KJV Bible and Catholics

[twb1621]

Just taking a short break from endless hours of formatting… I read the last two posts of your and am curious about something…

Tom has provided me with a wealth of information and here’s a synopsis and a question ala Vinny style - St. Jerome did a translation in 342-420 AD from the original Greek and Hebrew documents available to him into the Latin Vulgate, and more than a thousand years later they are adopted, or the text is somehow passed down through the centuries and adopted as the official version of the Catholic church.

Then you have this Protestant movement with King James versions followed by multiple (30+)translations for both Catholics and Protestant communities, all claiming theirs is the best, improved in some way, more understandable, keeping with the evolving English language or something along those lines… just a synopsis of the historical perspective.

I’m not worried about the inaccuracies, misinterpretations, deletions, watering down, etc. - that certainly did happen, but give me your thoughts on something…

Why are people of all faiths having such rich spiritual experience regardless of the version they use?

Hi Vinny;
Let me explain it this way; God is a very loving, merciful, forgiving and yet just Creator. Regardless of which Christian denomination a person belongs to, most faithful Christians know Him only through the teachings they received in the faith their families or people closest to them introduced them to. This means that if in fact they are faithful to God in the belief system they know and never knew any different, they have at the least followed Him in the way they believe is righteous.
In order for a person to be condemned to eternal hell, one of the most important factors of creating mortal sin is to know the act is such a sin or at least damning to their soul and willingly commit it regardless. Actually, that’s two. Would a just but merciful God allow a soul to be condemned for something a person did not know was wrong when they committed it? no, of course not. This is why a Catholic who has been offered the fullness of Christian teaching and all seven sacraments abandons his salvation by leaving the Catholic Church and joining another denomination. “…To those who are given more, more is expected of them.” Of course salvation is available to anyone who returns in sincerity. To think He would be less merciful to anyone is to not know Him and would be like saying there are people on earth more just and compassionate than God. Any faithful know God to be Merciful and Just.
Additionally, Christian faiths of all denominations do take the Catholic Bible as the foundation of their teachings although with some portions removed or some altered to a degree. The Majority of those who are faithful to Jesus through what they have been taught do not recognize this issues so they do remain Faithful to God in the light of what they have been taught. They do not hold responsibility for those changes. However they do not receive the fullness of Christianity as it was intended for them and those who are the teaching shepherds of those people according to the word of God through both the OT and NT will be held accountable.

 

[twb1621]

"…I ask them how they know something is true, and if they don’t just say ‘because the Bible says so,’ it generally leads to some conviction based on feeling, emotion or spiritual experience which verified to them that their course of action was well directed… faithful.

So what is it that captures our hearts and leads us to Christ in a variety of settings, worship, and leads us to believe we have found the way?

And if you have an answer for that question, then does that imply that any one church, authority, ordinance is of more efficacy than another?

Why does this happen? What can we deduce from it all? Please don’t tell me everyone else is deceived…

My experience in a nutshell… ; I was raised Catholic and attended all Catholic Schools but once I became an “adult” I drifted off in my own direction. At age 21 I went into law enforcement and worked in many specialized units of municipal and later federal agencies receiving appropriate training in each based on specialty which allowed for a very diversified background in training and life experiences. I was a highly respected professional investigator and agent. Later in my career I received pension and went private. I appeared at times as a guest investigative commentator for Fox network’s court TV in their NY facility. I trained investigators and many other professionals in specialized areas of interest through my own agency. But since reaching the legal age of all knowing enlightenment at 18 and onward I also developed my own “religious beliefs” based on my opinions in opposition to certain Catholic teachings and those I adopted based on my own conclusions, primary that popular philosophy that “…all that mattered to God was what was in your heart and you do the best you can, that it makes no difference what faith you belong to…”. I had authority and controlled many things, my ego proved it. that kind of thing. I was separated from the Catholic Church for over 25 years.

After several life events took place that led me to question not having God in my life but still having opinions adverse to the Catholic Church, I started looking at other Christian denominations and non-denominational forms of worship. What a hodgepodge of Bible versions and interpretations I found. I believed in Christ but that was as far as it went at that point and a Catholic priest told me I was “too analytical” and it was interfering with my faith. I was sure I was analytical which is one of the qualities that made me so successful in my profession, it was necessary to perform an accurate investigation, but I didn’t accept being “Too Analytical”. What I had to make sure of for myself is that if I was going to be involved in worship, I had to believe it to be the True Church, so I stepped back and researched Christianity with the tools of my profession both from recent days to its origin, then from it’s origin to today. I researched every point that came up in any form of question and that led directly to the Catholic Church which led me to use the Bible of the Catholic Church along with many other resources. I also realized how much my adoption of my own beliefs when I was younger was no different than those who founded other Christian faiths, which explained in part why there are so many. In studying scripture I began with the New Testament and went backward to the Old Testament. In doing it that way I was able to better put together the links in the prophecies of the coming of the messiah to the Life of Jesus. To simplify my direction to you, I analytically performed my own investigation over more than five years and without doubt proved to myself the Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ and that there are more than enough assertions by Christ himself to solidify that if you are to believe in Jesus, you have to believe in His Word and His word is a covenant that part of which asserted His Church would never fail even with the prophesized heresies and corruption that would infest her at times. That those who persevered in her would be saved by His word. In all this study and research I became ashamed of myself over those issues I disagreed with in the teachings of the Catholic Faith for so many years. I realized those teachings where instructed by Jesus to the apostles and carried on through the Sacred Tradition and Scripture. I also realized the biggest problem that causes some Catholics to be distant or weak in the practice of their faith is unintentional ignorance by way of a lack of study and knowledge in the Word of God. Some Catholics seem to think if they go through catholic school or CCD that once finished, they know what they are suppose to know, maybe all there is to know. They fail to realize it is ever person’s responsibility to seek knowledge of God independently, which in turn will lead to love, and devotion to Him. I continue to study and learn and can’t get enough knowledge of Him to get as close to Him as I wish to be. That is how much I have learned to love Him and devote myself to Him. I only regret all the years I lost not learning sooner.

 

[VinnyDee78]

I sincerely appreciate both of your posts above… but what of the other 300 million people in the various Christian denominations who came to slightly different conclusions…

I liked your responses but I was left with the feeling that you feel the Catholic church is right, people outside the Catholic faith have limited knowledge, but God is merciful and works with what we know - so you are leaving judgment to Him. (Are you sure you are not Mormon )

But I don’t feel like you answered this question - So what is it that captures our hearts and leads us to Christ in a variety of settings, worship, and leads us to believe we have found the way? If researching the word is all there is to it, then perhaps we would all be on the same page - but we’re obviously not.

I am starting to compare the D-R and KJV and will begin reviewing your other posts shortly.

I will be publishing the next book in my concordance series tonight, Principles with Promise: Especially for Catholics, it is the first in a series for those interested in understanding Catholic scripture from a slightly Protestant perspective, hopefully lessening the gap in understanding the additional books of the OT and the principles they contain.

Again, what is it about scriptures (no matter the version) that captures the hearts of so many millions of people and leads them to Christ outside the Catholic church and in a variety of settings, worship, and leads them to believe they have found the way?

 

[twb1621]

I sincerely appreciate both of your posts above… but what of the other 300 million people in the various Christian denominations who came to slightly different conclusions…

I liked your responses but I was left with the feeling that you feel the Catholic church is right, people outside the Catholic faith have limited knowledge, but God is merciful and works with what we know - so you are leaving judgment to Him. (Are you sure you are not Mormon )

No, steadfastly Catholic…
And your conclusion here is exactly correct. If they have not been given the fullness of Christianity through the Church founded by Jesus, they have been limited in what they were offered. Even more so, they have been limited to the experience of having and knowing that fullness. and He is merciful, compassionate and just… That however is not to say all Catholics have that awareness or have experienced this either. It is to the faithful that this awareness blooms within.

But I don’t feel like you answered this question - So what is it that captures our hearts and leads us to Christ in a variety of settings, worship, and leads us to believe we have found the way? If researching the word is all there is to it, then perhaps we would all be on the same page - but we’re obviously not.

I am starting to compare the D-R and KJV and will begin reviewing your other posts shortly.

I will be publishing the next book in my concordance series tonight, Principles with Promise: Especially for Catholics, it is the first in a series for those interested in understanding Catholic scripture from a slightly Protestant perspective, hopefully lessening the gap in understanding the additional books of the OT and the principles they contain.

I look forward to reading it. Truly.

Again, what is it about scriptures (no matter the version) that captures the hearts of so many millions of people and leads them to Christ outside the Catholic church and in a variety of settings, worship, and leads them to believe they have found the way?

What leads us to Him Is similar to what leads a person in the almost uncontrolable desire to know a parent they never knew, the desire to know that which is a part of us written in the hearts of every person. A subconcious awareness of what is required to complete ourselves, our Father. Once we have begun to learn just how much our Father loves us, how important we are to Him and all He is willing to do to have us join Him, it’s all the faithful can do to return that love.

 

[VinnyDee78]

Part I of II…

Good answer Tom and with a great sense of humor. My daughter asked me why I was laughing at my computer I said I found someone with a good come back.

Now - on the more serious side… the reason I said ‘Are you sure you are not a Mormon,” is because that selfsame paragraph could have easily described a synopsis of my sentiments as well. In fact your summary answer could have likewise been written by this heretic with slightly different adjectives and verbs (also with a twist of KJV thrown in).

So here’s something I haven’t really experienced with my Catholic buddies before. I feel like I am looking at a reflection in the mirror - one saying this is the true church and the other reflecting back (almost) and saying the same thing. Popcorn anyone? So what’s up with that… stay tuned…

Let me try to answer the question I asked in a way I feel most comfortable with… I agree we lived in the presence of our Father before the world was (ooops… you said we never knew Him, but I say we did) and that we long to be back with him at journey’s end (agreed)… that we are His children as not only desire to know him but to become like Him. To become like Him, we have to know him and to know Him, we need to study, search, ponder, pray, ask, receive His word, partake of his ordinances, the atonement, and obediently keep his Commandments – then his grace takes care of the rest (all we can not do for ourselves).

The true question then is not what version most correctly typifies his word, because that could be written in ancient Swahili for all I know, the real question is how is it that so many people of different persuasion feel they have the edge and think similarly that everyone is surely less knowledgeable, missing out and yada, yada, yada… same story different people.

Here’s my take. Belief in and practice of true principles yields a response from heaven. It is the natural order of things. I you live a particular principle there is a promise associated with it. I believe the D-R will bear that out as many other scriptural interpretations of the Bible on the market. So if an evangelical, Catholic, Protestant, Latter-day Saint experiences some good thing as a result of their obedience (our only true gift to God), then they become cemented in the faith they have chosen. The greater the experience practicing those principles the more grounded they become and their faith grows into knowledge.

 

[VinnyDee78]

Part II of III (sorry one more story)

If you are telling me that your experiences which are of a supernal nature occur in the privacy of your own home, then what need is there of a church building? If you are experiencing these same types of events while hungering and thirsting after knowledge studying the scriptures, then what need do you have of any external program? If you only experience anything positive in your local church building, then why do you suppose that to be true?

What I am trying to say is that as we both grow in light and knowledge through the grace of God, this begs the question… how does one know their journey is the higher road without comparing personal notes and experiences. And if we could even do that, who would believe what the other person related to them was true…

It’s a hard thing to prove or transfer to another without the complete and utter companionship of the Holy Ghost who can pass that type of verifiable knowledge (I think you will agree with this). So if I know the Spirit and you know the Spirit, the Spirit is the only true venue to pass anything of real worth to the human soul.… (agreed?)

I learned a few important lessons I’d like to share with you and my Catholic friends…

Once I was on the road (Navy deployment) with a good Christian friend and copilot of mine. We called him Meatball Myers (he became a minister after his Navy life I heard). We were discussing the Latter-day Saint gospel and church one evening in our BOQ rooms… the Spirit was strong and I asked him if he recognized the Spirit when he felt it. He said yes, I feel it right now and our discussion continued…. If I could turn back the clock of time, I would have highlighted we weren’t talking about the Catholic church or the Baptist church or some other gospel… we were talking about the Church of Jesus Christ. I learned that others have access to the Holy Ghost and do recognize it when truth is being discussed.

On another occasion, I met with a friend of mine that told me of his recent conversion to the Pentecostal church. As he related the sequence of events to me that at first he was uncomfortable with the scene, he kept going back until one day they popped him on the head and he lost bodily control… he was converted in his mind having experienced this supernal event. After listening to him for some time, I told him the Holy Ghost is the feeling of peace and comfort, and that it never feels uncomfortable unless it is warning you (to flee or avoid something bad, even a choice you may be contemplating or something out of line you’ve said). He was my best man and we used to think a lot alike – not any more. After I said that he hasn’t talked to me again.

One more lesson and I will be quiet.

 

[VinnyDee78]

Part III of III (then I will be quiet)

Third lesson was with a Catholic friend of mine I used to commute to the Pentagon with for three years. His daughter was in a serious car accident and had a serious issue with her eye over the course of several months that could have lead to severe eye and hemorrhaging issues – possibly death. Lew told me that his daughter received a healing blessing from their priest and that when they went in for the pre-op checkup the issue had completely resolved itself.

As I inquired of the Lord – what’s up with that? I thought we had the Priesthood, were the true church, etc… the answer I received back was clearly one of ‘faith.’ It was her faith (preeminent) and the faith of all those who were involved in her life that brought about this great miracle… then I was reminded (by that selfsame Spirit) that I had put her name on the prayer roles of our temple in Washington DC where faithful Latter-day Saints serve. Again, this story leads me to believe that correct principles yield the correspondent promise… without faith there could be no miracle. Do you get answers like that? Is there something you feel you’ve done or had to experience within the Catholic doctrine to bring about such testimonies and experiences like this.

FYI – Latter-day Saints consider other stories too sacred to discuss (especially in public forums, but let me assure you that they are as real and as important in their own special ways as these few instances are… continually revealing something more about God and His ways, and restoring our knowledge of that special relationship we had with Him, all the while changing us to abide His presence someday, so that we can indeed live with Him again as see Him, know Him as he really is.

This is why we give glory to God through obedience and He gives us glory (truth, knowledge, intelligence, light) through grace.

So where does that leave us… again, how do you know when you know and how do you know it is more than your Protestant friend?

My deepest respect for your thoughts… everyone else ran for the hills it appears.

Just Vinny

 

[twb1621]

Part I of II…

Good answer Tom and with a great sense of humor. My daughter asked me why I was laughing at my computer I said I found someone with a good come back.

Now - on the more serious side… the reason I said ‘Are you sure you are not a Mormon,” is because that selfsame paragraph could have easily described a synopsis of my sentiments as well. In fact your summary answer could have likewise been written by this heretic with slightly different adjectives and verbs (also with a twist of KJV thrown in).

So here’s something I haven’t really experienced with my Catholic buddies before. I feel like I am looking at a reflection in the mirror - one saying this is the true church and the other reflecting back (almost) and saying the same thing. Popcorn anyone? So what’s up with that… stay tuned…

Let me try to answer the question I asked in a way I feel most comfortable with… I agree we lived in the presence of our Father before the world was (ooops… you said we never knew Him, but I say we did) actually I said similar to that kind of drive. although we do not conciously recall knowing Him, going by the word of God in the OT we did.
and that we long to be back with him at journey’s end (agreed)… that we are His children as not only desire to know him but to become like Him. To become like Him, we have to know him and to know Him, we need to study, search, ponder, pray, ask, receive His word, partake of his ordinances, the atonement, and obediently keep his Commandments – then his grace takes care of the rest (all we can not do for ourselves). Good to go…

The true question then is not what version most correctly typifies his word, because that could be written in ancient Swahili for all I know, the real question is how is it that so many people of different persuasion feel they have the edge and think similarly that everyone is surely less knowledgeable, missing out and yada, yada, yada… same story different people. because each person can only receive that amount of grace they are open to. With that said, Jesus takes all circumstances for each of us into account.

Here’s my take. Belief in and practice of true principles yields a response from heaven. It is the natural order of things. I you live a particular principle there is a promise associated with it. I believe the D-R will bear that out as many other scriptural interpretations of the Bible on the market. So if an evangelical, Catholic, Protestant, Latter-day Saint experiences some good thing as a result of their obedience (our only true gift to God), then they become cemented in the faith they have chosen. The greater the experience practicing those principles the more grounded they become and their faith grows into knowledge. This cannot be disputed considering a person who has no knowledge at all of the teachings of Jesus our savior can reach salvation if that person lives by the principals instilled by God in our hearts. It is recognized that only the Catholic Faith has the availability of all seven sacrements which gives additional grace and strengthens us in the fight against a weakened faith and inturn falling to sin. Taking it a step further, as every Christian faith does follow most (not all) of the basic teachings learned from the original Catholic Doctrines, those they recieve are a foundation toward that relationship with God. I’ll put it like this; within the fullness of the Catholic faith, a faithful person who perseveres in His Church will have all that the salvation of Jesus described in the gospel provides. A person who is outside of the Catholic faith but only knows the faith he or she has been taught still has received the Basics of Catholicism (I say Catholicism because most realize that is where the Bible came from) and if he remains Faithful to God may reach salvation although more may be required of that person before entering the Kingdom. Briefly (or not) if one accepts the existance of a purgatory, they are actually accepting the existance of a place and say an amount of time for the purging of or cleansing of their soul prior to acceptance in heaven. They are promised heaven but some will have more or less time in such a place with all their life circumstances considered. It must be understood that Jesus would not have been so specific when it comes to remaining in His Church being one in body if it didn’t matter which faith a person lives by. He spelled it all out for us what to be cautious of and the things that would occur but was sure to declaire that those who persevered would be those to have salvation above all else.

 

[twb1621]

Part II of III (sorry one more story)

If you are telling me that your experiences which are of a supernal nature occur in the privacy of your own home, then what need is there of a church building? If you are experiencing these same types of events while hungering and thirsting after knowledge studying the scriptures, then what need do you have of any external program? If you only experience anything positive in your local church building, then why do you suppose that to be true? its not about the church building although it keeps us warmer and dryer in bad weather… the church is the mass of people and as He said “where two or more are gathered…” we truly are in a war with satan that is getting more treacherous as time goes on and our Lord directed us more than once that the strength in our prayers is stronger in numbers. Along with that idea is the fact that people are stronger and more secure when they are among others who support their beliefs. We recieve Favor from God by gathering to worship Him. Being in that position allows for receiving more grace which brings us closer to our Lord and stronger in fighting sin.

What I am trying to say is that as we both grow in light and knowledge through the grace of God, this begs the question… how does one know their journey is the higher road without comparing personal notes and experiences. And if we could even do that, who would believe what the other person related to them was true…
There is no desire to do that. A person who has found that grace filled joining with the Holy Spirit has no desire to compare with anyone. They are secure in their relationship with God and need not compare with anyone because they know they are a child of God and there is nothing else to consider, you are or you are not. Me for instance, as a faithful Catholic, I know that I have offered to me all that is offered for my salvation. I know based on my search and discoveries that much is missing from the other denominations. My relationship came to me when I turned my life, past and future over to Him and Gave Trust in Him. If I told you how deeply that relationship goes you might think I’m weird but we all are presented with that which we can handle and no more.

It’s a hard thing to prove or transfer to another without the complete and utter companionship of the Holy Ghost who can pass that type of verifiable knowledge (I think you will agree with this). So if I know the Spirit and you know the Spirit, the Spirit is the only true venue to pass anything of real worth to the human soul.… (agreed?)
As I see it, the Spirit is the provider of Grace but there are many means He by which he delivers that grace. The most powerful being through the sacrements especially the Eucharist. I learned a few important lessons I’d like to share with you and my Catholic friends…

Once I was on the road (Navy deployment) with a good Christian friend and copilot of mine. We called him Meatball Myers (he became a minister after his Navy life I heard). We were discussing the Latter-day Saint gospel and church one evening in our BOQ rooms… the Spirit was strong and I asked him if he recognized the Spirit when he felt it. He said yes, I feel it right now and our discussion continued…. If I could turn back the clock of time, I would have highlighted we weren’t talking about the Catholic church or the Baptist church or some other gospel… we were talking about the Church of Jesus Christ. I learned that others have access to the Holy Ghost and do recognize it when truth is being discussed.
Absolutely, and faithful joined together in conversation supportive of the will of God is prayer no differently than those prayers offered by recitation.

On another occasion, I met with a friend of mine that told me of his recent conversion to the Pentecostal church. As he related the sequence of events to me that at first he was uncomfortable with the scene, he kept going back until one day they popped him on the head and he lost bodily control… he was converted in his mind having experienced this supernal event. After listening to him for some time, I told him the Holy Ghost is the feeling of peace and comfort, and that it never feels uncomfortable unless it is warning you (to flee or avoid something bad, even a choice you may be contemplating or something out of line you’ve said). He was my best man and we used to think a lot alike – not any more. After I said that he hasn’t talked to me again.
I would not judge a person who claims a supernatural revolation nor would I accept it as such. That is best left between the person and God. Thats just how I look at it.One more lesson and I will be quiet.

 

[twb1621]

Part III of III (then I will be quiet)

Third lesson was with a Catholic friend of mine I used to commute to the Pentagon with for three years. His daughter was in a serious car accident and had a serious issue with her eye over the course of several months that could have lead to severe eye and hemorrhaging issues – possibly death. Lew told me that his daughter received a healing blessing from their priest and that when they went in for the pre-op checkup the issue had completely resolved itself.

As I inquired of the Lord – what’s up with that? I thought we had the Priesthood, were the true church, etc… the answer I received back was clearly one of ‘faith.’ It was her faith (preeminent) and the faith of all those who were involved in her life that brought about this great miracle… then I was reminded (by that selfsame Spirit) that I had put her name on the prayer roles of our temple in Washington DC where faithful Latter-day Saints serve. Again, this story leads me to believe that correct principles yield the correspondent promise… without faith there could be no miracle. Do you get answers like that? Is there something you feel you’ve done or had to experience within the Catholic doctrine to bring about such testimonies and experiences like this. My Brother in Christ, let me tell you that I without doubt have been blessed and given many answers. I am confident my prayers are answered, and when the answer is not as I may have asked, I can accept it and still know they were answered. I would never try to judge whether the prayers answered were yours, mine, your church, or my church, because I know that God hears us all. I pray for you just as I hope to be in your prayers. That God has given me verification of His love for me is a miracle for the life that I had before seeking Him.
FYI – Latter-day Saints consider other stories too sacred to discuss (especially in public forums, but let me assure you that they are as real and as important in their own special ways as these few instances are… continually revealing something more about God and His ways, and restoring our knowledge of that special relationship we had with Him, all the while changing us to abide His presence someday, so that we can indeed live with Him again as see Him, know Him as he really is.

This is why we give glory to God through obedience and He gives us glory (truth, knowledge, intelligence, light) through grace.

So where does that leave us… again, how do you know when you know and how do you know it is more than your Protestant friend?
From my heart I tell you this, that all Christians will , are coming together, being drawn together in the most subtle way initially but growing more intently as time continues. I believe we are in a time that is to distinguish the truly faithful from the hypocrites and non-believers and as that distinction is made more and more faithful will join and the Christian faiths will in time be one. I don’t know if I will be around, but I know to Him I belong and I will never distance myself from Him again. And that makes me feel awesome, ready to fight the good fight daily … :nunchuk:
I do have one question, are you gonna make me have to pay for this book? Just kidding…

My deepest respect for your thoughts… everyone else ran for the hills it appears.:extrahappy:
No Problem…
Just Vinny

 

[twb1621]

Vinny,
One other thing I wanted to mention. Have you ever considered how blessed a person must be to receive the stigmata, the wounds of Christ. Like Saint Francis or Padre Peo or several others? Can you imagine being so close to Him that He shares with you what He went through and suffered for you and I and everyone? Or how the bodies of so many saints have been found after centuries to be free of degradation and by merely touching the crypt of one many have been healed of terminal or permanent illnesses? The apparitions of the Blessed Mother to people including children who didn’t even know who she was until their message was told to the authorities? All in the love of God for us. Often when I see our carelessness with this world and to His creations that He left us custodians of and the lack of compassion toward the needy and unfortuate and all the greed and materialism that supercedes in our priorities in life I feel such a deep awareness and heaviness in my heart of the hurt and disappointment that must be so painful to Him. That is how much love and devotion I have for our Lord. We are in a critical time. Perhaps the most critical trial of all. A time to pray more intently than ever before.

 

[VinnyDee78]

Part I of II (I promise)

Thank you Tom for your thoughtful replies to my lengthy dissertations above and for taking your time through the holiday season to carry the baton. We both enjoy the topic I can see that. Before I get started on my Sunday School lesson this morning (I teach about 70 adults) out of the Book of Mormon (my personal favorite of all our scriptures), I wanted to say a few things…

The experiences related above were not meant to judge people or their actions but help me understand better the operations of a loving God. I spoke of the Holy Ghost and its operations I have experienced which were different than that of my fellow man, but I did honestly weigh theirs with mine in as an objective manner as possible (both scripturally, intelligent reason and experientially) – I don’t see how it can be done any other way… we are to judge good and evil and everything in between.

My entire Biblical life (when I first discovered answers through the scriptures) has been spent in cataloguing and experimenting with the principles and commandments that God governs and is self governed by in this earth experience. I weigh what I see with my senses and reason that with what I have been taught and/or know, have faith in, or believe to be true. Each has taught me something more of God’s plan and endless bounty of mercy, compassion and workings of the Spirit. Through the grace of God, I have been blessed according to that which I was able to receive and grow (hopefully) from grace to grace similarly to our great exemplar.

Your synopsis of each experience was appreciated and I felt I could relate and agree on most of your points, you are a good man. I agree that God is drawing us neigh unto him in the unity of the faith one small step at a time… However the prevailing thought that the ‘unity of the faith’ would result in widespread Catholicism is not far from our position that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored and is the true church that will be the organization that will be accepted at the time of his return – we believe that the interpretation in Daniel 2 is that fulfillment – a stone cut out that eventually fills the whole mountain. In some way, the pure in heart (from all denominations) that have trod the press will become that Zion people.

As far the Eucharist, I will need to research that some more to better understand what it is, and what that introduces into my feeble minded attempt to figure things out… the never ending story. As far as the supernatural, spiritual events that are well documented… I would have to weigh them in typical Vinny fashion – it’s really simple, if the event leads me to believe in Christ, then there is a good chance it is good and comes from God. On the other hand – if it leads me to believe in other things as the source of information other than God or leads me from Christ to believe in something else, then I would be inclined to doubt its divine origin.

I learned a very important lesson a number of years ago… a family member close to me went to a palm reader for her ‘reading.’ During the reading the person told them that she was not worried about her, she had a bright future, but she was worried about her friend instead. Three months later her friend died of cancer that had not been diagnosed at that time. That simple act in my opinion leads my friend to believe in this person’s incredible insight or prophecy and less in inspiration gained through scripture and prayer. That same person does not believe in modern day prophets who might actually receive revelation from God in building His kingdom.

 

[VinnyDee78]

Part II of II (hopefully they won’t kick us off for our lengthy dialog):tsktsk:

I don’t believe you can have it both ways, but the point of this story is, that when I reasoned it with scripture, and inquired – how can someone really know these things, the answer back was likewise simple… there is a counterfeit in all things. Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, etc. is real and has the ability to counterfeit just about everything (I don’t have a list here – been focused on the righteous principles not the dark side of things).

Regarding your later post, I don’t see the point in having a physical stigmata imprinted on my hands and feet as much as I can the spiritual confirmation / knowledge that the atonement did indeed take place and imprinted on my heart (and that knowledge is imprinted on my heart). I believe in heavenly messengers from the presence of God interacting continually with us mere mortals… our entire faith is based on those types of events. We simply say, you can know for yourself if you ask in faith believing you will receive.

Can you imagine the sublime humility of a fourteen year old boy inquiring of God which church he should join and the opening of the heavens to answer? Can you imagine being blessed with a knowledge of things past, present as they really are, and things to come? Can you imagine a stigmata of the heart that replaces faith with knowledge and you know for yourself and not from another that Jesus is the Christ and that he did indeed atone for our sins just as it says in the scriptures? Can you imagine… if you can imagine any of these things, then you may very well come short of imagining what He has in store for you as you embrace His restored gospel, especially if you think you have arrived at your final destination already. This is not meant to be one-upsmanship but an open invitation to all towards the eternal possibilities when we are ready and able to receive them. God will not force us in any measure as free will is most important to Him – Christ died so we might live according to our choices to do so.

In line with this discussion, I have found the following Latter-day Saint scripture to be true and have faith in its promise.

“For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” D&C 76:5-10

As well as this - “But speaking the truth in love, [we] may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ” Eph. 4: 15

In all sincerity - Vinny

 

[twb1621]

Part I of II (I promise)

Thank you Tom for your thoughtful replies to my lengthy dissertations above and for taking your time through the holiday season to carry the baton. We both enjoy the topic I can see that. Before I get started on my Sunday School lesson this morning (I teach about 70 adults) out of the Book of Mormon (my personal favorite of all our scriptures), I wanted to say a few things…

The experiences related above were not meant to judge people or their actions but help me understand better the operations of a loving God. I spoke of the Holy Ghost and its operations I have experienced which were different than that of my fellow man, but I did honestly weigh theirs with mine in as an objective manner as possible (both scripturally, intelligent reason and experientially) – I don’t see how it can be done any other way… we are to judge good and evil and everything in between. I realize this of you and I had no reason to think otherwise than what you said here. Perhaps it was the way I answered that led you to think this explanation was needed, but it is not. Thank you.

My entire Biblical life (when I first discovered answers through the scriptures) has been spent in cataloging and experimenting with the principles and commandments that God governs and is self governed by in this earth experience. I weigh what I see with my senses and reason that with what I have been taught and/or know, have faith in, or believe to be true. Each has taught me something more of God’s plan and endless bounty of mercy, compassion and workings of the Spirit. Through the grace of God, I have been blessed according to that which I was able to receive and grow (hopefully) from grace to grace similarly to our great exemplar. I understand, the drive to research. You know I have done so and continue to in my quest as well. In doing what you are doing it would be disastrous not to. My responses were based on the average person, not those attempting to bring forth the most accurate understanding as possible to others.

Your synopsis of each experience was appreciated and I felt I could relate and agree on most of your points, you are a good man. I agree that God is drawing us neigh unto him in the unity of the faith one small step at a time… However the prevailing thought that the ‘unity of the faith’ would result in widespread Catholicism is not far from our position that the Church of Jesus Christ has been restored and is the true church that will be the organization that will be accepted at the time of his return – we believe that the interpretation in Daniel 2 is that fulfillment – a stone cut out that eventually fills the whole mountain. In some way, the pure in heart (from all denominations) that have trod the press will become that Zion people. understood.

As far the Eucharist, I will need to research that some more to better understand what it is, and what that introduces into my feeble minded attempt to figure things out… the never ending story. As far as the supernatural, spiritual events that are well documented… I would have to weigh them in typical Vinny fashion – it’s really simple, if the event leads me to believe in Christ, then there is a good chance it is good and comes from God. On the other hand – if it leads me to believe in other things as the source of information other than God or leads me from Christ to believe in something else, then I would be inclined to doubt its divine origin.In all honesty, I would be happy when the time comes to help you gather the information to make that determination and I urge you to do so when you are able. I believe you will be amazed and enlightened even more by Gods magnificence. I bet you even write another book you hadn’t considered before.

I learned a very important lesson a number of years ago… a family member close to me went to a palm reader for her ‘reading.’ During the reading the person told them that she was not worried about her, she had a bright future, but she was worried about her friend instead. Three months later her friend died of cancer that had not been diagnosed at that time. That simple act in my opinion leads my friend to believe in this person’s incredible insight or prophecy and less in inspiration gained through scripture and prayer. That same person does not believe in modern day prophets who might actually receive revelation from God in building His kingdom.

Unfortunately, Vinny, this is a dangerous practice that can easily be a means for Satan to work his way into the confidence of a person by leading them to think someone has such insight. We always should remember the satan uses those weaknesses of ours he sees as the best avenue to lead us away from God. As satan is the father of lies and death, and recognizing someone open to the idea of fortune telling, its not difficult to see how this could happen. Have you ever heard of a fortune teller say someone is going to go to heaven for whatever reasons? Yet if it were a gift of God or a way for Him to relay a message, it certainly is possible that the message would be of enlightenment. I would pray that she not continue going to a person of this sort.

 

[twb1621]

Part II of II (hopefully they won’t kick us off for our lengthy dialog):tsktsk:

I don’t believe you can have it both ways, but the point of this story is, that when I reasoned it with scripture, and inquired – how can someone really know these things, the answer back was likewise simple… there is a counterfeit in all things. Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, etc. is real and has the ability to counterfeit just about everything (I don’t have a list here – been focused on the righteous principles not the dark side of things).

I should have read further, you are already on the same page as I.

Regarding your later post, I don’t see the point in having a physical stigmata imprinted on my hands and feet as much as I can the spiritual confirmation / knowledge that the atonement did indeed take place and imprinted on my heart (and that knowledge is imprinted on my heart). I believe in heavenly messengers from the presence of God interacting continually with us mere mortals… our entire faith is based on those types of events. We simply say, you can know for yourself if you ask in faith believing you will receive. In scripture we know that many miracles have been performed by our Lord for the soul purpose of awakening others to the consciousness of God. That is the purpose of events such as the stigmata. Miracles that deeply create the awareness of Him to those who are distant or unaware of Him in the deeper sense. In comparing the lives of these people it is easy to see that they without doubt lived deeply within the life of Christ so it is obvious there is absolutely no demonic benefit. Therefore nothing taints the physical expression of the stigmata and those who received it are believed to be extremely Holy and in the company of our Lord in heaven.

Can you imagine the sublime humility of a fourteen year old boy inquiring of God which church he should join and the opening of the heavens to answer? Can you imagine being blessed with a knowledge of things past, present as they really are, and things to come? Can you imagine a stigmata of the heart that replaces faith with knowledge and you know for yourself and not from another that Jesus is the Christ and that he did indeed atone for our sins just as it says in the scriptures? Can you imagine… if you can imagine any of these things, then you may very well come short of imagining what He has in store for you as you embrace His restored gospel, especially if you think you have arrived at your final destination already. This is not meant to be one-upsmanship but an open invitation to all towards the eternal possibilities when we are ready and able to receive them. God will not force us in any measure as free will is most important to Him – Christ died so we might live according to our choices to do so.
At this point I am on my way to Chruch but will answer when I get back so hang in there…

In line with this discussion, I have found the following Latter-day Saint scripture to be true and have faith in its promise.

“For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” D&C 76:5-10

As well as this - “But speaking the truth in love, [we] may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ” Eph. 4: 15

In all sincerity - Vinny

 

[twb1621]

Part II of II
Ok I’m back to continue…
from Vinny;
"Can you imagine the sublime humility of a fourteen year old boy inquiring of God which church he should join and the opening of the heavens to answer? Can you imagine being blessed with a knowledge of things past, present as they really are, and things to come? Can you imagine a stigmata of the heart that replaces faith with knowledge and you know for yourself and not from another that Jesus is the Christ and that he did indeed atone for our sins just as it says in the scriptures? Can you imagine… if you can imagine any of these things, then you may very well come short of imagining what He has in store for you as you embrace His restored gospel, especially if you think you have arrived at your final destination already. This is not meant to be one-upsmanship but an open invitation to all towards the eternal possibilities when we are ready and able to receive them. God will not force us in any measure as free will is most important to Him – Christ died so we might live according to our choices to do so.Much of what you and I believe in when it comes to the Gospel is the same as it comes from the same origin. Although I am sure I am where I am suppose to be, I will not have reached my true destination until I am face to face with my Savior. All that occurs before that is trial and learning. But when I come to meet someone like you I cherish the time we share and all that I learn. Just because I am where I know I should be and you are assured yourself, we both learn from each other. When I was on my way to church I prayed for you and for guidance for both. I could go on with all the reasons you should look into the Catholic Church as it really is but I know you are gifted with the Spirit and you are serving the mission God has selected for you and where He wants you at this time. Just as I am serving as He desires me to. I promise I will try to recruit you when it is appropriate but for now you are doing His will as a diplomat.

In line with this discussion, I have found the following Latter-day Saint scripture to be true and have faith in its promise.

“For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end.
Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” D&C 76:5-10

As well as this - “But speaking the truth in love, [we] may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ” Eph. 4: 15
why does your version have “even” before Christ, did you notice that difference? Oh, never mind, there I go again…
In all sincerity - Vinny

 

[VinnyDee78]

Hey - I don’t know what you’re talking about… my KJV and D-R versions both have ‘even.’ or was that just to get me back into the D-R

I really enjoyed your feedback on the above posts. I share your thoughts on many of the important matters we have discussed… and I promise I will review your earlier posts - I was swamped with my self imposed deadlines at the time while getting use to this site and the wealth of information available here.

To be a good Diplomat, one needs to know both sides of the fence. You have been and continue to be a great source for me, experientially and knowledge wise. When we are doing what we know the Lord has in mind for us (as in doing his will), we can exercise greater faith in the exercise of that will - and faith precedes the miracle.

Keep the dialog going - its a highlight of my day!

 

[VinnyDee78]

I almost forgot - I published the next book in my series today…

Principles with Promise: Especially for Catholics

I was up at 4 AM tightening the intro up and thanks to this forum, have the index in fine shape and a much greater appreciation for the Catholic Bible (which I now own). I will send you the final version of the index if you are interested as I did make some changes to it.

 

[twb1621]

Hey - I don’t know what you’re talking about… my KJV and D-R versions both have ‘even.’ or was that just to get me back into the D-R

I really enjoyed your feedback on the above posts. I share your thoughts on many of the important matters we have discussed… and I promise I will review your earlier posts - I was swamped with my self imposed deadlines at the time while getting use to this site and the wealth of information available here.

To be a good Diplomat, one needs to know both sides of the fence. You have been and continue to be a great source for me, experientially and knowledge wise. When we are doing what we know the Lord has in mind for us (as in doing his will), we can exercise greater faith in the exercise of that will - and faith precedes the miracle.

Keep the dialog going - its a highlight of my day!

well said Vinny… I’m not going anywhere…

 

[twb1621]

I almost forgot - I published the next book in my series today…

Principles with Promise: Especially for Catholics

I was up at 4 AM tightening the intro up and thanks to this forum, have the index in fine shape and a much greater appreciation for the Catholic Bible (which I now own). I will send you the final version of the index if you are interested as I did make some changes to it.

I would appriciate that, yes. How do you publish it in the middle of the night though?