Knee jerk response to faith alone

[Pat_De]

Yeah and kids who don’t study, don’t graduate. And kids who don’t graduate, DON’T GET GRADUATIONS GIFTS.

What?! A gift that is based on performance? That’s right. Not all gifts are unconditionally free. In fact, most gifts aren’t. God is not different. God gives the gift of salvation to those who obey Him and do His Will:

That would be the blessing of assurance, but the true gift is that of His Son to save the lost and unless God bestows that gift on a person; the rest matters not. For obedience and to even to know the will of the Father and to obey is a result, not the means of salvation. You have put the cart before the horse. Again you can see you man-centered and not Christ-centered; could be immaturity or you have never been regenerated; what has the power of God done to change your life? Not religion, but what has God that shows you have been regenerated; do you see and know the changes and can describe them to one who asks?

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God,** but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, **he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

Matthew 7:21
**Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the ****will of my ****Father which is in **heaven.

God does declare a man righteous in the forensic sense.

That is not a Catholic teaching; ask your brethren to clarify it for you. That is Biblical and reformed theology, which the Catholic church rejects. It is a core difference between the Catholic church and the reformers; the forensic nature of justification apart from sanctification where the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer, so the Christian is literally declared right before God at the moment one has true faith in Christ and this justification is effectual in that it also infuses Christ righteousness to the believer, as the Scripture explicitly states, not infused over time as your religion teaches.

That is why God is our Judge. But God also INFUSES grace into the just man when the just man approaches the fountain of grace known as the Sacrament of Baptism. Wherein God infuses Sacramental Sanctifying Grace into the man’s soul, washing it, regenerating it and renewing it by the action of the Holy Spirit and accomplishing the creation of the New Man, which is Born Again in the image of Christ.

Again a man-centered salvation; not a Christ only centered salvation. Religion verses a personal relationship with a personal God.

God plus my works = my salvation or God plus God’s work on the cross = my salvation. Which do you think is the Biblical one?

We believe God gave man a free will, true.

Read Romans 3:9-20 & Ephesians 2:1-3, then you might discern the only free will man has is limited by his nature. The heresy is to believe their is some inherit good in man that he would somehow chose God, completely contrary to Scripture. Once God quickens the spiritually dead corpse; then the new creation in Christ has a new nature that will chose God’s ways over the old ways; it will be a lifelong battle because the new creation still lives in the defiled human body.

On the contrary. First of all, you don’t believe true Christianity and are not qualified to determine what is heresy.
Second, it is the Church which identified semi Pelagianism and condemned it.
Third, Scripture teaches that a man is regenerated and renewed in Baptism. Therefore, Baptism washes away original sin.

I have already identified accurately heresy you have written. Second, Scripture teaches man is regenerated by the grace of God and nothing to do with water baptism; so again you are teaching heresy.
Titus 3:4-7 will show you your error.

But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Before you get carried away the “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”; this is the “New Birth”, the scrubbing away of sin and renewing of the soul by the work of God. Examples would include James 1:18 & 1Peter 1:23; it is the work of God and is akin to John 3 being born from above. If you believe this happens at “water baptism”, then you will have all kinds of conflict with multiple sections of Scripture.

 

[Pat_De]

CONT’D

1. The Catholic Church teaches election.

It is evident, however, that this (inadequate) predestination does not exclude the possibility that one chosen to grace, faith, and justification goes nevertheless to hell. Source Impossible; if one is the elect of God; then this is in effect saying that God cannot hold those who He has elected unto salvation (Romans 8:29-30).

1. But Calvin teaches a sort of election which makes God unjust.

What is Calvin’s teaching in election?

1. Scripture says:
   1 Timothy 2:4
   **Who will have all **men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Don’t confuse God’s desire with His effectual will; this is what you have done here.

But you don’t believe Scripture and therefore add to the Word of God your tradition of men which is inconsistent with Scripture.

Do you mean like Priesthood, immaculate conception, worship of idols, images, people and relics to name a couple? I grew up in and around Catholics and none of these traditions pass the test of Scripture unlike singing Hymns or prayer meetings, which are traditions of men, but are in accord with he true worship of God.

Read Romans 5 and you will see that not all men are in that condition:
Romans 5:14
**Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ****Adam’s **transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I won’t even bother to address your error here; but suggest you begin in verse 12 so you might see you error.

On the contrary, it is not we who are spiritually dead, but you.
1 Corinthians 2:14
**But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are **spiritually discerned.

God will sort that out; remember the religious are on the broadway who cry out on judgment Lord Lord. It is the Christian who enters one at a time into a personal communion with the living God who is on the narrow way.

You know that you’re going to get hammered because you know that your Pastors teach error. I have read Scripture many times.

Actually; I knew I would be hammered because religious people hate the truth; the idea that they have nothing to do with their salvation, but the one who understands knows it is a privilege to participate in the work of salvation for the glory of God alone. Jesus said that the few people that find the narrow way/gate/door (Matt. 7:14); many of those who actually find it are unable to enter through it. "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." (Luke 13:24) Why? The total inability to die to self, Jesus said: Deny yourself (die completely to self), pick up your cross daily (be ready serve the perfect Master in all ways even unto death), and follow Me. Man-centered people prove they are unable to completely die to self, but again this is the work of God, which is why if not for the Elect of God; no one would enter heaven because all would turn and run from God, none would ever seek after Him and not one would. (Romans 3) I believe this clip by itinerary preacher & missionary, Paul Washer, puts things in perspective. “Who is Saved?” 9min. One only needs to listen to the first 1.5 minutes, but the entire things speaks volumes. To my knowledge, there is nothing that mentions Catholicism.

 

[Pat_De]

I hope you see the major error in your first statement here.

You say that Grace is a teaching of God before any Catholic or Protestant **then proceed to prove your point from the Bible which happens to have come from the Catholic Church!

**Sorry but try again.

The Catholic Bible contains errors and therefore cannot be from God; for God is perfection to the uttermost and that includes His word. You, like DeMaria, love to take pride or show your rather large ego’s in believing you have undone someone; like her I would say you are either a very immature Christian or not one at all; for no Christian would ever bask in what they believe to be an error would they?

Grace by faith is throughout the OT, which neither a Catholic nor a Protestant can make any claim to and furthermore all of Scripture is the work of the Holy Spirit working through the pens of men. This is why I suggested a reading of Hebrews chapter 11.

I have pretty much had enough of all this immaturity and egotistical attitudes unfitting for anyone naming Christ. Who is Saved?

 

[Pat_De]

Roman Catholic is the pejorative which Luther used to describe the Catholic Church. Many of us accept it because it is a convenient term to use. But the official title of the Catholic Church is THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Please to be fair; please tell all your brethren not to use the term “Roman Catholic” if that is offensive, which it seems to be otherwise why bother to bring this up?. I will refrain from using the word “Roman” and if I slip up and am called on it I will apologize.

Neither is the word “pew”. Yet you have many in your Church buildings. And although we use “confessionals” as convenient places within which to sit and express our repentance for our sins, a process which is known as confession. And process is certainly mentioned in Scripture:

Is that an analogy, for there were no church building either??

1 John 1:9
**If we confess our ****sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our **sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

And the Church is certainly given the authority to forgive the sins thus confessed:
John 20:23
**Whose soever sins ye remit, they are ****remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye ****retain, they are **retained.

What does the Catholic church know that the Jews did not? "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" & The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” Mark 2:7 & Luke 5:21

Matthew 18:18; Jesus preaching to a crowd of followers or disciples; most likely some true and some false. The point is God alone can forgive sins and the ability to share the Gospel, the message from heaven, that either binds or looses a person from their sin. God chose to use the royal priesthood of believers as the tool to deliver the “Gospel of our salvation” for those who believe. The power and the authority is in the Gospel, not the person God uses as a tool for delivery. Otherwise, then the Pope could go around and would be required to do and say you are forgiven and you are not and you 3 are, but you two are not. Notice how you always come to a man-centered position and i always come to a God-centered position. It is worth noting because it is a pattern and there is a good reason it is a pattern.

Acts 16:15

**And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
**
1 Corinthians 1:16
**And I baptized also the ****household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I **baptized any other.

Colossians 2:11
**In whom also ye are circumcised with the **circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of **bread, and in prayers.
**
Romans 15:6
**That ye may with one ****mind and ****one **mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:26
**For as often as ye eat this ****bread, and ****drink this **cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

You can’t provide even one verse where it is implied. Yet it is explicitly condemned:
James 2:17
**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is ****dead, being **alone.
**
Although perhaps St. James thinks he is contradicting St. Paul, the fact is that they don’t.
St. Paul is talking about the Catholic Teaching of a man’s attitude in the Sacraments, which are the work of God. Within which, we rest of our works and are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All we do is have faith in God’s promises.
Whereas St. James thinks that St. Paul is denying the basic and more ancient mode of justification which is by man’s efforts to please God. In other words, by faith and works.
Why? They are both correct.
Amen! But what is the difference between the Old and the New Testament?
This is what Protestants have failed to discern. In the New Testament, we are given the promise of becoming children of God and receiving the Holy Spirit, IF WE ARE BAPTIZED.
The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit was not available to the Jew. It is only possible through the Sacrament of Faith commonly known as Baptism.
CONT’D
**
After all that right above; all I can say it it is nice speaking with you I hope you enjoy your religious walk while God’s common grace is upon you - God blesses!

 

[De_Maria]

If in the context I used in the previous post, not as used below; then you can before men and do, but not so before God.

Yes indeed before God. But lets look at what is said below.

Let’s talk about a Christian; rather than religiosity.

Christianity is a form of religion. Have you not read in Scripture:
James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

A Christian is regenerated by the grace of God,

In Baptism.

justified by the grace of God,

Through faith and works.

sanctified by the grace of God,

In the Sacraments.

redeemed by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Amen!

The Christian walks in the good works that God also prepared before the foundation of the world. The Christian grows in faith, love and obedience to the commands of the Lord Jesus according to the will of the Father. The Christian grows in repentance, prayer, and holiness because of the guiding and work of the holy Spirit.

All Catholic Teaching.

Christians are the true church that Jesus himself is building and lives evermore to daily make intercession on behalf of His sheep and His sheep have yet to be revealed. Who are His sheep? The elect of God determined before the foundation of the world was laid.

Catholic Teaching.

The Christian puts Jesus above all things in their life; all things. The Christian has great reverence for the written Scripture

And because of his great reverence for Scripture, the Christian obeys the Church:
Matthew 18:17
**And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the ****church: but if he neglect to **hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

And keeps the Traditiions:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
**Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the **traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

and shows this by always reading and studying

And praying and attending the Mass:
Acts 6:4
**But we will give ourselves continually to ****prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
**
Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

in order to grow in holiness and understanding of the Lord Jesus and to know Him is to love Him; therefore the love and supremacy of Jesus continually grows and is manifest by the fruits of righteousness.

And obeying Him:
Romans 6:16
**Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to ****obey, his ****servants ye are to whom ye **obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Hebrews 5:9
**And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

None of any work that was not prepared by God would be pleasing to God,

Amen!

but since God has granted the Christian the privilege to serve Him, which is only possible by the regeneration of the soul, which is the sole work of God.

And which only occurs in the Sacraments.

Only then will the man of God be able to walk in the righteous deeds or work out sanctification, another gift of God or persevere to the end, another gift of God. If I asked what does the Bible say about who does the work of salvation it would be like asking who wrote the Bible; it is the same God is the Author and man is the means and the result is the glorification of God.

Amen!

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

By your sarcasm or self-aggrandizing; I can easily assume and discern you are very immature as a Christian or not one at all; for you take pleasure in what you believe is right in feeling that someone else is wrong in your own sight. Not a mark of a Christian or perhaps an immature one; so I would exhort you to refrain from such ego trips.

I would exhort you the same. If you can claim that I am spiritually deadl as you did here:
Also, Eph 2:1-4 will tell you that you are spiritually dead,

Then I believe I have the right to point out to you, your error and where I believe you are spiritually dead.

I have a question; if works are necessary for salvation and not a result of salvation, then what happened to the thief on the cross?

In order to understand the Scripture, one must understand the Spirit and not the letter only:
2 Corinthians 3:6
**Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the ****letter **killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Well, lets go over the Scripture which speaks of the St. Dismas, the Good Thief:

Luke 23:
39And one of the malefactors which were hanged …

St. Dismas was crucified with Christ. He was suffering with Him. What does Scripture say:
Romans 8:17
**And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we ****suffer ****with ****him, that we may be also **glorified together.

…railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. **** 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

St. Dismas rebuked the sinner:
1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

And he humbled himself before the Lord:
Luke 14:11
**For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that ****humbleth himself shall be **exalted.

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

And he called out to Jesus, making a confession of faith:
Romans 10:9
**That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the **Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And all of his works upon the cross have been written in Scripture and been the cause of many conversions:
James 5:20
**Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of **sins.

That is a work of God my friend, which will pass the test of fire:

1 Cor 3:

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

**43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. **

And this is what is called a Special Revelation. If Jesus says you are saved, you are saved. Period.

Amen?

What happens to those that may have conversion at the point of death?

God is their judge.

Do you see the difference?

Between St. Dismas and those who make deathbed confessions. Yes, there is a big difference. I don’t have any of the particulars of those who made deathbed confessions and even if I did, I’m not their judge.

Or can you read their hearts?

One claims works are a necessity for one to be saved;

That would be correct:
Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

whereas another says the Bible teaches works were prepared by God that the Christian, a saved person, would walk in them as a result of this wonderful and glorious regenerating work of God.

That is also correct:
Ephesians 2:10
**For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should **walk in them.

You see one glorifies God alone; the other glorifies the man who does the work; one is religion, the other is a relationship between man and God at a very personal level.

On the contrary, they both glorify God.

Which would you rather have? Which is God going to have?

I strive for both. Which would you rather have?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Pat_De]

I’m the one quoting Scripture. And yes, St. Paul and St. Silas were representing the Church. Both were elders of the CATHOLIC Church. It is they who were teaching the Good News of Jesus Christ and thus putting into practice the Tradition we call MAGISTERIUM. The Teaching Authority of the Church was obeying Jesus’ command to teach. NOT TO PASS OUT BIBLES.

Mathew 16 is the basis for the authority of the Catholic church, which it claims for itself and given to itself. It may be the basis of the Eastern Orthodox church; if taken out of biblical context since both make the same apostolic authoritative claims.

Or you can see it for what it is; that the Apostles were given the ability to do signs, healing and wonders to get the church, “Christ is actually building”, off the ground and running to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles.

The true church is found here in Scripture among some other places.
**Romans 8 – For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. **

I don’t expect you to believe this nor do I have any intention of convincing you otherwise for that is the power of God; not the power of Pat De. As for me, I will always and forever focus on the Person of Jesus and never on religion, but that is me and everyone’s spiritual walk is different in practice and reality. In the end, God will exact perfect justice according to His word.

 

[Pat_De]

CONT’D RESPONSE TO PAT DE

But God has never saved any who don’t work in obedience to Him.

Deuteronomy 5:29
**O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my **commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

In fact, God commanded ceremony. Have you not read the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy?

God hasn’t changed. It is Protestants who have changed the Word of God.

You deny the Scripture?

And God says:
1 Timothy 4:16
**Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both ****save **thyself, and them that hear thee.

And:
James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

And:
Colossians 1:24 (King James Version)

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

We don’t. Scripture says:
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It is you, especially Calvinists, but also the rest of the Protestants, who deny the true doctrine of election.

Let us proceed to examine this doctrine. Scripture says:
2 Peter 1:10
**Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election **sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Therefore, it is within man’s power make his calling and election sure by DOING THESE THINGS.

What things are they?
**4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. **** 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; **
** 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; **
** 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. **
** 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. **
** 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. **

That sounds like a whole list of RIGHTEOUS WORKS.

But please, correct me if I’m wrong. I’d also appreciate your posting at least a portion of a Scripture with an attempt to explain your understanding.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Better to post scripture in context than to post it for the sake of posting out of context. I have posted plenty of Biblical references; perhaps you need to go back and do a review???

 

[Pat_De]

… But what if Christians start disagreeing about what Scripture means?

Depends on your definition of what a Christian is; God’s children, they are in agreement as to salvation, but may disagree on eschatology or other minor issues.

At what moment in the sinner’s life does God do this work?

What does the Scripture say? Upon hearing the gospel and at the point of believing the Gospel.

Does the Christian have a free will? If so, what happens should the Christian decide not to endure to the end?

It is not possible for a child of God not to persevere since He who began a good work will complete it; unless you think God can’t handle it.

Reproof is not an ego trip. See 2 Tim 3:16.

An ego trip is not reproof.

Wrong Testament. The New Covenant was not operative yet.

So the person converted prior to death does not exist?

You need to answer the free will question before you can draw this conclusion.

I have answered it many times now; go back or better yet read Romans 3:9-20 and Eph 2:1-3; that is your free will.

You presuppose that no Catholic has a personal relationship with Jesus and in so doing you put yourself on His Throne.

You presume to drawl that conclusion.

 

[Pat_De]

DeMaria & CatHerder (what is that anyway?..LOL) - Thanks for the dialogue, but I have nothing else to add or that should be given concerning His Word. Good luck to you both.

Subscribing out!

 

[De_Maria]

It is evident, however, that this (inadequate) predestination does not exclude the possibility that one chosen to grace, faith, and justification goes nevertheless to hell. Source Impossible; if one is the elect of God; then this is in effect saying that God cannot hold those who He has elected unto salvation (Romans 8:29-30).

2 Peter 1:10
**Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election **sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Scripture says one must make his calling and election sure.

What is Calvin’s teaching in election?

As I understand Calvin’s teaching, he says that man has no free will and God leads men to heaven and to hell.
CALVINISM IS UNREASONABLE
Calvin located the reason of predestination solely in the absolute will of God. But by making God alone responsible for everything, Calvin abolished the free cooperation of the will in obtaining eternal happiness. Therefore he was logically forced to admit an irresistible efficacious grace, to deny the freedom of the will when influenced by grace, and to completely reject supernatural merits (as a secondary reason for eternal happiness)…
philvaz.com/apologetics/num21.htm

Don’t confuse God’s desire with His effectual will; this is what you have done here.

In fact, no. I had no idea that Calvin taught about God’s desire as I know that is a Catholic doctrine. Not a Calvinistic doctrine.

Do you mean like Priesthood,

1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

immaculate conception,

In the Greek, the term “kecharitomene”, meaning always full of grace, is used to address the Virgin Mary.
philvaz.com/apologetics/a116.htm

worship of idols,

We don’t worship idols

images,

Exodus 25:18
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

people

What about people? We are supposed to honor all who go before us:
Hebrews 12:22-24 (King James Version)

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

and relics to name a couple?

2 Kings 13:21
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and **touched the bones of **Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Acts 19:12
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

I grew up in and around Catholics and none of these traditions pass the test of Scripture unlike singing Hymns or prayer meetings, which are traditions of men, but are in accord with he true worship of God.

You simply don’t understand Scripture. But all the Traditions of the Catholic Church are either implied or explicit in Scripture.

Unlike the five Solas, which contradict Scripture outright.

I won’t even bother to address your error here;

Thats what people say when they can’t address a statement.

but suggest you begin in verse 12 so you might see you error.

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Are you saying that all men died? Which is in error then, this verse?
Genesis 5:24
**And Enoch **walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

or this one:
2 Kings 2:11
**And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and **Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Romans 5:12
**Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so **death passed upon **all ****men, for that **all have sinned:

If you claim that all means all without exception, then you make Genesis 5:24 and 2 Kings 2:11 false.

But if you understand that St. Paul is using “all” in a general sense and that some men did not die as a result of sin, then all three verses are correct.

Take your pick. Do you make Scripture a lie? Or is Scripture true?

God will sort that out; remember the religious are on the broadway who cry out on judgment Lord Lord.

On the contrary, the religious are on the narrow way which leads to salvation. Those who deny the religion of our Lord are on the broad way.

It is the Christian who enters one at a time into a personal communion with the living God who is on the narrow way.

Amen! That is Catholic Teaching.

Actually; I knew I would be hammered because religious people hate the truth;

On the contrary, those who deny the religion of Jesus Christ, deny the truth.

the idea that they have nothing to do with their salvation, but the one who understands knows it is a privilege to participate in the work of salvation for the glory of God alone.

All glory is to God, but not to God alone. God Himself tells us to glorify our fathers and our neighbors and all our brethren. Do you not know that God is love and to love one another is to give one another a share in God’s glory?

Jesus said that the few people that find the narrow way/gate/door (Matt. 7:14); many of those who actually find it are unable to enter through it. "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." (Luke 13:24) Why? The total inability to die to self, Jesus said: Deny yourself (die completely to self), pick up your cross daily (be ready serve the perfect Master in all ways even unto death), and follow Me.

Catholic Teaching. In fact, the epitome of faith and works.

Man-centered people prove they are unable to completely die to self, but again this is the work of God, which is why if not for the Elect of God; no one would enter heaven because all would turn and run from God, none would ever seek after Him and not one would. (Romans 3) I believe this clip by itinerary preacher & missionary, Paul Washer, puts things in perspective. “Who is Saved?” 9min. One only needs to listen to the first 1.5 minutes, but the entire things speaks volumes. To my knowledge, there is nothing that mentions Catholicism.

You keep ignoring Scripture. You follow this Paul Washer but St. Peter says clearly,
2 Peter 1:10
**Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and ****election **sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

You probably would be very happy if this verse were discarded. But it is happily, right there in the middle of the New Testament. And it tells you and everyone else, that WE participate in our election.

God calls us but we respond and have the option of continuing in our election, by doing good deeds, or of serving another master, by rejecting God’s call.

Romans 6:16
**Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to ****obey, his ****servants ye are to whom ye **obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

That is election.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

That would be the blessing of assurance, but the true gift is that of His Son to save the lost and unless God bestows that gift on a person; the rest matters not. For obedience and to even to know the will of the Father and to obey is a result, not the means of salvation.

Then you contradict Scripture:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect,** he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

This is very clear, if you obey, you will be saved. Not the other way around.
Matthew 19:17
**And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the **commandments.

If you will enter life, if you want to be saved, keep the commandments.

You have put the cart before the horse. Again you can see you man-centered and not Christ-centered; could be immaturity or you have never been regenerated; what has the power of God done to change your life? Not religion, but what has God that shows you have been regenerated; do you see and know the changes and can describe them to one who asks?

Scripture says we are regenerated and renewed in the Washing of the Spirit. This washing is called Baptism.
Titus 3:5
**Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of ****regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
**
But you tell me. And please, show me by Scripture. You just keep saying stuff regardless of whether its in Scripture or not.

That is not a Catholic teaching; ask your brethren to clarify it for you.

God is JUDGE. That is Catholic Teaching. And JUDGES make forensic statements:
Definition of FORENSIC

1** :** belonging to, used in, or suitable to courts of judicature or to public discussion and debate

So, when Scripture says that St. Cornelius is a JUST man. This is FORENSIC statement:
Acts 10:22
*And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just ***man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

But St. Cornelius was INFUSED with Sanctified Grace and justified by virtue of the sanctifying action of the Holy Spirit in Baptism:
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. **
** 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, **
** 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? **
** 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Aaah! Unfortunately, I have to cut this message short. But I’ll get back to it as soon as I can.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Philthy]

Yeah, read it and weep! Your Pastors are deceiving you. Works are a necessary component to salvation. ** If you don’t work for God, YOU WON’T BE SAVED.**

Careful! This is an inaccuracy that allows the “faith alone” discussion to drift into circles of speaking past each other. Being “saved” and “going to Heaven” are different events. You won’t find any of Scripture talking about “inheriting the Kingdom of God” or “going to Heaven” with anything remotely close to “by faith alone”. That aspect of salvation (ie being judged a sheep) simply isn’t spoken of that way - it is spoken of as “persevering”, avoiding sin, and loving others.
Don’t you mean to say that *even if *you have been saved, if you don’t work for God, YOU WON"T GO TO HEAVEN."?

The discussion becomes very focused when the topic of “inheriting the kingdom of God” (ie going to Heaven) becomes the issue and not the issue of “being saved”.

There are a couple of issues - those who have no opportunity to “work” after they have come to faith in Christ, etc. But those are the exceptions - and ones not discussed in Scripture - rather than the rule. The thief on the cross is often the immediate refuge of the Sola Fide adherent. But that argument falls flat on it’s face since the thief did work from the cross - he defended Christ, believed in his Lordship, and he admitted his own sin (ie repented).

Don’t create wiggle room where there really isn’t any.

Blessings!

 

[De_Maria]

Aaah, yes, where was I.

…That is not a Catholic teaching; ask your brethren to clarify it for you.

Right. I had just explained how justification is both forensic and infused, that is, transforming.

That is Biblical and reformed theology, which the Catholic church rejects.

No, no. The Reformers reject the idea that justification also transforms. We could simply add another “Sola” to the Reformers’ repertoire, "justification is forensic alone.

Whereas we understand that it is those whom God judges are “just” because of His very judgement are thereby cleansed of their sin and actually become “just”.

It is a core difference between the Catholic church and the reformers; the forensic nature of justification apart from sanctification where the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer, so the Christian is literally declared right before God at the moment one has true faith in Christ and this justification is effectual in that it also infuses Christ righteousness to the believer, as the Scripture explicitly states, not infused over time as your religion teaches.

Correct. You believe in snow covered dunghills. Where as we believe in “pure as the driven snow”.

In both cases, God’s judgment is involved. Thus they are both forensic. But in the Catholic case, those found to be just, are sanctified.

Again a man-centered salvation;

On the contrary, our religion is Christ centered. It is because we obey Christ that we obey and practice His religion.

not a Christ only centered salvation.

On the contrary, your religion is not Christ centered, it is man centered, since you JUDGE yourselves saved based upon your own criteria which are not in Scripture and thus usurp God’s authority.

Religion verses a personal relationship with a personal God.

Religion is a personal relationship with a personal God. At least, so is the Catholic Religion.

You also have a religion, although you might wish to deny it. But it is a personal relationship with yourself as you have chosen to deny the Word of God.

God plus my works = my salvation or God plus God’s work on the cross = my salvation. Which do you think is the Biblical one?

Neither of those. God Himself made the equation. But you refuse to acknowledge it:
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: **but if thou wilt enter into ****life, keep the **commandments.

Revelation 22:14
**Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of ****life, and may **enter in through the gates into the city.

Matthew 7:21
**Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the ****will of my ****Father which is in **heaven.

It is very clear then, that it is those who keep the Commandments who will enter heaven and be saved.

Read Romans 3:9-20 & Ephesians 2:1-3, then you might discern the only free will man has is limited by his nature.

Lol! Are you supposed to be contradicting Catholic doctrine? The Catholic Church acknowledges that we have a fallen nature and thereby our free will has been crippled. It is called, “concupiscence”:
***377 **The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

**418 *As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

The heresy is to believe their is some inherit good in man that he would somehow chose God, completely contrary to Scripture.

That makes no sense. Why preach then?

Romans 10:17
**So then faith cometh by ****hearing, and **hearing by the word of God.

Deuteronomy 30:19
**I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore ****choose **life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Psalm 51:13
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Once God quickens the spiritually dead corpse; then the new creation in Christ has a new nature that will chose God’s ways over the old ways; it will be a lifelong battle because the new creation still lives in the defiled human body.

That is Catholic Teaching.

I have already identified accurately heresy you have written.

Nope.

Second, Scripture teaches man is regenerated by the grace of God and nothing to do with water baptism; so again you are teaching heresy. Titus 3:4-7 will show you your error

On the contrary:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, **by the washing of **regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing of regeneration is Baptism.

Before you get carried away the “washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”; this is the “New Birth”,

We are born again in Baptism:
John 3

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,** Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. **
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,** Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. **
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

the scrubbing away of sin and renewing of the soul by the work of God.

Amen! That only takes place in Baptism.

Examples would include James 1:18 & 1Peter 1:23; it is the work of God and is akin to John 3 being born from above. If you believe this happens at “water baptism”, then you will have all kinds of conflict with multiple sections of Scripture.

On the contrary, it is you who will have conflict with Scripture. Jesus said you must be born of WATER and Spirit. What is it? Do you not believe His word? Do you think He can’t make it happen?

1 Peter 1:23 (King James Version)

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James 1:18 (King James Version)

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

I’m curious though, where do you see a denial of “water” baptism in these verses? Water isn’t even mentioned, so you must be really reading a lot of your man made tradition in to them in order to have them deny the rest of Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Better to post scripture in context than to post it for the sake of posting out of context. I have posted plenty of Biblical references; perhaps you need to go back and do a review???

I think you need to learn to read more than the preselected verses. You might try reading the entire Bible rather than just the verses which you can twist out of context to suit your religion.

 

[De_Maria]

Here is the problem besides context. I’ll give you three sets of passages to rebuke all you have just posted. Oh, religion is man at his worst; a religious person would be better to be an atheist in ignorance than to have a form of Christianity and deny the power of it.

On the contrary, it is those who deny religion who deny the power of Christianity. Let me take for instance, just one ritual. Baptism. You deny the power of the Word to effect, through water, what God has promised.

What if Naaman, had done the same? He would not have been cured of leprosy.

Who are the people on the broad road? Religious people.

Perhaps some. But those who fervently worship God in their religion, are on the narrow road. And those who deny religion, are all on the broad road. Because they have made idols of themselves.

The Christian was created for the glory of God in Christ; He is glorified in the display of His love and the display of His wrath. Religion was created by man to steal the glory due exclusively to Jesus Christ.

On the contrary, it is Jesus who said:
Luke 24:35
**And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of **bread.

Luke 22:19
**And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of ****me.

1 Corinthians 11:26
For as often as ye eat this ****bread, and ****drink this **cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.
Thus tying for all eternity, the Passover ritual, to His saving grace:1 Corinthians 5:7**
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even ****Christ our **passover is sacrificed for us:

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

---

***Because you understand neither the Scriptures nor the Word of God, you are led astray by your traditions of men. Permit me to help you understand this Scripture:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
God made us alive with Christ when we died with Him in Baptism and were raised again to eternal life:
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

It is in Baptism that we receive the Sanctifying grace of God, therefore he says, by grace you have been saved.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
***6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, ***

Because when we are Baptized, we become members of the Body of Christ, the Church and children of God and are seated with the Just being made perfect:
Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

***CONT’D

---

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

---

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

***So that, being made partakers of the Divine Nature, we are joined to the Body of Christ and become one with Him:
Galatians 2:20
**I am crucified ****with ****Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but **Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

---

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;

***Because in Baptism, we believe in God’s promises. Faith is believing. Those who don’t believe, are condemned:
Mark 16:16
**He that believeth and is ****baptized shall be saved; but he that **believeth not shall be damned.

---

and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;

***Faith is a grace. And therefore the gift of God. But faith must be exercised or it is nothing:
Hebrews 11:6
**But without **faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

James 2:18
**Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy ****faith **without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

---

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

***Again, because in Baptism, all we do is believe.

---

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.***

But in Baptism, we are created, regenerated, renewed and born again in Christ Jesus, for good works. And if we don’t continue in these good works, we will not be saved:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Romans 2:7
**To them who by patient **continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

---

---

Is he speaking to the religious works-based salvationist or the Christian who acknowledges the total sovereignty of God in salvation?

He is speaking to Catholics who understand that faith is expressed in works. And that if one doesn’t have works and yet professes faith, that faith is dead or indeed, nonexistent and therefore, worth nothing:
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the **kingdom of ****heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in **heaven.

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

What is Paul saying here; they were very religious, but they were missing something; what was it? They did not know the righteousness of God and therefore did not subject themselves to His righteousness, but instead created their own righteousness. See the problem? What is God’s righteousness? Jesus Christ

Yeah, I see the problem and it reminds me of you. You are very religious (although you claim not to be) and you have changed the righteousness of God for your own. Jesus Christ said, “Believe and be Baptized and you shall be saved.” But you say, “what does He know? I know how I’ll be saved, without baptism.”

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Jesus Christ says, “If ye will enter life, keep the Commandments”. But you say, “what does He know? I’ll be saved without works.”

Jesus Christ says, “Do this in remembrance of me.” But you say, “what does He know? That’s just a religious ritual that the filthy religious do. I’m too good for that. God knows me how faithful I am and how saved because I deserve to be, because of my faith.”

But Scripture says:
Luke 14:11
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And also:
1 Corinthians 4:5
**Therefore judge ****nothing ****before the ****time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
**

Galatians 1:6-9
***I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is {really} not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! ***

Again, that describes you. By now, I’ve posted enough Scripture for anyone to see that in order for someone to believe as you do, you have to throw out half of Scripture.

If you read Romans 3:9-20, you might see that if not for election, not one person would be in heaven because a dead person (Eph2:1-3) and the cancer of sin (Ro. 3) is so bad that no one would seek after God; all would reject Him,

On the contrary, because God is always seeking man and giving him grace. Many men, from time immemorial have, cooperating with that grace, turned to God and been proclaimed “just”. Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Zechariah and Elizabeth etc. etc.

which is why they are responsible for going to hell.

Certainly, those who deny God are responsible for their own damnation. But the fact is that they choose their destination. Just as those who seek God, choose to do so of their free will.

If God did not remove the blinders for the elect to display His love; then there would be none in heaven. I praise God that 1) He is totally sovereign in salvation because left an ounce to myself I would blow it nor sustain it 2) He opened my eyes to see myself as a wretch I was before He made me a new creation in Christ Jesus!

Now, in order to be perfect, you need to pray that God opens your eyes to the true faith which is only found in the Catholic Church. Otherwise, even though you are running the race, you too may be disqualified.

Don’t tell me I am saying works are not important because God said:

***For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ***

Then you’d better choose to do His works. Because without them, you won’t be saved.
1 Corinthians 7:19
**Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the **commandments of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria