KJV made the English Language

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A while ago I watched a whole documentary on the KJV’s effects on the English language (on the History Channel of course) and my question is what effects, if any, did the Douai-Rheims have on the English language? Did it, having been published several years before, have any effects on the standardization English language (the choosing of which words, both being perfectly good English at the time, but both being particular to a certain region)? I’m guessing no, because it was revised several times (including to make it closer to the KJV), however if it did or you have a link can you add it? Also, I know it was consulted in the writing of the KJV - is their any comparison between the original first edition copies of both if the KJV and the Douai to see if it [the KJV] borrowed (for the most part) the spellings used in the Douai?

Catholig
 
A while ago I watched a whole documentary on the KJV’s effects on the English language (on the History Channel of course) and my question is what effects, if any, did the Douai-Rheims have on the English language? Did it, having been published several years before, have any effects on the standardization English language (the choosing of which words, both being perfectly good English at the time, but both being particular to a certain region)? I’m guessing no, because it was revised several times (including to make it closer to the KJV), however if it did or you have a link can you add it? Also, I know it was consulted in the writing of the KJV - is their any comparison between the original first edition copies of both if the KJV and the Douai to see if it [the KJV] borrowed (for the most part) the spellings used in the Douai?

Catholig
The original KJV borrowed from the Douay-Rheims, and the revisions of the Douay-Rheims borrowed from the revisions of the KJV. So both influenced the development of the English language.
 
A while ago I watched a whole documentary on the KJV’s effects on the English language (on the History Channel of course) and my question is what effects, if any, did the Douai-Rheims have on the English language? Did it, having been published several years before, have any effects on the standardization English language (the choosing of which words, both being perfectly good English at the time, but both being particular to a certain region)? I’m guessing no, because it was revised several times (including to make it closer to the KJV), however if it did or you have a link can you add it? Also, I know it was consulted in the writing of the KJV - is their any comparison between the original first edition copies of both if the KJV and the Douai to see if it [the KJV] borrowed (for the most part) the spellings used in the Douai?

Catholig
Allow me to quote from the Introduction to the Revised Standard Version:

"Tyndale’s work became the foundation of subsequent English versions, notably those of Coverdale, 1535; Thomas Matthew (probably a pseudonym for John Rogers), 1537; the Great Bible, 1539; the Geneva Bible, 1560; and the Bishops’ Bible, 1568. In 1582, a translation of the New Testament, made from the Latin Vulgate by Roman Catholic scholars, was published at Rheims.

"The translators who made the King James Version took into account all of these preceding versions; and comparison shows that it owes something to each of them. It kept felicitous phrases and apt expressions, from whatever source, which had stood the test of public usage. It owed most, especially in the New Testament, to Tyndale.

"The King James Version had to compete with the Geneva Bible in popular use; but in the end it prevailed, and for more than two and a half centuries no other authorized translation of the Bible into English was made. The King James Version became the ‘Authorized Version’ of the English-speaking peoples.

“The King James Version has with good reason been termed ‘the noblest monument of English prose.’ Its revisers in 1881 expressed admiration for ‘its simplicity, its dignity, its power, its happy turns of expression, the music of it cadences, and the felicities of its rhythm.’ It entered, as no other book has, into the making of the personal character and the public institutions of the English-speaking peoples. We owe to it an incalculable debt.”

Of course, this merely show the influence of the KJV on the English language. Very likely, the Douay-Rheims had a lesser influence, simply because it wasn’t as widely used as was the KJV. Why? Recall, the Catholic liturgy was in LATIN, not the vernacular, as were almost all the Protestant services. Also, private reading of the Bible among Catholics did not take hold then as it has in more recent times. Still, the KJV made sufficient inroads into the language that Bishop Challoner revisions more often then not approximated to the KJV. But this was more a matter of style. I would wager that where the KJV translators had recourse to the D-R, it was because the interpretation afforded by the use of the Vulgate shed light on some more obscure Hebrew/Greek texts.

Look at it this way - the NAB will hardly ever make an impact on the English language, even that spoken by us Catholics!

Manfred
 
I have seen the same claims made for Chaucer, the Medieval English merchants and Shakespeare. In some ways it could be said of the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans, and that would be true, too. Probably all are true. English is a mixture of many things, and (as opposed to, say, French) no serious effort has been made to truly standardize it. That’s why English is extremely expressive and also extremely difficult for others to learn well. It has at least three “modes” of expression, and those who know it well slip from one to another and back again without thinking about it. The “Mode” used depends on who is talking and what they’re talking about. Some things (Kipling’s “Harp Song of the Dane Women” comes to mind) are virtually impossible to translate into some other languages because the “mode” of expression (Anglo-Saxon with a touch of Scandinavian-perfectly comprehensible to modern native English speakers.) cannot be duplicated or even approximated in the others.

The writers of the KJV did not “invent” a whole new language, any more than Shakespeare or Chaucer did. They took what they found and worked it into a kind of “sub-mode” they thought particularly expressive. Modern English speakers utilize elements of all of them, but the language has also moved on. We do not speak KJV English or Rheims-Douay English or Elizabethan English. We really don’t even speak 19th Century shopkeeper-class English, though it is intelligible to us and much closer to what we now speak than is KJV English.

People tend to adopt words and phrases and constructions that have impressed them as expressive. Someday, someone will likely say that Ernest Hemingway invented modern English. Some will say William Randolph Hearst. And, to an extent, they will be right in saying either thing.
 
I have seen the same claims made for Chaucer, the Medieval English merchants and Shakespeare. In some ways it could be said of the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans, and that would be true, too. Probably all are true. English is a mixture of many things, and (as opposed to, say, French) no serious effort has been made to truly standardize it. That’s why English is extremely expressive and also extremely difficult for others to learn well. It has at least three “modes” of expression, and those who know it well slip from one to another and back again without thinking about it. The “Mode” used depends on who is talking and what they’re talking about. Some things (Kipling’s “Harp Song of the Dane Women” comes to mind) are virtually impossible to translate into some other languages because the “mode” of expression (Anglo-Saxon with a touch of Scandinavian-perfectly comprehensible to modern native English speakers.) cannot be duplicated or even approximated in the others.

The writers of the KJV did not “invent” a whole new language, any more than Shakespeare or Chaucer did. They took what they found and worked it into a kind of “sub-mode” they thought particularly expressive. Modern English speakers utilize elements of all of them, but the language has also moved on. We do not speak KJV English or Rheims-Douay English or Elizabethan English. We really don’t even speak 19th Century shopkeeper-class English, though it is intelligible to us and much closer to what we now speak than is KJV English.

People tend to adopt words and phrases and constructions that have impressed them as expressive. Someday, someone will likely say that Ernest Hemingway invented modern English. Some will say William Randolph Hearst. And, to an extent, they will be right in saying either thing.
My two favourite Bibles are the KJV and Douay-Rheims. I actually own a reprint of the original 1611 KJV. I also happen to enjoy Shakespeare.😃
 
My two favourite Bibles are the KJV and Douay-Rheims. I actually own a reprint of the original 1611 KJV. I also happen to enjoy Shakespeare.😃
same here… bu t unfortunalty I only have a modern copy of the KJV with the corrected spelling.

I think the DRC(Douay-Rheims-Challoner) bible is the best translation ever made.
 
Does it have the “Apocrypha” or as I like to call them the Deutrocanon?

I know the Penguin publishing 1611 edition does and I’ve thought about getting that one.
Yes it does. It also includes the Morning and Evening Prayers readings.
 
A while ago I watched a whole documentary on the KJV’s effects on the English language (on the History Channel of course) and my question is what effects, if any, did the Douai-Rheims have on the English language? Did it, having been published several years before, have any effects on the standardization English language (the choosing of which words, both being perfectly good English at the time, but both being particular to a certain region)? I’m guessing no, because it was revised several times (including to make it closer to the KJV), however if it did or you have a link can you add it? Also, I know it was consulted in the writing of the KJV - is their any comparison between the original first edition copies of both if the KJV and the Douai to see if it [the KJV] borrowed (for the most part) the spellings used in the Douai?

Catholig
The KJV relied heavily on the Geneva Bible, which was the popular bible for English speakers at the time of the work of the KJV and the Douay-Rheims. In fact, it took over 50 years for the KJV to replace the Geneva in popularity.The Geneva bible was published in 1560. It was based mostly on William Tyndale’s translation efforts (during the 1520’s-1530’s). It was Tyndale who more than anyone, influenced the emergence of Modern English, through his translation and dissemination (at great cost to him and the readers) of the Scriptures.
 
I’m looking for a replica of the Douay Bible, but they cost too much.
 
A while ago I watched a whole documentary … (on the History Channel of course)
Are you trying to convince me “The Hitler Channel” had anything on it BUT Hitler, Nazis, World War II, or any program with the SLIGHTEST mention of Nazism in there?

😃
 
This is the DRB I have:hi5 - The social network for meeting new people

I would like a replica of the original douay. A replica of the first edition that was made in the 1500’s.
I think thats Bishop Challoner’s revision, The 1609 edition is avalible at www.realdouayrheims.com

Unfortunatly it’s not avalible as a complete bible yet, only in parts.

However as I said the Challoner revision is the bible I own and read from because it’s brilliant. I’ve got the Baronius Press 2005 Second Edition:


http://www.baroniuspress.com/images/engraving_4_thumbnail.gif
http://www.baroniuspress.com/images/map_2_thumbnail.gif
 
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