation history. There is a serious lack of the proper place of God, and too much emphasis on the “Big Butter Jesus” concept I’ve read about on other forums. They like to portray Jesus as always happy now, and that we too should always be happy. I heard the host on the radio show say to a lady giving a pretty good analogy that “we should get over it and move on”. The lady just restated what she said. It sounded very Catholic. She said that we should appreciate our mornings while we have them and that as night comes upon us to remember that the morning, Sunrise is sure to follow. It was much better than that. But the host of the radio show seemed to miss the point completely.

I can see from my own life experience why I’ve had a difficult time with the hierarchy of the Church. If we dismiss the metaphors then we run the risk of losing sight of the priests role. There is a distinct disruption, no, a rejection of the truth that Jesus himself taught us as he taught His disciples revealed in Matthew 23. Protestants have lost their sense of direction because of this most significant concept, abandoned slowly over the past 500 years. This is my heritage and what I often knock heads with Catholics, that grow up with this training. Catholics that reject this have been tainted by the effects of Protestant proselytizing and Catholic bashing.
 
Yes and no…

The Kingship of Christ, the Messiah, was something powerful and expected and would be understood in the Jewish, as well as in the wider world, as being more literal than metaphorical.

Even today, those Christian groups who are descended from the reformation would say that Jesus Christ is their King, Lord, Savior, etc. They would simply add that what we as Catholics see as a revolt by Luther and others, was not a revolt against the King but against corrupt officials etc. (It was not Luther’s original intent to break from the Church)

So - The image of the kingdom and the king as something real remains both valid and powerful. After all, Jesus himself said that the Father had granted Him all authority over the heavens and the earth. Such authority only a King (or emperor if you like) can wield.

Peace
James
You are contradicting. First, you say that it is more literal than metaphorical. Then, in the you speak of the “image”. Metaphor and Image are similar. Image is a metaphor devolopped. If I say: Life is a river, it is a metaphor. If I say that Life is a river: it jumps, sways, calms down, gets rough, etc, this is an image, a metaphor developed.

Attention: I find the metaphor of the King or the image, as you like, extremely Powerful, ore that saying tha Christ is the President of the Republic.

The problem with Jews is that they expected a worldly King and came to them a Heavenly King and they could not understand. I wouldn’t either if I were in their place.

So, to tell you the truth, next comes the feast of Christ the King, one of my favourites. But we must understand that His Kingdom is not of this world, which is fery har for me…
 
You are contradicting. First, you say that it is more literal than metaphorical. Then, in the you speak of the “image”. Metaphor and Image are similar. Image is a metaphor devolopped. If I say: Life is a river, it is a metaphor. If I say that Life is a river: it jumps, sways, calms down, gets rough, etc, this is an image, a metaphor developed.

Attention: I find the metaphor of the King or the image, as you like, extremely Powerful, ore that saying tha Christ is the President of the Republic.

The problem with Jews is that they expected a worldly King and came to them a Heavenly King and they could not understand. I wouldn’t either if I were in their place.

So, to tell you the truth, next comes the feast of Christ the King, one of my favourites. But we must understand that His Kingdom is not of this world, which is fery har for me…
Thank you for pointing this out.
In my own defense though you will note that I said:
The Kingship of Christ, the Messiah, was something powerful and expected and would be understood in the Jewish, as well as in the wider world, as being more literal than metaphorical.
By using the modifier “more” I was trying to convey that their were elements of both the literal and metaphorical.
In addition I do not believe that “image” need only be related to something metaphorical. I have in my mind right now, the “image” of my wife. She is not metaphorical either in her person (her face that I see in my mind) or her title (my spouse, my dear one, my precious lady).

Thus I don’t believe I misused the terms, but perhaps I could have been clearer.

Peace
James
 
**Pfaffenhoffen,

I defer these literary terms to my wife when necessary. I wished I were much better at these terms, but I am making progress in this area as I become more educated in the art of teaching. I’ll need to understand this better.

An interesting event was Fr. Serpa on Catholic Answers Radio this evening. I heard him tell a woman that a parent should not say “I bless you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” as they, we, to not have that authority to bless as a priest. He said it gives the child the impression that our blessing is the same as that of a priest. The irony of this is that I kept bringing this up to my pastor because we, EMHCs, were instructed to do this as we signed the cross on those not receiving. I thought it was very odd, and even the instructor of the class made us stand as she did this to us. It offended me, but in obedience to our pastor, I just tolerated it.

I asked my pastor about lay blessings around 3 times over the past 4 years, and low and behold a miracle happened. Our bishop passed down to all parishes, instructions for EMHCs not to bless any longer. He had one of his deacons research the problem and the result was as I said, he explicityly instructed us not to do it any longer with the instructions informing us the difference, which I already knew. It is a futile act that give a false image of clergy not being anything else by lay men with black clothing. Someone on Catholic Answers called this “the laicization of the clergy and the clericalization of the laity” [something like that].

In spite of the bishop’s direction, who made no announcement to allow the touching of people that came forward, our pastor instructed us to touch the person coming forwards and say “may God bless you”. The problem with this is that it is not in the rubrics nor is it licit. The Eucharist crubs are also on the fiingers and really makes it difficult. Now I just touch with my little finger, that I do not allow to touch the Eucharist. In spite of how much I like him, I’m appalled that this is allowed.

I also hear far too many priests change the words of the Mass, which is prohibited by canon law. They are not allowed to EVER change any of the words of the sacraments. I understand when one gets tongue tied, but not on purpose. I hear so many priests with really strange ideas and beliefs that are not consistent with Church teaching. They forsake their vocation, probably unintentionally, giving the laity the illusion that we can do the same things they do. This is obviously a contamination spilled over from the Protestant world beliefs. And they don’t even see it. Having been on both sides of the fence, I have a unique perspective of seeing this as a problem. But, no wonder I left the Catholic Church in so much confusion in 1989. However, I returned in 2006 after reading more in depth history and teachings of the Church - merely by accident. Had CA Radio not come to my area, I might have continued to be lost. I was a seminarian and informed the vocation director my concerns about the seemingly promotion of homosexuality within my seminary and among other priests, which ultimately caused my spiritual director taht wahs

My point in saying this is that many of the clergy are promoting the wrong image of their own roles. I believe it is well intended, but even clergy seem to lack solid catechesis. There are far to many dissenting Catholics allowed to teach in Catholic institutions, particularly Universities and Seminaries. It’s very important that we NOT misrepresent the roles of lay and clergy.

And seeing movies like, THERESE, that show the father blessing his daughter as well as the Mother of her order doing the same. I believe that if this was done, it was illicit. It should at least have clarified what was taking place. So why was this allowed? Pardon me as I try to teach and learn at the same time. No wonder protestants have such a tainted view of Catholicism. We haven’t been fair to them by the poor examples that are mixed up among good examples.**
 
Thank you for pointing this out.
In my own defense though you will note that I said:
The Kingship of Christ, the Messiah, was something powerful and expected and would be understood in the Jewish, as well as in the wider world, as being more literal than metaphorical.”
By using the modifier “more” I was trying to convey that their were elements of both the literal and metaphorical.
In addition I do not believe that “image” need only be related to something metaphorical. I have in my mind right now, the “image” of my wife. She is not metaphorical either in her person (her face that I see in my mind) or her title (my spouse, my dear one, my precious lady).

Thus I don’t believe I misused the terms, but perhaps I could have been clearer.

Peace
James
The danger I see in you using the “more” literal is that you may fall into the meaning the Apostles were giving: literally a king, like any other king of Israel, David, Salomon, and so on. BUT, Jesus was talking metaphorically. He is a King, and He said: “Yes, I am a King” and was crucified as such. But not of this world.
We pray that His Kingdom may come, and what we say: Kingdom of Truth, Love, Justice, Peace, nothing to do with our Kings.
I accept that you think that we say metaphoric, it is not real. But metaphors are real, sometimes more real than real things.
You know Mickey Mouse (who is a personification, not real) gives more jobs to the USA than General Motors. MM is more real than GM !!!
 
Yes and no…

The Kingship of Christ, the Messiah, was something powerful and expected and would be understood in the Jewish, as well as in the wider world, as being more literal than metaphorical.

Even today, those Christian groups who are descended from the reformation would say that Jesus Christ is their King, Lord, Savior, etc. They would simply add that what we as Catholics see as a revolt by Luther and others, was not a revolt against the King but against corrupt officials etc. (It was not Luther’s original intent to break from the Church)

So - The image of the kingdom and the king as something real remains both valid and powerful. After all, Jesus himself said that the Father had granted Him all authority over the heavens and the earth. Such authority only a King (or emperor if you like) can wield.

Peace
James
I would agree.
 
**Pfaffenhoffen,

I defer these literary terms to my wife when necessary. I wished I were much better at these terms, but I am making progress in this area as I become more educated in the art of teaching. I’ll need to understand this better.
**

Well, if you are interested, just search:

figures of speech in the Bible
and in general
figures of speech

I find the subject fascinating.
Sometimes, priests and bishops take atitudes and give orders just to feel that they have authority. If they gave no orders, what was the bishop for. sometimes, as you noticed it is better not to ask like here in one and two.

That order is absolutely surrealistic. In the Old Testament, everybody gave blessings, above all old people to young people.

We say to ourselves: “In the name of the Father(…) of the Holy Spirit.Amen”. so, we give to ourselves and cannot give to others.

The Apostels said to Jesus: “look, someone is curing people in your name!”. Attention, it was not a blessing, it was “curing people”. And Jesus said, I dont know what, who is not against me if or me, or something like that…

We must accept oue beloved church as it is but there is great desorientation. Once, a priest (american) said the mass to us with a bottle of wine a common loaf of bread and with his own words. I tell you, it was a mass I never forget, he and his bottle of wine, but it is ridiculous. It is autocratic the same. For this priest, you count NOT celebrate with a chalice, it had to be with a bottle, it could not be a host, it had to be a loaf of bread, moreover leavened. So, trying to be liberal, you are more ditactorial than the others.

It could be worse. there was a time when we had 3 Popes and not even great saints like St. Catherine of Sienna could bring them into reason. It took dozens of years to get things on track.

that is why I love my church for it is divine: if it was human, it would be scatered in millions of pieces such is the human stupidity. Only God’s glue sticks our members together…
 
The once great Fr. Corapi, said “if it were a business it would have been bankrupt, if it were an army it would have been slaughtered,…” I found that statement to be profound and very accurate. It appears that human pride enters in the mix and blurs the boundaries at times. There is no way that the Catholic Church could have continued to exist if it weren’t led by the Holy Spirit. It’s the Providence of God at work.

Very well stated, Pfaffenhoffen. I think you misunderstood what I meant about imagery and metaphor. I know more than I let on, but I’ll check out your links. Sounds fun. And I’d like to clarify the statement that the Church had 3 popes. Actually there was only one pope and the other 2 were illicit attempts to be portrayed as pope.
 
The once great Fr. Corapi, said “if it were a business it would have been bankrupt, if it were an army it would have been slaughtered,…” I found that statement to be profound and very accurate. It appears that human pride enters in the mix and blurs the boundaries at times. There is no way that the Catholic Church could have continued to exist if it weren’t led by the Holy Spirit. It’s the Providence of God at work.

Very well stated, Pfaffenhoffen. I think you misunderstood what I meant about imagery and metaphor. I know more than I let on, but I’ll check out your links. Sounds fun. And I’d like to clarify the statement that the Church had 3 popes. Actually there was only one pope and the other 2 were illicit attempts to be portrayed as pope.
NO, I did misundertood you. You were self-effacing, well, I do have to stud that and so on… that is the disadvantages of being Humble !!!..
You understood when I said 3 Popes. All of them said that they were the Pope and till now we can argue who wa…
 
NO, I did misundertood you. You were self-effacing, well, I do have to stud that and so on… that is the disadvantages of being Humble !!!..
You understood when I said 3 Popes. All of them said that they were the Pope and till now we can argue who wa…
This issue has already been resolved in my mind. I’ve heard all the arguments related to it and discovered that the actual Pope is known to be Pope Gregory XII, who later resigned for the good of the body of Christ. The other two were deposed as antipopes

The following is a pretty good summary of what I uncovered:
There followed various efforts to heal the schism, but these failed and, ultimately, there were three claimants to the papacy: the legitimate pope, Gregory XII and two antipopes, Benedict XIII and Alexander V. Alexander was succeeded as antipope by John XXIII (not, in any way to be confused with the legitimate pope and blessed of the 20th century). To find some resolution to the crisis, Emperor Sigismund and many Church leaders proposed a general council. The result was the Council of Constance, 1414-1417. After long deliberations, the antipopes John and Benedict were deposed and Pope Gregory, for the good of the Church, voluntarily resigned. Oddone Colonna was then elected and took the name Pope Martin V, at last ending the schism and uniting the Church.
Anyway, this was one of the many research pilgrimages that I went on to figure out if the Catholic Church was legit, which determined whether or not I would return. I’m sorry if you haven’t run across this information. I have. But for me it’s a mute point now. Since I’m not working towards proselytizing any longer as a fundamentalist, I have no interest in trying to convince you or anyone else…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top