KJV Bible and Catholics

[twb1621]

Interesting perspective. Now I know why they don’t worry about me.

And my friend, I would be interested in knowing why you believe the Catholic Church is the true church. Perhaps there is another thread for that in this forum. I am interested in knowing - how you know.

Thanks for the reference site regarding the Apocrypha questions. It didn’t open for me this go around will try again later. Another questions - Are there any Born Again Catholics?

My Best - Vinny

RE: Post #28
Well Vinny, I’ll try to condense it. I was raised Catholic and attended all Catholic Schools but once I became an “adult” I drifted off in my own direction. At age 21 I went into law enforcement and worked in many specialized units of municipal and later federal agencies receiving appropriate training in each based on specialty which allowed for a very diversified background in training and life experiences. I was a highly respected professional investigator and agent in my areas and late in my career I went private and trained investigators and many other professionals in specialized areas of interest through my own agency. But during those years I developed my own “religious beliefs” based on my opinions in opposition to certain Catholic teachings and those I adopted based on my own beliefs, primary that popular philosophy that “…all that mattered to God was what was in your heart and you do the best you can, that it makes no difference what faith you belong to…” that kind of thing. I was separated from the Catholic Church for 0ver 25 years.

After several life events took place that led me to question not having God in my life but still having opinions adverse to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other Christian denominations and non-denominational forms of worship. What a hodgepodge of Bible versions and interpretations I found. I believed in Christ but that was as far as it went at that point and a Catholic priest told me I was “too analytical” and it was interfering with my faith. I was sure I was analytical which is what made me so successful in my profession, it was necessary to perform an accurate investigation, but I didn’t accept being “Too Analytical”. What I had to make sure of for myself is that if I was going to be in a Church, I had to believe it to be the True Church, so I stepped back and researched Christianity with the tools of my profession both from recent days to its origin, then from it’s origin to today. I researched every point that came up in any form of question and that led directly to the Catholic Church which led me to use the Bible of the Catholic Church along with many other resources. I also realized how much my adoption of my own beliefs when I was younger was no different than those who founded other Christian faiths, which explained in part why there are so many. In studying scripture I began with the New Testament and went backward to the Old Testament. In doing it that way I was able to better put together the links in the prophecies of the coming of the messiah to the Life of Jesus. To simplify my answer to you, I analytically performed my own investigation over more than five years and without doubt proved to myself the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and that there are more than enough assertions by Christ himself to solidify that if you are to believe in Jesus, you have to believe in His Word and His word is a covenant that part of which asserted His Church would never fail even with the heresies and corruption that would infest her at times. That those who persevered in her would be saved by His word. In all this study and research I became ashamed of myself over those issues I disagreed with in the teachings of the Catholic Faith for so many years. I realized those teachings where instructed by Jesus to the apostles and carried on through the Sacred Tradition and Scripture. I also realized the biggest problem that causes some Catholics to be distant or weak in the practice of their faith is unintentional ignorance by way of a lack of study and knowledge in the Word of God. Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They must realize it is every person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.

 

[requiemaeturnum]

What i mean by taking it out of context to justify behavior is that it was probably a single line in a sermon or lecture that had a lot more context. I don’t have that speech but supect the good Pope talked about the first and second commandments, love of God and fellowman, recommended appraoches, etc.

Lots of reasons, but perhaps most of all it was the Spirit of it…

Please define heresy.

Vinny

---

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isa. 5: 20

Heresy= anything that is contrary to Sacred Tradition, the Dogmas of the Church, Sacred Scripture, etc.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I answered your question.

Who gives you or I gives us the right to condemn people and Bible translations? God!!

“Not to oppose error is to support it, not to defend the truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can, is no less a sin then to encourage them”

• Pope St. Felix III

God most certainly doesn’t gives us the right to condemn anyone. He would never choose to do so. He is the only one that can judge the living and the dead. You might want to memorize the Nicene creed, if you even know what the Nicene creed actually is(which I even doubt you do). Yes we are called to correct error. The statement you provided from Pope St. Felix III is a statement and not dogma. As Catholic and as Christians we are to love another help guide one another as well. Condemning people to hell because of this and that is not very Christian like. I feel it appropriate to state your displeasure with the King James Version, but please grow up and be respectful of others

 

[requiemaeturnum]

God most certainly doesn’t gives us the right to condemn anyone. He would never choose to do so. He is the only one that can judge the living and the dead. You might want to memorize the Nicene creed, if you even know what the Nicene creed actually is(which I even doubt you do). Yes we are called to correct error. The statement you provided from Pope St. Felix III is a statement and not dogma. As Catholic and as Christians we are to love another help guide one another as well. Condemning people to hell because of this and that is not very Christian like. I feel it appropriate to state your displeasure with the King James Version, but please grow up and be respectful of others

Did I ever condemn anyone to Hell? That is for God to do.

And you insult me by saying that I am ignorant. I memorize the Nicene Creed in Latin thank you very much. And in case you didn’t know, I am preparing for the priesthood. We don’t need priests who say that other religions are good- we need priests that reaffirm all other religions are paths to damnation.

 

[VinnyDee78]

RE: Post #28
Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They must realize it is every person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.

Hi Tom – Thank you for going into the detail that you did – I appreciate an honest man’s reply to a sincere question more than you can know. I am an engineer and have a similar systematic approach to reason and logic and also have a similar background as you have (except I attended public schools). I wasn’t really that interested in changing or choosing a religion when I was 21… it happened like this. My roommate at the Naval Academy was Catholic and joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in our freshman/plebe year. For weeks and maybe months I gave him a hard time, saying that he joined that church because of his Mormon girlfriend (whom he later married and had 5 kids with)… but he asserted it was the true church (like Catholics do). I replied like most Catholics then and as you mention also that there was good in all churches. One late night he surprisingly agreed with me – yeah I did join because of her, but since I have been a member I have found that there is “much, much, more.” Now I was interested in knowing what that much, much more might be. He asked me what I really believed in, and along with my very Catholic beliefs in Christ, I believed that there was a people that understood ‘why things are the way they are.’ At his suggestion I agreed to meet with the missionaries to see what ‘more’ they had for me. Their first question to me also surprised me. They asked, “Do you believe Moses was a prophet?” I thought for a moment and said “Yes, sure, my parents always taught me to believe that, the Ten Commandments and all.” Then they asked me another key question… “Do you believe a prophet can exist in our day?” Again another pensive moment. “Why not? Who am I to tell God what he can do or what he can’t have? If he wanted to have a prophet today, then he certainly will and who am I to tell him otherwise!” Then it got interesting as they introduced me to modern day prophets (never heard the Joseph Smith First Vision account before). The story doesn’t end here – now they had my attention – “Why haven’t I heard about this before?”… like I was all knowing or something. After their 6 or so discussions they challenged me to be baptized. I was not ready for that question, as I was not searching for a church to join – though there was a lot about the church and activities I enjoyed. I put them off for forty-five days and said I’d consider it… well, five days past that I attended a Priesthood (men only) session of General Conference (semi-annual telecast from SLC – no video feed in 1976, only sound). At this conference I heard the voice of a modern day prophet (Spencer W. Kimball). I was expecting to hear a Charlton Hesston-like character with the tablets in his arms yelling “Free My People!” but instead was moved by this man’s humility and counsel. I felt the Spirit of it and within said, I could follow this man. His counsel was about the equality of white and blue collar workers, maintaining a gardens and clean homes, being prepared, and his testimony of Christ was penetrating and humble. There were other talks that night that seemed to address all of my concerns – like raising a glass of water when others raised their beer in salute (I was in the Navy and that was the way of the world – still is). I made my decision that night to be baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ and have never regretted a moment as my journey continues (like you observed in your own life) on the road to knowing and loving him, grace for grace. That was thirty years ago, and since that time have found out what the ‘much, much more’ is that my roommate, though green in the faith’ meant. Perhaps it was the Spirit of it. Like you, I continue to hunger and thirst after righteousness, to know the truth or why things are the way they are.

If intellectual deduction and methodical reasoning was your initial path, it appears to be more than that now – God bless. How do you and perhaps all Catholics reckon with Ephesians 4:11-16 (D-R and KJV are very close)?

My Best - Vinny​

“And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.” John 1: 16

We believe that “truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come.” D&C 93:24

 

[requiemaeturnum]

Vinny- I have a question.

Without turning this into a flame war or debate, can you tell me why you believe the utter idiocy found in the Book of the Mormon?

 

[RosaryGirl_777]

I have never seen a NAB with the Apocrypha. And what I mean by apocrypha I mean III and IV Esdras(Protestants refer to those to as I and II Esdras and) Our I and II are in the Douay-Rheims as I Esdras and II Esdras aka Nehemias). I and II Esdras are also in the NAB as Ezra and Nehemiah. The other apocrypha book I am talking about is the Prayer of Manasses or aka Prayer of Manassah. I have never heard the NAB or RSV-CE having those 3 books. Protestants also consider those 3 books as well as Tobias (Tobit), Judith, I and II Machabees (Maccabees), Wisdom, Baruch and Ecclesiasticus (Sirach). The books Tobias, Judith, I and II Machabees, Wisdom, Baruch and Ecclesiasticus are not apocrypha to Catholics and are considered scriptural list as Deutrocanonical also there are parts of Esther and Daniel that are considered Apocryphal to Protestants that are canonical to us. Other Apocryphal books that were never part of Catholic scripture include Psalm 151 and the Letter to Laedocians and the book of Enoch. Although there are references to the book of Enoch in Jude and certain verses in 2 Peter I believe also are in reference to the book of Enoch, but not directly quoted

Sorry I thought you meant the book that protestants usually call the Apocrypha. I’ve never heard of the other books they sound interesting though.

 

[twb1621]

Hi Tom – Thank you for going into the detail that you did… How do you and perhaps all Catholics reckon with Ephesians 4:11-16 (D-R and KJV are very close)?

My Best - Vinny​

Your very welcome Vinny… Regarding
Eph: Chapter 4
1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2* with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8* Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15* Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16* from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. 17 Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds; 18 they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart; 19 they have become callous and have given themselves up to licentiousness, greedy to practice every kind of uncleanness. 20 You did not so learn Christ!-- 21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus. 22 Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. 25* Therefore, putting away falsehood, let every one speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. 26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and give no opportunity to the devil. 28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his hands, so that he may be able to give to those in need. 29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, 32 and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Clearly this is speaking to those of the body of Christ, the members of the Church at that time and in reading the chapter it is clearly asserted that “…there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all”, the Church he is speaking to and of is the Church founded by Jesus, the Catholic Church. It is a call to all to remain Holy and Together in the body of Christ, which is the church.

In reference to the following excerpt;
“…11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15* Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16* from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love.” He is referring to those who have been then assigned to their ministries during the building period of the Church.
It is important to remember that Jesus is the “final” Word of God. There will not be prophets per say to proclaim any additional word beyond that which He proclaimed.
Continued next Post
2 0f 2

 

[twb1621]

Post 2 of 2

The most compelling to the subject of the True Church is;
Jesus said,
“But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Mat. Ch 16. 15-19)
“…. Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.” (Mat. Ch 24. 11-13)

“…Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the Holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock. And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them. So be vigilant and remember that for three years, night and day, I unceasingly admonished each of you with tears. And now I commend you to God and to that gracious word of his that can build you up and give you the inheritance among all who are consecrated. I have never wanted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You know well that these very hands have served my needs and my companions. In every way I have shown you that by hard work of that sort we must help the weak, and keep in mind the words of the Lord Jesus who himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’" (Acts Ch 20. 28-35)

As I previously said, to claim belief in Jesus you must believe in His Word, His convenant. These words are clearly spoken. History and apostolic Succession have remained in tact since the beginning.

 

[rinnie]

Vinny what does 2 Peter 2 1-22 mean to you. Especially 2 peter 2:21?

 

[twb1621]

Regarding Apocrypha:
"The Council of Trent (1545-1564) infallibly reiterated what the Church had long taught regarding the canons of the Old and New Testaments. Pope Damasus promulgated the Catholic canons at the Synod of Rome in A.D. 382, and later, at the regional councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), the Church again defined the same list of books as inspired.

The canons of the Old and New Testaments, as defined by Pope Damasus and the Councils of Hippo and Carthage, were later ratified (thought the books were not enumerated individually) by the later Ecumenical councils of II Nicaea (787) and Florence (1438-1445). Although the Council of Trent, in response to the Protestant violation of the Bible by deleting the seven Deuterocanonical books plus portions of Daniel and Esther, was the first infallible conciliar listing of each individual book, it certainly did not add those books to the canon.

If that were the case, how could Martin Luther and the other Reformers have objected to the presence of those books decades before the Council of Trent if they weren’t in the canon to begin with and were added by the Council of Trent?: New Advent

"…All Christians - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant - agree that the Books in the Bible are the inspired, written Word of God but disagree on which Books belong in the Bible. Specifically we do not agree on the Old Testament (OT) canon - the list of Books inspired by God. The Catholic OT Canon includes - Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, I and II Maccabees - plus sections of Esther and Daniel which are absent from the Protestant OT. Protestant Christians do not accept these Writings as inspired by God and refer to them as the “Apocrypha”.

Sometimes this problem is used to defame the Catholic Church. As an example, John Ankerberg and John Weldon in their book, The Facts on Roman Catholicism, write:

Catholicism teaches that Scripture involves more than the canon accepted by the Jews, Jesus and the Church of the first four centuries, i.e., the 39 books of the Protestant Old Testament. [A&W, p.33]

Allegedly the Catholic Church added to the OT that Jesus used.

Now it may be true that Protestants share the same OT canon as Jews today; however, the situation was a little different during the time of Jesus. The Jews before the 2nd century A.D. did not appear to have a rigidly defined OT canon. In the words of James King West, a Protestant Bible scholar:

The Scriptures of Judaism were not, therefore, a precisely defined body of literature absolutely set apart from all other literature, but a central body of material, the Torah (i.e. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deut.), which from the time of Ezra had remained fixed as… the Scriptures par excellence, surrounded by other interpretive material of varying degrees of importance and authority. [S&W, p. OT 432]

By the time of Christ, all Jews accepted the five Books of Moses - the Torah - as Scripture; however, Books, like Esther and Ecclesiastes, were debated. From the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Jews at Qumran apparently read and copied Tobit, The Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch 6) and Sirach as Scripture, while Esther is missing from the scrolls. [JBC, pp. 522 & 565] Unfortunately we can only speculate on what Jesus thought on this issue. No where in the New Testament (NT) does Jesus or His Apostles present a complete list of the OT Books or even discuss this issue.

Before the 2nd century, most Palestian Jews preferred a canon loosely similar to the Protestant OT; however, the Greek-speaking Jews preferred the larger canon found in the Greek Septuagint Bible - a 2nd-century B.C. Greek translation of the Hebrew Scripture. It was the “Bible” for the Greek-speaking Jews. When the Apostles began to evangelize the Greek-speaking Jews and Gentiles, they used the already established Septuagint as their Bible. Using the Hebrew Scripture would have been as effective as using a Russian Bible to evangelize Americans. The Septuagint served to bridge the culture gap. Quickly the Greek-speaking converts outnumbered the Hebrew Christians. Scholars also recognize that the NT writers quoted extensively from the Septuagint, e.g. Matt. 1:23. The Septuagint became the OT of the early Church. [S&W, p. OT 433]

Only after the destruction of the Temple and debates with Christians, the Pharisees at Jamnia finally limited the Hebrew Canon in the 2nd century A.D. - a century after the Resurrection of Christ. They restricted the Hebrew Canon to Books written before 400 B.C. in Hebrew. They also rejected the Septuagint claiming it to be corrupted by the Christians. [S&W, p. OT 433]

In the mid-2nd century, St. Justin Martyr in his Dialogue With Trypho commented on the difference between the Christian OT and the Hebrew Canon. Tertullian during this period also commented on this difference. [JBC, p. 523] These comments and concerns would have been inappropriate, if the early Christians and Jews shared the same OT canon…"

continued at users.binary.net/polycarp/apocry.html

 

[rinnie]

Vinny, Also If I may ask, I understand that Moses was a Prophet but he was not Jesus. But here is the thing, nothing that Moses taught goes against the RCC today or back then. Yes, I agree that back then Jesus sent Prophets and we are all to do the work of Christ. But the thing is if Jesus wanted us to follow other’s instead of his Apostles, why did he leave them here, and tell us not to follow anyone that goes against the Church. Why did he leave the Church to Peter and tell him he holds the keys. And why did those keys get passed down to this day. And why is the RCC still here, just like Christ promised. Why did he not say there will be another Prophet that will come and lead you another way. But instead he said for us not to be led away. To stay with the Tradition and teachings of the Church? He told us that he would guard the Church he is the Church and will be until he comes again in glory. He said he will come back the same way he left. Where does it say in the bible to leave the Church and follow a self proclaimed prophet named Joseph. Please no disrespect just asking?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Sorry I thought you meant the book that protestants usually call the Apocrypha. I’ve never heard of the other books they sound interesting though.

That’s quite alright. I am sure all are of some inspiration of God.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Did I ever condemn anyone to Hell? That is for God to do.

And you insult me by saying that I am ignorant. I memorize the Nicene Creed in Latin thank you very much. And in case you didn’t know, I am preparing for the priesthood. We don’t need priests who say that other religions are good- we need priests that reaffirm all other religions are paths to damnation.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I never called you ignorant. If I did please point the word “ignorant” in a passage that I posted. I would reconsider the priesthood, until you fully recognize what the church teaches as well what the Bible states too. How can a man remove a splinter in his brother’s eye when he hasn’t removed the splinter in his own eye? So you are admitting you are anti-protestant and everyone, but Catholics are going to hell?? Please explain. These are just signs of total bigotry and selfishness.

Vinny- I have a question.

Without turning this into a flame war or debate, can you tell me why you believe the utter idiocy found in the Book of the Mormon?

This is totally uncalled for. It is rude, inconsiderate and unchristian like. We must help those who err in truth with kindness and open arms rather than condemnation and damnation. Vinny is just a normal person looking for answers as all are we. Even though he isn’t of the Catholic faith doesn’t make him a bad person and you should not trash his beliefs the way you have. I this manner that you have demonstrated is demeaningful and disrespectful to just me or Vinny, but Catholic, Christians and God. Based on all the post I have read that you have posted, they seem filled with hatred and bigotry. Please stop and think what you are doing before you do it.

Vinny,

I am sorry for this man’s behavior towards you. Sorry I haven’t answered your posts yet. I will soon. You are a good man. Never lose faith.

 

[tobinatorstark]

I am not sure I follow you here. Please take a step back and give me your definition of grace. If she had to be full of it, than what was it. And can you also tell me where you derive her calling to lead people to Christ - was it by virtue of her participation in the plan or was there some scripture you had in mind here.

I looked at the thread on Hail, full of grace and could spend a lifetime deciphering all of the dialog on the subject. the KJV has Luke 1: 28 “And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

But to me, both interpretations adequately describes Mary and her earthly role as mother of the Christ child - she was both favored and full of grace (perhaps that’s why they picked that Greek word). I prefer the full of grace interpretation because grace is much more than an unmerited gift from God - it is actually something more tangible to me.

I attend a multi-denominational Bible study group on Wednesday mornings with about ten good men, 6 Baptists, 2 Presbyterians, 2 Catholics and 1 Latter-day Saints (maybe 2 now). We all share a thirst for understanding the more important things in life. When I spoke openly at one meeting about the Apocrypha, my 2 Catholic friends went home and came back the following week loaded for bear. I make better Catholics out of Catholics.

Also - I think you might find this a little amusing… one week the topic was the method of baptism. The Baptists contended (in love)for the immersion method, while the Catholic position was okay with the sprinkling. When the dust settled, they asked me what the Latter-day Saint position was on the subject. First I let them know I was raised Catholic, then converted to Later-day Saint, so I had both methods and was covered regardless of who was right.

I did see a noticeable wave of disbelief pass through the group when I told them when our early church leadership faced this question we just asked and a resurrected John the Baptist showed us how to do it. The Baptist Minister in our group was happy to hear it was by full immersion, and I did not get tarred and feathered for saying it.

I enjoy the dialog and hope to contribute without preaching.

Vinny. In regards to Mary’s sinless nature, we believe that she is human but didn’t sin. Some goes with oral tradation and therefore isn’t explicitly stated in scripture some is. Here is a link to grace being merited and not being merited. Hope this helps. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=282878

 

[VinnyDee78]

Vinny what does 2 Peter 2 1-22 mean to you. Especially 2 peter 2:21?

What this means to me is that when you come into the knowledge of something (in this case more importantly the ways of righteousness) and then turn from it, then it is likened to a dog returning to its vomit. Your point?

I have a knowledge, born of the Spirit, that Jesus is the Christ. Would you have me deny that experience if I told you that it was the words of the prophet Joseph Smith that lead me to that knowledge? God respected this man’s advice to me and confirmed to my very soul - yes Jesus is the Christ.

There is no new gospel in this - see James 1:5.

Back to Peter 2:21. Did that knowledge make me any less of a sinner - surely I hope so, but that’s why we have the process of repentance and take the sacrament weekly to keep us on that straight and narrow path.

The words I read from Joseph Smith prior to knowing for myself that Jesus is the Christ, the Promised Messiah of the Old Testament are as follows… "Search the scriptures–search the revelations which we publish, and ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to his glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for yourselves and not for another. You will not then be dependent on man for the knowledge of God; nor will there be any room for speculation. No; for when men receive their instruction from Him that made them, they know how He will save them. Therefore we say again, search the scriptures and learn what portion of them belongs to you and the people of [this generation].” [Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 11-12]

His words sunk deeply into my heart and this particular counsel set the stage of my inquiring from God, My question was not if the Mormon Church was true or if Joseph Smith was a prophet, but I wanted to know - was Jesus the Christ.

I received my answer with what I call the classical indication - a burning in the bosom (described in Latter-day scripture and perhaps no where else), but at that very moment, beyond doubt, I knew for myself that Jesus is the Christ. From that witness I will never turn.

The gospel found in the Book of Mormon is not different, it augments, amplifies, and testifies of true principles - restored principles of righteousness. The people on this continent were more open to revealed truth and therefore it is my personal favorite of all scripture - my faith in Christ increases with every reading. I have a personal witness and love for the value and inspiration, the doctrine and counsel of the Old and New Testaments - the Old Testament leading me to my witness of Christ. I have read them all verse by verse and sorted out their thousands of principles to test and measure and experiment with the word of God. And it is my witness to you that the Book of Revelations was NOT God’s last dissertation to man.

Why did they warn us of false prophets and false Christ’s… because there would be some… but they also indicated how you would know them when you came across them… that alone is a clear indication that there would be true prophets called to lead the people in righteousness. God is the same yesterday and today and forever - and prophets and apostles are with us today.

“And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” Num. 11: 29

 

[rinnie]

Okay Vinny, But what about the Apostles, Why would Jesus leave us the Apostles and tell us to stay with the teachings of the Catholic Church and then turn around and lead us away from the CC. Just asking no disrespect in any way. But does this make sense to you. He would leave us a Church, a Pope and then lead us away from this by a man named Joseph Smith who again had a self proclaimed revelation? I mean where is Authority, where is the Eucharist, how does one receive the Eucharist? And again God would by-pass the RCC the Church that he himself said is the living Christ. Show me how this can make sense to you. And how after all of these years could the RCC still be here. And why did God tell us that him and his Church are one, and yet then one day just up and leave all of the Apostles when he promised he would never do that. He promised them what my Father has given me I now give you. What happened then. I am just trying to figure out your reasoning. If I sound cruel or mean please understand thats not what I am trying to do. I am speaking from my heart.

 

[twb1621]

Okay Vinny, But what about the Apostles, Why would Jesus leave us the Apostles and tell us to stay with the teachings of the Catholic Church and then turn around and lead us away from the CC. Just asking no disrespect in any way. But does this make sense to you. He would leave us a Church, a Pope and then lead us away from this by a man named Joseph Smith who again had a self proclaimed revelation? I mean where is Authority, where is the Eucharist, how does one receive the Eucharist? And again God would by-pass the RCC the Church that he himself said is the living Christ. Show me how this can make sense to you. And how after all of these years could the RCC still be here. And why did God tell us that him and his Church are one, and yet then one day just up and leave all of the Apostles when he promised he would never do that. He promised them what my Father has given me I now give you. What happened then. I am just trying to figure out your reasoning. If I sound cruel or mean please understand thats not what I am trying to do. I am speaking from my heart.

I SUPPORT YOUR QUESTIONS HERE AND REFER TO POSTS #68 AND #69. This is a covenant made by Christ, Jesus, that no man can claim or show to be broken. “…many will come in my name…”

 

[VinnyDee78]

Vinny. In regards to Mary’s sinless nature, we believe that she is human but didn’t sin. Some goes with oral tradation and therefore isn’t explicitly stated in scripture some is. Here is a link to grace being merited and not being merited. Hope this helps. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=282878

I can’t see how that belief is justified. Human and Sinless is an oxymoron. Again, there was only one who was sinless. Mary grew in grace just as we have the same opportunity.

Sin to me equals choice against light. Our fallen nature or the natural man is continually sinful. the atonement gives us the opportunity to repent and stay the course. I hold it that Mary was not spared the very human experience that lead to her eventual salvation.

Thank you for the link - i will participate there as well.

Vinny

 

[VinnyDee78]

I SUPPORT YOUR QUESTIONS HERE AND REFER TO POSTS #68 AND #69. This is a covenant made by Christ, Jesus, that no man can claim or show to be broken. “…many will come in my name…”

Try this - Though you are baptised and obtain the Holy Spirit as your companion, the Spirit can not abide in unholy temples and will withdraw as you make choises contrary to the right way. When you ripen in iniquity, the Spirit withdraws completely and lets the consequences of your action take place… essentially, the covenant is broken, not by God but by man and you fall from grace. Is this not so?

So too did the church of God - as there was prophesied that there would be a falling away. (2 Thes. 2:3).

Restoration of all things is a pattern we will get to experience first hand… when we receive our body back again. Likewise the church has been restored and principles that have been lost are now revealed and continue to be so.

Respectfully - Vinny