Knee jerk response to faith alone

[De_Maria]

When a Protestant says that justification is by faith alone, the Catholic reflex is to say that justification is by faith and works. However, that response is not completely correct.

Why? Because:
There are three phases of justification.
Justification by the unmerited gift of grace. This is our acceptance of God’s call to repentance.

Justification by faith and works is our cooperation to God’s call and gift of predisposing grace which is faith. During this phase we seek God by doing works of faith and repentance. We also seek to be His children by requesting Baptism.

Justification by the Sacraments, particularly the Sacrament of Baptism. This is the Work of God ALONE. We don’t do anything. We can’t. We can’t wash our soul.

Continuing justification by faith and works. This is the work of the Christian who has been incorporated into the Body of Christ.

We can follow those phases of justification in the explanation of Trent and in Scripture:
The Catholic View of Salvation is actually comprehensive. The Council of Trent and Scripture are the Church’s infallible sources for teaching about justification. And Trent says:

Unmerited gift of grace
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
It is furthermore declared that in adults the ** beginning of that justification** must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, …

This coincides with Scripture where St. Paul says:
**Romans 3:23-25
**23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

faith and works
Then:
CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION

Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when,… **they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake; … finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.
**
Then, after resolving to receive Baptism, the adult resolves to live a live a new life of repentance and to keep the Commandments.

This coincides with St. James when he says:
James 2:24**
Ye see then how that by ****works a man is ****justified, and not by ****faith **only.

And with St. Paul who says:
Romans 2:13
**For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

Sacramental justification by faith apart from works
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES

This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]

The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32]

That is a description of Baptism, which is the perfection of that justification begun in Chapter V.

And this coincides with Scripture where St. Paul says:
Titus 3:5
**Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of ****regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And where St. Peter says (see bolded section):Acts 2:38**
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And after Baptism, the cycle begins again, with continuing justification by faith and works.

But this perfection of justification in Baptism is not the end of justification. Because if you read on in Chapter X, we find:
CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified …faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] …

So the teaching of the Catholic Church on justification is comprehensive of all aspects of the process taught in Scripture.

1. Initial justification or the beginning of justification which is by grace without any merit on our part.
2. The beginning of justification before Baptism and the continuing justification which is after Baptism which are by grace through faith and works.
3. The justification of the sinner by God in the Sacraments which is by grace through faith apart from works.

Please let me know your thoughts.

 

[Iprobe]

In most of Protestantism, justification is once-for-all (new nature), whereas sanctification is ongoing. The latter flows from the former. There is no “cycle” of justification, only the washing of sin after confession, cf. John 13:8ff:

Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.”
Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!”
Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over…” (My emphasis)

IOW, one does not fall in and out of justification, nor can one increase in merit (only in becoming more and more like Him).

 

[De_Maria]

In most of Protestantism, justification is once-for-all (new nature),

Are you speaking of Once Saved Always Saved? Is that what once-for-all means?

whereas sanctification is ongoing.

So, then, is sanctification by faith and works?

The latter flows from the former.

Sanctification flows from justification? What part do faith and works play in justification? What part do they play in sanctification?

There is no “cycle” of justification, only the washing of sin after confession, cf. John 13:8ff:

Then what is the sense of “confession”? I assume you are talking about sacramental confession? If there is no cycle of justification then you are not restored to justice after confession, so what’s the sense in having confession?

IOW, one does not fall in and out of justification,

Do you mean that you don’t believe in mortal sin? How about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, do you believe in that? And if someone commits one of those sins, do they remain amongst the just?

nor can one increase in merit (only in becoming more and more like Him).

Isn’t that the same thing as increasing in merit? Isn’t it more meritorious to be like Christ? After all, He is the One whom the Father loves. The entire reason we become like Him is so that the Father will love us the more. Therefore, our likeness to Him is meritorious and the more like Him we become, the more we increase in merit.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Iprobe]

:coolinoff: :ballspin: Whew, for someone like me who’s not an apologist or a systematic theologian, all those questions make my head spin. Let me try tackling them bit by bit.

[Note: all emphases in vss. quoted are mine]

The entire reason we become like Him is so that the Father will love us the more.

How does that square with (Romans 5), “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”? Or with “While we were yet helpless, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly”? He already loved His own before they ever even cared about Him or the Gospel. Can you love someone more than by dying in their stead when they couldn’t even care less about you? “Greater love hath no man, than that he lay down his life…”

No, the whole reason we hope and strive to become more like Him is because (a) that was His original design for humans (because we’re created in His image), and (b) because that is the Christian’s “logical service” (Romans 12:1—the Greek word is “logikos”) to God. (Another reason often cited is the motivation of gratitude for His free gift of salvation.) If He has done so much for us (including giving us the new nature = regeneration), then the “logical” response is to the best of our ability avoid sin and pursue excellence. Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 (and other passages) that a Christian is “dead to sin,” and must no longer dwell in it; it’s a contradiction.

Notice also these verses (especially the bolded part):

the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father [notice what it doesn’t say: “because you are increasing in merit” or something to that effect]. (John 16:27)

that Thou hast sent me and hast loved them [the believers] even as Thou hast loved Me. (John 17:23) Is that staggering or what?!?

Therefore, our likeness to Him is meritorious and the more like Him we become, the more we increase in merit.

No, because Christ’s perfect and infinite merit is totally credited to our account the moment we trust in Him as Savior and LORD. You can’t undo Christ’s perfect and infinite merit by your sin (although you can of course affect your fellowship with God). If a true believer continues to sin in what RCism calls “mortal” ways, then God chastises (can even involve His taking the believer’s life). A mortal sin is one like you see happening when the guy touched the Ark in the O.T., or when Ananias lied: God took their lives.

Now, if we were to repudiate Him and His atonement and His imputed righteousness, then yes, we cut ourselves off (just like if you jumped back out of the Coast Guard helicopter that rescued you from drowning, you’d be back in the position of drowning again). That would no doubt fall under the category of “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.”

One of the things that doesn’t make sense to me about the RC view is: how is it “good news” (which is what “gospel” means) if, once you’re justified, you constantly have to worry about once again being banished to hell?

(Footnote: Bear in mind that the Protestant formula “justified by faith” is shorthand for “justified by grace alone” [which is inherent alone in Christ’s perfect life and atonement]—faith is simply the conduit, as it were. It isn’t the “amount” of faith we have–remember the mustard seed?—or the “perfection” of our faith, but simply the fact THAT we put our whole trust in Christ & His righteousness. To use another analogy, faith is the umbilical cord through which all of God’s goodness reaches us. If you cut the umbilical cord on the baby before he’s ready to live outside the womb, it deprives him of all the nutrients he needs to survive. God’s grace is the “nutrients,” faith is the “umbilical cord.”)

More later…

 

[Cat_Herder]

In most of Protestantism, justification is once-for-all (new nature), whereas sanctification is ongoing. The latter flows from the former. There is no “cycle” of justification, only the washing of sin after confession, cf. John 13:8ff:
IOW, one does not fall in and out of justification, nor can one increase in merit (only in becoming more and more like Him).

That interpretation is not scriptural. According to the Bible, justification can be forefeited and is thus part of the same process as sanctification, to wit:

26*For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 29How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know the one who said, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God…

 

[De_Maria]

:coolinoff: :ballspin: Whew, for someone like me who’s not an apologist or a systematic theologian, all those questions make my head spin. Let me try tackling them bit by bit.

[Note: all emphases in vss. quoted are mine]

Sorry about that.

How does that square with (Romans 5), “While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”? Or with “While we were yet helpless, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly”? He already loved His own before they ever even cared about Him or the Gospel. Can you love someone more than by dying in their stead when they couldn’t even care less about you? “Greater love hath no man, than that he lay down his life…”

This teaching can be deduced from Scripture. The New Testament is in fact a manual on the imitation of Christ:

Colossians 3:11
**Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but ****Christ ****is ****all, and in ****all.
**
Galatians 2:20
**I am crucified ****with ****Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but **Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Your understanding of Romans 5 does not take into account
Hebrews 5:9
**And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

Christ did not die for all people. Otherwise, there would be no hell. And the fact is that sinners remain in this world. But although God the Father loves them, He doesn’t love them as much as He loves those who obey Christ and in so doing become like Christ.

1 Peter 2:21
**For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his **steps:

No, the whole reason we hope and strive to become more like Him is because (a) that was His original design for humans (because we’re created in His image), and (b) because that is the Christian’s “logical service” (Romans 12:1—the Greek word is “logikos”) to God. (Another reason often cited is the motivation of gratitude for His free gift of salvation.) If He has done so much for us (including giving us the new nature = regeneration), then the “logical” response is to the best of our ability avoid sin and pursue excellence. Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 (and other passages) that a Christian is “dead to sin,” and must no longer dwell in it; it’s a contradiction.

That is correct but incomplete. We also become like Christ because we love Him in return and also because we believe in God’s promises which guarantee salvation for those who obey Christ by keeping the Commandments:
John 15:10
**If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my ****love; even as I have kept my Father’s ****commandments, and abide in his **love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
**Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the **commandments of God.

Hebrews 6:12
**That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the **promises.

Notice also these verses (especially the bolded part):

• the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father [notice what it doesn’t say: “because you are increasing in merit” or something to that effect]. (John 16:27)

Notice that the Father loves those who love the Son. Not just anyone. The Father’s love for us is conditional on our love for the Son. And if we couple this with John 15:10, our love for the Son is conditioned on our keeping the Commandments.

• that Thou hast sent me and hast loved them [the believers] even as Thou hast loved Me. (John 17:23) Is that staggering or what?!?

Quite. But you shot yourself in the foot as you added, in parenthesis that God, the Father loves the “believers”. Therefore, again proving that there is a condition upon the unconditional love of God.

No, because Christ’s perfect and infinite merit is totally credited to our account the moment we trust in Him as Savior and LORD. You can’t undo Christ’s perfect and infinite merit by your sin (although you can of course affect your fellowship with God). If a true believer continues to sin in what RCism calls “mortal” ways, then God chastises (can even involve His taking the believer’s life). A mortal sin is one like you see happening when the guy touched the Ark in the O.T., or when Ananias lied: God took their lives.

On the contrary, Adam and Eve committed the first mortal sin and that sin simply put them at odds with God. The same occurs anytime any of us sin wilfully against the Commandments of God.

cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

Now, if we were to repudiate Him and His atonement and His imputed righteousness, then yes, we cut ourselves off (just like if you jumped back out of the Coast Guard helicopter that rescued you from drowning, you’d be back in the position of drowning again). That would no doubt fall under the category of “blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.”

Agreed.

One of the things that doesn’t make sense to me about the RC view is: how is it “good news” (which is what “gospel” means) if, once you’re justified, you constantly have to worry about once again being banished to hell?

That is your misunderstanding of Catholic Teaching. We don’t live in worry. We live in hope of salvation. But we don’t presume to know the judgement of God. We live according to Scripture:

1 Corinthians 4:5
**Therefore judge ****nothing ****before the **time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

God is our judge. We don’t judge ourselves.

(Footnote: Bear in mind that the Protestant formula “justified by faith” is shorthand for “justified by grace alone” [which is inherent alone in Christ’s perfect life and atonement]—faith is simply the conduit, as it were.

Faith is itself a grace. The problem with Protestant theology is that they misunderstand Christian Soteriology.

Certainly ALL IS GRACE. But although God alone created the world and therefore the world can be said to be created by the grace of God alone. God did not will that our salvation be according to His grace alone but by our cooperation with His grace.

That is why Scripture says:
Hebrews 5:9
**And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that **obey him;

And we can deduce this by the very fact that FAITH the grace by which we are saved is a very unique type of grace. It is a grace which requires that we exercise it. That is why Scripture says that faith alone is dead (James 2:17).

And faith is like a muscle. The more we exercise it, the more it grows. This is why we are justified by works and not by faith only (James 2:24).

It isn’t the “amount” of faith we have–remember the mustard seed?—or the “perfection” of our faith, but simply the fact THAT we put our whole trust in Christ & His righteousness.

On the contrary, the amount of faith certainly has much to do with our justification. That is why Jesus said:
Matthew 13:12
**For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more **abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

To use another analogy, faith is the umbilical cord through which all of God’s goodness reaches us. If you cut the umbilical cord on the baby before he’s ready to live outside the womb, it deprives him of all the nutrients he needs to survive. God’s grace is the “nutrients,” faith is the “umbilical cord.”)

Good analogy. It is the same one as the vine. But that simply means that one can do nothing unless one is being fed by the vine. One can do no good works unless one is being fed by the vine.
John 15

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Which is a teaching that confirms faith and works.

However, I believe you’ve missed the entire point of my article.

My point is that justification by faith and works is just as incomplete as saying justification by faith apart from works.

There are three modes of justification which can be traced in the doctrine of Trent and in Scripture.

Justification by grace.
Justification by faith and works.
Justification by the Sacraments, which amounts to justification by faith apart from works.

More later…

Ok,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Brian_Culliton]

That is your misunderstanding of Catholic Teaching. We don’t live in worry. We live in hope of salvation. But we don’t presume to know the judgement of God. We live according to Scripture:

“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1John 5:1-5)

Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The Law was burdensome and nobody but Christ could keep it. Your church has a law that says Catholics must attend mass on obligated days, and if they fail to do so without good reason they commit mortal sin. Then in order to be restored to a state of grace they must confess to a priest and be absolved. This appears to be a burden.

Can you please tell me where Christ commanded this? I can’t find it anywhere?

 

[JonNC]

Hi De Maria,
I hope you don’t mind my 2 cents.
I don’t know Iprobe’s communion, so I’m not speaking for Iprobe, but here is a Lutheran’s perspective.

=De Maria;7053263]Are you speaking of Once Saved Always Saved? Is that what once-for-all means?

No! Perseverance of Saints is a Reformed notion. While justification, in Lutheran thought is “forensic”, it does not imply that once justified, we can’t reject Christ. We can.

So, then, is sanctification by faith and works?

In a way, yes. While we believe that justification is monergistic - God brings us to justification by grace through faith, and not by any works we may do, sanctification is in some ways synergistic, we respond to grace by obeying His commands, and working to conform our lives to Him.

Sanctification flows from justification? What part do faith and works play in justification? What part do they play in sanctification?

Our good works play no part in justification, what Catholics might call initial justification. It is the Holy Spirit working within us, through Baptism and hearing the word. Sanctification includes our response, strengthened by Grace, including sanctifying Grace in the sacraments.

Then what is the sense of “confession”? I assume you are talking about sacramental confession? If there is no cycle of justification then you are not restored to justice after confession, so what’s the sense in having confession?

Repeated and unrepented sin will eventually lead us from Christ, driving out the Holy Spirit. Confession /Absolution brings us back to Him. He forgives our sins, and cleanses us from unrighteousness.

Do you mean that you don’t believe in mortal sin? How about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, do you believe in that? And if someone commits one of those sins, do they remain amongst the just?

All sin is mortal sin to the unregenerate. Lutherans generally don’t distinguish mortal and venial sins in the regenerate, but recognize the need of repentance.

Isn’t that the same thing as increasing in merit? Isn’t it more meritorious to be like Christ? After all, He is the One whom the Father loves. The entire reason we become like Him is so that the Father will love us the more. Therefore, our likeness to Him is meritorious and the more like Him we become, the more we increase in merit.

Maybe, if one views merit in this way. The question is whose merit? Conforming our lives to Christ is more our willingness to be conformed by the Holy Spirit. Our good works are His works in us. Must we cooperate? Sure.

Jon

 

[Marc_Anthony]

“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1John 5:1-5)

Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The Law was burdensome and nobody but Christ could keep it. Your church has a law that says Catholics must attend mass on obligated days, and if they fail to do so without good reason they commit mortal sin. Then in order to be restored to a state of grace they must confess to a priest and be absolved. This appears to be a burden.

Can you please tell me where Christ commanded this? I can’t find it anywhere?

Where Christ commanded that there be an actual confession in the EXACT way you describd it? It’s not in there. BUT, he does give authority to his Church to forgive sins in Matthew 18:18, and in the Second Letter to the Corinthians 5: 19-20 Paul says:

“19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.
20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.”

So in the name of The Father, and the Son, (who is Christ, of course-just as Paul asked us) and the Holy Spirit the Priests act as ambassadors to help us become reconciled to God, since as Paul said, “He hath placed in us the word of reconciliation”.

 

[Iprobe]

[Hebrews 10 passage] That interpretation is not scriptural. According to the Bible, justification can be forefeited [sic] and is thus part of the same process as sanctification

But look at the context of that passage you quoted: it’s all about not reverting to the Old Covenant, not doing what I mentioned in my previous post about spurning Christ, etc. I don’t think that verse proves that justification and sanctification are identical (related, yes, but not identical).

That is your misunderstanding of Catholic Teaching. We don’t live in worry. We live in hope of salvation.

But RCism has the whole “mortal sin” teaching: so, what happens if you die suddenly without first having been able to confess and do penance for some mortal sin?

God is our judge. We don’t judge ourselves.

But when you’re told that mortal sin separates you from God eternally, that is judging right there. Not to mention that the Scriptures tell us to judge ourselves:

1 Cor. 11: * But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.*

1 Cor. 5: * For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”*

And faith is like a muscle. The more we exercise it, the more it grows.

What about the “Dark Night of the soul”? What about Job, the most righteous man on the planet at his time, yet he cursed the very day of his birth (when he seemed to be going through a “Dark Night,” too). Or Mother Theresa’s “Dark Night” of 40 years? Mind you, I’m not disagreeing that we need to “exercise” our faith (after all, that’s what it’s there for ), but simply that there might be dryness inspite of our exercising it.

On the contrary, the amount of faith certainly has much to do with our justification. That is why Jesus said:Matthew 13:12
**For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more **abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

First, I’m not convinced that verse means what you’re claiming here. From the context, it seems to me that verse is talking about the same thing Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 2: “Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God…The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” Secondly, can you honestly claim that the intensity of your faith doesn’t wax and wane? Some days for me, it seems rather wooden (intellectual), other days, it feels like it’s blazing. If the “amount” or intensity of faith determined our justification, we’d all be in big trouble.

However, I believe you’ve missed the entire point of my article.

It’s true, I might’ve.

My point is that justification by faith and works is just as incomplete as saying justification by faith apart from works. There are three modes of justification which can be traced in the doctrine of Trent and in Scripture.

Justification by grace.
Justification by faith and works.
Justification by the Sacraments, which amounts to justification by faith apart from works

Interesting thought; I’ll have to think more on it. But right away, I wonder about someone like the thief on the cross…

“He hath placed in us the word of reconciliation”.

That’s referring to proclaiming the Gospel.

 

[Philthy]

Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

Yes he did.

The Law was burdensome and nobody but Christ could keep it.

OK.

Your church has a law that says Catholics must attend mass on obligated days, and if they fail to do so without good reason they commit mortal sin. Then in order to be restored to a state of grace they must confess to a priest and be absolved. This appears to be a burden.

Yes it is a light burden, not a heavy one, consistent with what Christ said. What’s your point? Did you mistakenly assume he meant there was NO burden to his “light” burden? I dont think attending Mass on Sunday is a burden. It is an obligation for sure, but Christ gave a much more burdensome obligation in saying “I command you to love one another”.

Can you please tell me where Christ commanded this? I can’t find it anywhere?

The church has always seen the obligation to “Keep Holy the Sabbath Day” as being fulfilled by keeping Holy the “Lords Day”, Sunday, the day of His resurrection. As a matter of fact, you might want to take a glance at the practice of the early Church in Acts 2:42 where they met DAILY for devotion to the Apostles teaching, for the prayers, for the breaking of the bread, etc. That sounds a lot like Mass to me - and they met daily.
With respect to confessing, that was clearly established near the end of John’s Gospel:
“He breathed on them (ie Apostles) and said, Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit - the sins of those YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, the sins of those you retained are retained.”
How is that command given to the Apostles active in your faith community?

Blessings!

 

[De_Maria]

“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1John 5:1-5)

Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light. The Law was burdensome and nobody but Christ could keep it. Your church has a law that says Catholics must attend mass on obligated days, and if they fail to do so without good reason they commit mortal sin. Then in order to be restored to a state of grace they must confess to a priest and be absolved. This appears to be a burden.

Can you please tell me where Christ commanded this? I can’t find it anywhere?

It is commanded in the Scriptures by St. Paul:
Hebrews 10

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
** 25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves** together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
** 26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
**

***If we forsake the assembly, we sin wilfully.

---

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

He compares forsaking the assembly to the person who despised the law of Moses and is stoned without mercy. A mortal sin.

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, **who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? **
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

***It is in the Mass that we receive the Body of Christ and the Blood of the Covenant in the Eucharist. Therefore if we forsake the Mass, we have trod under the Son of God and counted the Blood of Christ by which we are sanctified an unholy thing.

I think that constitutes a mortal sin.***

But please, tell me what you think.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi De Maria,
I hope you don’t mind my 2 cents.

Sure don’t. And it sounds as though we are very close in understanding. I think the major points are the definition of justification and sanctification and the part about works not leading to justification. But disregard that little summary, I’ll go point by point in your message.

I don’t know Iprobe’s communion, so I’m not speaking for Iprobe, but here is a Lutheran’s perspective.

No! Perseverance of Saints is a Reformed notion.

Was Luther not the chief Reformer?

While justification, in Lutheran thought is “forensic”, it does not imply that once justified, we can’t reject Christ. We can.

Ok, I won’t argue. Between you and I, you are the Lutheran expert.

In a way, yes. While we believe that justification is monergistic - God brings us to justification by grace through faith, and not by any works we may do,

How about this verse in Scripture?
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, **but the doers of the law shall be **justified

How do you reconcile that with your statement above?

sanctification is in some ways synergistic, we respond to grace by obeying His commands, and working to conform our lives to Him.

I am in agreement with that statement. I believe it is taught in Scripture and in Trent:

*CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
*Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]

Our good works play no part in justification, what Catholics might call initial justification. It is the Holy Spirit working within us, through Baptism and hearing the word.

Then what leads an adult to desire Baptism?

In Catholicism, we have a process called RCIA. Converts to Catholicism enter that process to prepare for Baptism. In that process they willingly begin to live like Christians by obeying the Commandmenst, praying like Christians and essentially changing themselves on the outside by adopting the virtues and ethics of the Catholic.

This simple process proves that works are transformative and justifying. A person who develops holy habits becomes holy by virtue of willingly adopting holy habits.

Do you disagree?

And that process is in direct correlation with St. Paul’s statement: “doers of the law are justified.”

Sanctification includes our response, strengthened by Grace, including sanctifying Grace in the sacraments.

Amen! We agree there. And I might add that when the Sacraments are in effect due to the ex opere operato nature of the Sacraments, all that is left to us is to believe in the power of God who thereby justifies according to our faith apart from our works.

Repeated and unrepented sin will eventually lead us from Christ, driving out the Holy Spirit. Confession /Absolution brings us back to Him. He forgives our sins, and cleanses us from unrighteousness.

Amen!

All sin is mortal sin to the unregenerate. Lutherans generally don’t distinguish mortal and venial sins in the regenerate, but recognize the need of repentance.

I’d never thought about it. It makes sense to an extent.

Maybe, if one views merit in this way. The question is whose merit?

The question of whose merit and how much is really academic. You see, the Catholic Church does not suggest that one go about measuring his merit. In fact, the Catholic Church discourages that practice of some to consider EITHER their faith or works are so meritorious that they needs be saved because of them.

Juxtapose here the attitude of the Reformers who are constantly saying that they are SAVED by their faith. In essence they are forcing God’s hand. They are presuming their own holiness. A sin against the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Church teaches that God judges us. It doesn’t matter how much faith we claim or how many deeds we have done.

Even all those indulgences you hear about. They are all dependent upon a proper disposition which only God can judge.

Conforming our lives to Christ is more our willingness to be conformed by the Holy Spirit. Our good works are His works in us. Must we cooperate? Sure.

We agree on quite a bit. I’m looking forward to your comments on that where we differ.

Jon

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

But look at the context of that passage you quoted: it’s all about not reverting to the Old Covenant, not doing what I mentioned in my previous post about spurning Christ, etc. I don’t think that verse proves that justification and sanctification are identical (related, yes, but not identical).

I don’t believe they are identical either.

To me, justification is the conversion of a sinner to a believer and further, the repentance of that sinner who by his works shows his repentance.

Sanctification is going on in that process as well. But for some, such as many of the canonized Saints, the process of justification ends here in this life and they begin to perfect their sanctification before they are judged in heaven.

Therefore, justification is the elimination of sin nature.
Sanctification is the perfection of holiness.
They begin at the same time but sanctification continues on if justification is completed.

But RCism has the whole “mortal sin” teaching: so, what happens if you die suddenly without first having been able to confess and do penance for some mortal sin?

That depends. Did you repent of your sin and intend to go to confession but were impeded by something? If so, then God who is just will make up for your limitation.

But if you did not repent and intend to confess and do penance, then you tell me, what should happen to that individual?

But when you’re told that mortal sin separates you from God eternally, that is judging right there.

You are just making stuff up now.

Mortal sin separates you from God, true. But it is up to you if it is eternal separation. if you never repent and do penance, then yes, you have pretty much made it an eternal separation.

Not to mention that the Scriptures tell us to judge ourselves:

1 Cor. 11: * But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.*

1 Cor. 5: * For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”*

Actually, Scripture tells us not to judge ourselves.
1 Corinthians 4:2-4 (King James Version)

2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

What about the “Dark Night of the soul”? What about Job, the most righteous man on the planet at his time, yet he cursed the very day of his birth (when he seemed to be going through a “Dark Night,” too). Or Mother Theresa’s “Dark Night” of 40 years? Mind you, I’m not disagreeing that we need to “exercise” our faith (after all, that’s what it’s there for ), but simply that there might be dryness inspite of our exercising it.

The whole point of the Dark Night is that one continues to exercise his faith through the dryness and therefore receives many more graces. Mother Theresa experienced the dark night for 40 years. In those 40 years did you hear that she even once stopped taking care of her patients?

First, I’m not convinced that verse means what you’re claiming here. From the context, it seems to me that verse is talking about the same thing Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 2: “Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God…The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” Secondly, can you honestly claim that the intensity of your faith doesn’t wax and wane? Some days for me, it seems rather wooden (intellectual), other days, it feels like it’s blazing. If the “amount” or intensity of faith determined our justification, we’d all be in big trouble.

That is why God is our judge. And that is why we do believe in faith AND WORKS.

It’s true, I might’ve.

Interesting thought; I’ll have to think more on it. But right away, I wonder about someone like the thief on the cross…

Well, he was saved by grace because grace put Jesus right beside Him.
He was saved by works because he defended Jesus from the unrepentant sinner on the other cross. And he was hanging on the cross thus expiating his sin in suffering. In addition, his words were memorialized in Scripture and have been inspired many to convert to Christianity. Thus his confession was a work of Gold of the highest calibre.

He was saved by grace through faith apart from works, because Jesus said that he would be in paradise and Jesus word is effective. The Good Thief was done working. It was Jesus’ turn to effect the reward for his good works.

That’s referring to proclaiming the Gospel.

I would have to agree.
2 Corinthians 5:18-20 (King James Version)

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,** and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; **
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and** hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. **
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[JonNC]

=De Maria;7059363]Sure don’t. And it sounds as though we are very close in understanding. I think the major points are the definition of justification and sanctification and the part about works not leading to justification. But disregard that little summary, I’ll go point by point in your message.

Actually, it is worthy of regard.

Was Luther not the chief Reformer?

When I say Reformed, I mean Calvinism.

Ok, I won’t argue. Between you and I, you are the Lutheran expert.

And you the expert on Catholicism, compared to me. The Lutheran Confessions are quite clear about free will of the regenerate to reject Christ. It is different from the Calvinist TULIP.

How about this verse in Scripture?
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, **but the doers of the law shall be **justified
How do you reconcile that with your statement above?

Failure to obey His commands are in fact sin. While good works do not in and of themselves save (that is the work of the Christ, the Son of the living God), good works are a required part of the life of the regenerate.

I am in agreement with that statement. I believe it is taught in Scripture and in Trent:

CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]
This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]

Jim Akins has an interesting article here at CAF on Trent and its relationship to the Lutheran view of Sola Fide.

Then what leads an adult to desire Baptism?

In Catholicism, we have a process called RCIA. Converts to Catholicism enter that process to prepare for Baptism. In that process they willingly begin to live like Christians by obeying the Commandmenst, praying like Christians and essentially changing themselves on the outside by adopting the virtues and ethics of the Catholic.

This simple process proves that works are transformative and justifying. A person who develops holy habits becomes holy by virtue of willingly adopting holy habits.

Do you disagree?

I would disagree that works bring this about, at least initially. The Holy Spirit works not only through Baptism, but the hearing of the word, hence the two parts of the great commission.

And that process is in direct correlation with St. Paul’s statement: “doers of the law are justified.”

Are we capable of being doers of the law without grace?

De, Must go.
I’ll finish later this week.

His peace,
Jon

 

[Cat_Herder]

But look at the context of that passage you quoted: *it’s all about not reverting to the Old Covenant, not doing what I mentioned in my previous post about spurning Christ, etc.

The context is actually a comparison between the covenants. Here is the key part.
"Hebrews 10:28-29:

28Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy ‘on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 29How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

“Those who have spurned the Son of God” here are Christians, not Jews, because the passage clearly states that they were (once) sanctified. Please answer Paul’s question to yourself: what punishment is worse than death? How can Christians be subject to that punishment if “once saved always saved?”

But RCism has the whole “mortal sin” teaching: **

But so does the Bible.
1 John 5.16:

If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that.

Now to understand why mortal sin must be confessed, realize that John says we can pray for non mortal sin–we can ask God to forgive us of that kind of sin ourselves. But if it is mortal sin then we CAN’T just ask God to get us out of it. We need help. See John 20:22-23 to see where that help comes from.

so, what happens if you die suddenly without first having been able to confess and do penance for some mortal sin? *

It’s called perfect contrition, and when you get to heaven you could ask the Good Thief about it.

But when you’re told that mortal sin separates you from God eternally, that is judging right there.

Yes. But it is God who does the judging.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Christ did not die for all people. Otherwise, there would be no hell. And the fact is that sinners remain in this world. But although God the Father loves them, He doesn’t love them as much as He loves those who obey Christ and in so doing become like Christ.

Whoa there, pardner.
Catechism of the Catholic Church #605:

At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

 

[De_Maria]

Whoa there, pardner.

No need to pard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Christ did not die for all people. Otherwise, there would be no hell. And the fact is that sinners remain in this world. But although God the Father loves them, He doesn’t love them as much as He loves those who obey Christ and in so doing become like Christ.

Whoa there, pardner.

No need to.

Based upon your catechism selection below, I suppose you object to my saying that Jesus didn’t die for all men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catechism of the Catholic Church #605
* At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”*

This is what Scripture says:
Hebrews 5:9
And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation.

So, the fact remains that Christ became the cause of salvation for those who obey Him. Not for those who don’t.

How to reconcile the two statements, I don’t know. But we can look around and see that many people still exist today who refuse to accept His Sacrifice. And presumably, many of them will die in that state of animosity towards God.

 

[De_Maria]

Actually, it is worthy of regard.

When I say Reformed, I mean Calvinism.

And you the expert on Catholicism, compared to me. The Lutheran Confessions are quite clear about free will of the regenerate to reject Christ. It is different from the Calvinist TULIP.

Failure to obey His commands are in fact sin. While good works do not in and of themselves save (that is the work of the Christ, the Son of the living God), good works are a required part of the life of the regenerate.

But that verse speaks of the unregenerate.
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, **but the doers of the law shall be **justified.

Doers SHALL be justified. In the future. Sounds to me as in preparation for Baptism.

Jim Akins has an interesting article here at CAF on Trent and its relationship to the Lutheran view of Sola Fide.

I would disagree that works bring this about, at least initially. The Holy Spirit works not only through Baptism, but the hearing of the word, hence the two parts of the great commission.

I agree. And the hearing of the word precedes Baptism:
Romans 10:17
**So then faith cometh by ****hearing, and ****hearing by the word of God.
**

Are we capable of being doers of the law without grace?

No. Grace is first. But grace is first received much before Baptism.

De, Must go.
I’ll finish later this week.

Ok, thanks for the discussion.

Sincerely,

De Maria