Kirk Cameron--not a wimp

[Kitty_Chan]

Firstly, I was mistaken. I thought you were saying that I did not pay attention to the “debate,” if you want to call it that, not Kirk and Ray’s “method.”
That said, their method is built around walking up to people on the streets in order to persecute and condem from their high chair. It’s not the most inviting method, and many people are going to walk away angry rather than into the arms of God and his Church, as is evidenced on their television show.

well now, I dont know. There is a street ministry in the city. They were passive with people, and some showed up. Then somehow a decision was made I cant remember exactly how. But the result was they preached just as Kirk does. And the park where they meet, was overflowing. People were being baptisted in the river.

There is of course the usual outcry that they are distrubing the peace even though the proper permits are there. And those who are not street people dont go there anyway. So the ministry is fighting it.

And they have the support of ALL the local downtown churches who the street people who are saved are going to. Sometimes just the raw truth speaks to people. Some need to understand (like already said) that they arent as great as they think they are and actually need God.

Snowflakes none are the same, just like us. Thats why Gods Word does not return void. Hes on levels we havent even considered.

 

[HeyMoe1287]

well now, I dont know. There is a street ministry in the city. They were passive with people, and some showed up. Then somehow a decision was made I cant remember exactly how. But the result was they preached just as Kirk does. And the park where they meet, was overflowing. People were being baptisted in the river.

But there’s a difference between being passive, and plain name calling, as Kirk and Ray practice. It’s just not effective in the long run. There’s a reason many people out there believe that we as Christians are “closed minded bigots,” or “hypocrites,” and this type of preaching could very well be it. It drives people away more than it brings them in. Who wants to be called a lying thief, lying and thieving though they may be? I’m not saying they shouldn’t repent, but they will only view it as judging, as many of them do, and turn away. Pile on top of that the bias they already hold against Christianity. Not a good plan for success.

 

[Atemi]

That said, their method is built around walking up to people on the streets in order to persecute and condem from their high chair.

Huh?

Yes. It does seem you are not paying attention to their methodology.

It’s not the most inviting method, and many people are going to walk away angry rather than into the arms of God and his Church, as is evidenced on their television show.

Actually, most people do NOT walk away angry from them. In reality, it is most often the opposite.

You have missed the point and the sincerity and gentleness of their dealings.

…

 

[Atemi]

But there’s a difference between being passive, and plain name calling, as Kirk and Ray practice.

They do not call anyone names. This is careless.

It’s just not effective in the long run. There’s a reason many people out there believe that we as Christians are “closed minded bigots,” or “hypocrites,” and this type of preaching could very well be it.

If it is, then that is the sin of the world, not the preaching of the Gospel.

It drives people away more than it brings them in. Who wants to be called a lying thief, lying and thieving though they may be?

First of all, they do not call anyone a lying thief, but only bring out, in the person’s own admission, that they are indeed liars and thieves.

That is the whole point…to expose the very fallen nature of man and the necessity of a Savior.

You say “lying and thieving though they may be,” but you are totally uncomfortable with them knowing it!

That is no way to spread the Gospel because only the heart that has the knowledge of sin can repent.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t repent

What will they repent of if they believe they are guiltless of wrongdoing deserving eternal punishment and separation from God?

This is the entire point of the exercise.

You say they should repent, but will not dare tell them.

How can the Christian be afraid of warning the blind man that he is headed towards the edge of the cliff merely because he does not want to “offend” them?

That is not love.

but they will only view it as judging, as many of them do, and turn away. Pile on top of that the bias they already hold against Christianity. Not a good plan for success.

The “good plan for success” is to share the Gospel as commanded by Christ and that is what they do.

Insisting they sit on the sidelines because they may hurt someone’s feelings is not the Christian way.

The Gospel is designed to offend. Christ, by definition, is an offense.

If someone is not offending anyone, they are not spreading the Gospel.

…

 

[HeyMoe1287]

Huh?
Yes. It does seem you are not paying attention to their methodology.
Actually, most people do NOT walk away angry from them. In reality, it is most often the opposite.
You have missed the point and the sincerity and gentleness of their dealings.
…

I’m sorry it seems that way to you. Unfortunately, I can’t argue against ignorance.

 

[Atemi]

I’m sorry it seems that way to you. Unfortunately, I can’t argue against ignorance.

LOL. That’s what I have been trying to say to you as well.

Maybe you should pay more attention to the realities of their ministry before commenting about it.

…

 

[HeyMoe1287]

They do not call anyone names. This is careless.

“Then you’re a thief.” Sounds like a name call to me.

If it is, then that is the sin of the world, not the preaching of the Gospel.

I agree. But non-Christians will not view it as so, obviously. Instead, they feel judged. Sorry.

First of all, they do not call anyone a lying thief, but only bring out, in the person’s own admission, that they are indeed liars and thieves.
That is the whole point…to expose the very fallen nature of man and the necessity of a Savior.
You say “lying and thieving though they may be,” but you are totally uncomfortable with them knowing it!
That is no way to spread the Gospel because only the heart that has the knowledge of sin can repent.
What will they repent of if they believe they are guiltless of wrongdoing deserving eternal punishment and separation from God?
This is the entire point of the exercise.
You say they should repent, but will not dare tell them.
How can the Christian be afraid of warning the blind man that he is headed towards the edge of the cliff merely because he does not want to “offend” them?
That is not love.
The “good plan for success” is to share the Gospel as commanded by Christ and that is what they do.
Insisting they sit on the sidelines because they may hurt someone’s feelings is not the Christian way.
The Gospel is designed to offend. Christ, by definition, is an offense.
If someone is not offending anyone, they are not spreading the Gospel.
…

I’m not saying it’s wrong to offend someone, but rather, that offending someone on purpose, or bringing out their sins, and SCARING THEM INTO loving God by threats of eternal damnation, indeed is.

edit Therefore, bring them into the Church first, and THEN talk about their repentance and reconciliation.

And with that, goodnight, and God bless.

 

[HeyMoe1287]

LOL. That’s what I have been trying to say to you as well.
…

Hey! Then that’s two things we agree on!

 

[Nicene]

What will they repent of if they believe they are guiltless of wrongdoing deserving eternal punishment and separation from God?

This is the entire point of the exercise.

You say they should repent, but will not dare tell them.

Lk 18:10: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12: I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.' 13: But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me a sinner!’
14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Rom 1:1: Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.
2: We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things.

How can the Christian be afraid of warning the blind man that he is headed towards the edge of the cliff merely because he does not want to “offend” them?

And yet OSAS is people running towards the edge without warning. However I have utilized the same language towards you that you utilize, illuminating that fallacy, and interestingly enough you get extremely offended.

You’ll also note that the apostles didn’t go around pointing out everyones sins to convert them they preached Christ without the condemnation. The only rebukes they invoked were to the christian churches and those in heresy.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Kitty_Chan]

But there’s a difference between being passive, and plain name calling, as Kirk and Ray practice. It’s just not effective in the long run. There’s a reason many people out there believe that we as Christians are “closed minded bigots,” or “hypocrites,” and this type of preaching could very well be it. It drives people away more than it brings them in. Who wants to be called a lying thief, lying and thieving though they may be? I’m not saying they shouldn’t repent, but they will only view it as judging, as many of them do, and turn away. Pile on top of that the bias they already hold against Christianity. Not a good plan for success.

Well as that street ministry explains it they got a bull horn and starting talking about how the people were in sin. they realised yea they were right and became honest with themselves.

I do understand the closed minded bigots thing, but thats from atheist types who are hostile to God. Its also their excuse. If they cut a christian down then they look larger (mind you thats not a exclusive atheist trait) Even if you say it passive then this type of person you describe will just excuse that away too.

Now who we shouldnt call down like that is other christians just because they dont get our particular way. You can do their method in a gentle way through discussion as well, depends on your audience.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

What about Scott Hahn or Father Corapi. I personally have never heard them speak or read anything by them, but the catholics here talk about them all the time.

Let me know when you would like to hear him speak - even if just to know what we are talking about.

I would be most happy to send you some of his recordings.

 

[Atemi]

I’m not saying it’s wrong to offend someone, but rather, that offending someone on purpose, or bringing out their sins, and SCARING THEM INTO loving God by threats of eternal damnation, indeed is.

You cannot scare anyone into loving God. Again, you miss the point.

To avoid telling people that they will be judged, and that they must repent as per the command of Christ Himself, is careless.

edit Therefore, bring them into the Church first, and THEN talk about their repentance and reconciliation.

What??

Bring them into the church first?

That is impossible.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ without repentance and faith first.

And many folks today truly believe they have nothing really to repent of.

But you will not tell them they must repent as Christ and His Apostles did.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ unless you first believe the Gospel…but you cannot believe the Gospel if you do not repent…but you are scared to tell folks they must repent at the risk they may get offended.

The is a horrible quandry you are in.

…

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You cannot scare anyone into loving God. Again, you miss the point.

To avoid telling people that they will be judged, and that they must repent as per the command of Christ Himself, is careless.

What??

Bring them into the church first?

That is impossible.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ without repentance and faith first.

And many folks today truly believe they have nothing really to repent of.

But you will not tell them they must repent as Christ and His Apostles did.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ unless you first believe the Gospel…but you cannot believe the Gospel if you do not repent…but you are scared to tell folks they must repent at the risk they may get offended.

The is a horrible quandry you are in.

…

We have entered a sensitive terra icognita on this one.

Is conversion an ongoing experience? As a revert, I say yes. And I rather think this is a false dichotomy in a world of various and sundry spiritual paths.

Some lifelong Catholics go decades before a good conversion. Some seekers knock on the rectory door able to write a dissertation.

My uncle became Catholic for marriage purposes… decades after being widowed (very young) and subsequently marrying another Catholic, he has experienced an amazing conversion.

Ex-abortionist Dr. Bernard Nathenson came the other way…

What comes first? The Paraclete decides.

 

[Nicene]

You cannot scare anyone into loving God. Again, you miss the point.

To avoid telling people that they will be judged, and that they must repent as per the command of Christ Himself, is careless.

What??

Bring them into the church first?

That is impossible.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ without repentance and faith first.

And many folks today truly believe they have nothing really to repent of.

But you will not tell them they must repent as Christ and His Apostles did.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ unless you first believe the Gospel…but you cannot believe the Gospel if you do not repent…but you are scared to tell folks they must repent at the risk they may get offended.

The is a horrible quandry you are in.

…

Lets see, so far you have shown our “spirit baptism” to be a fraud, now you show a false spirit indwells within you proclaiming the opposite to the gospel:

1 Cor 14:9: So with yourselves; if you in a tongue utter speech that is not intelligible, how will any one know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.
10: There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning;
11: but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.
12: So with yourselves; since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
13: Therefore, he who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.
14: For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
15: What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
16: Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
17: For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
18: I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;
19: nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20: Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature.
21: In the law it is written, “By men of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22: Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
23: If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24: But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,

And apparently the Body of Christ is a building to fundamentalists instead of the truth, that the people are the temple of God.

A horrible quandary you are in. What will you do now?

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[clmowry]

I think that Catholics have come to rely, in general, on the ordained and religious to do most of our evangilization for us.

Sort of been that way for most of the last 2000 years or so.

Catholic lay folks seem to have mostly been in the “be a good witness in the way we live our lives” mode.

My observation would be that we are often eager to share our faith with someone who asks, but we don’t generally promote our faith.

We tend to focus on works of mercy with a little religious witness mixed in with faith that this will draw others to Christ.

Frankly I’d like to see the Catholic lay population get a bit more aggressive in our evangilization.

Some nice Catholic boys going door to door on bikes might not be a bad idea.

Chuck

 

[HeyMoe1287]

You cannot scare anyone into loving God.

I agree. And I think it’s sad that they try.

To avoid telling people that they will be judged, and that they must repent as per the command of Christ Himself, is careless.

I agree, but it shouldn’t be the first thing, nor should it be the deciding factor on whether or not someone decides to become Christian.

What??
Bring them into the church first?
That is impossible.
You cannot enter the Body of Christ without repentance and faith first.

Well, you got half of that right. Almost!

And many folks today truly believe they have nothing really to repent of.
But you will not tell them they must repent as Christ and His Apostles did.

As Nicene said, never did the Apostles ever go around judging people, nor did they tell them that they risk being thrown into “the lake of fire” in order to bring them to God. Wrong.

You cannot enter the Body of Christ unless you first believe the Gospel…but you cannot believe the Gospel if you do not repent…but you are scared to tell folks they must repent at the risk they may get offended.

You can absolutely believe in the Gospels first. In fact, YOU MUST. Otherwise, why the heck would you feel the need to repent? And we Christians can inform someone that they may need to repent after they come to Christ, but not before. That’s just not the proper thing to do. Secondly, stop trying to read souls. Not your job.

The is a horrible quandry you are in.

lol

 

[m134e5]

Have you lied? LIAR!!
Have you ever stolen? THIEF!!!
I can’t stand it. Obviously these guys don’t believe in FORGIVENESS.

I’ve seen the show where they do that…that is just plain CRUEL! Somehow I doubt the people they interview are just random people walking around town like it seems- but they are teaching people to do that. You don’t win people over by making them ashamed of themselves. That is why I left Christianity in high school. I was taught that people weren’t authentic Christians if they sinned or had doubts from time to time. I sinned all the time. I hated going to church. I didn’t by the sugar-coated personalities and spiritual highs people came out of church on- especially not when they were even worse about pushing away those they didn’t think were holy enough.

Kirk Cameron was funny on Growing Pains, but then he grew up and got way too…fundamentalist…for me. We need more young Catholic evangelists.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Im protastant and have never heard someone say to me I had to witness or Id be held responsible.

Hi Kitty, Ezekiel 3:

18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[NPS]

I watched most of the Kirk Cameron/Ray Comfort debate with two atheists today. Like Mark Shea said, I thought it was going to be a bloodbath. QUITE the contrary–the “fundies” started off strong and the atheists were pathetic. However, Kirk and Ray lost a lot of steam by breaking one of the main ground rules–arguing from scripture when they said they could prove God’s existence without it–and utterly blowing a chance to obliterate the atheists’ weak rebuttals by using it as “witnessing time.”

Anyway, I took a look at the Way of the Master site they run and watched a couple of “witnessing videos.” Their system is well-polished and I think by putting people on the defensive it goes really far. I don’t recommend this method, but at least on some people, it seems to work.

One video in particular left me stunned: Cameron went up to a bunch of Hispanic gangbangers and FEARLESSLY presented the bare bones Gospel. (Obligatory disclaimer–there isn’t a snowball’s chance in H.E. Double Hockey Stick Land that I would ever leave the Barque of Peter). These are guys I would walk around TOWN to avoid. But he got in their faces with love and respect. It was truly humbling for me, a guy who likes to smirk at the unwashed Protestants from high on my pillar.

Speaking very generally here, it seems that Catholicism can fend off any attack very easily. As we see on this site and elsewhere, anti-Catholic attacks wind up hurting the brains of Catholicism’s foes. On the other hand, evangelicals are phenomenal about, well, evangelizing. It seems like a demonic joke–those who “possess” the fullness of the truth don’t seem to care to share it, and those who don’t are the most aggressive about spreading their errors. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”

I question Cameron’s methods, but man, I gotta admire his courage…

Oh gosh, MM, I was far less impressed. I haven’t seen the entire debate but the Nightline story of it is on Youtube and I just watched the video stories on the “Way of the Master” after your mention.
To keep it short–both debate sides were fairly weak and I got the feeling things could be better served by letting each member of the audience take two minutes of stage time.

The “Witnessing” videos on their website are almost disturbing. Although Cameron is likable and obviously sincere, I don’t see a lot of courage necessary:

*Go out on the mean streets of Santa Monica ( ), camera crew in tow.

*Ask various people for permission to interview them.

*Find someone with little biblical and religious knowledge who agrees to an on-camera interview.

*(Most importantly)The interviewee is already operating in a christian-based mindset, which we can tell by their ready acceptance of what “the bible says” and the authority of the ten commandmants–never questioning Jesus’ divinity and authority whatsoever.

*The interviewee, as virtually everyone does, already has his/her own thoughts and feelings of moral and spiritual questions and has doubts about their own destiny.

*Keep the unknowledgeable person on the defensive and guide them through a series of leading questions.

*Make generalizations about what “the bible says…” and present your own interpretation as that of the bible itself.

*Lead them along, prodding their doubts about themselves and eternity and finally reveal what they must do “before they go to bed tonight” never mentioning what questions all this supposed “evangelizing” brings up afterward

*Cut—walk away. Another soul “saved”.

Courage?!?!? It’s almost goofy. I’ve had better and deeper interactions over beers. What passes for evangelizing among many American christians astounds me.

 

[Hellisreal]

I would like to know what the atheists thought about all this. Are there any on this forum?

I would also like to know if atheists have any thoughts on where they went wrong in the dialouge.