Kneel? Stand? What would you do?

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I just don’t want to show any disrespect! During outdoor Mass and the like, I still kneel. There is never too much to do for Our Lord!

God Bless–JMJ
Laura 😉
 
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Asimis:
Oh no, I don’t rely on privet interpretation. Everything I read and the sources from which I learn Catholic Dogma are authoritative. The Catechism, The Bible(Douay-Rheims), the councils, the papal encyclicals, among other highly orthodox Catholic books like Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ott.

I am very clear about everything. The problem Mysty, is that in the RCIA I am goin go, we barely read The Bible, we use NO Catcheism, they don’t talk about Mary, the saints, angels, purgatory, Hell, Heaven, etc. There is no talk about the nature of God, the Trinity, etc. And the topics that we do cover, we so in such a superficial manner as to render their meaning meaningless.

It is VERY watered down, the teaching is also very politicaly correct and considering the fact that it is supposed to be for adults, the material that is given there is childish.

This is not that I am arrogant or anything, it is just how it is on The Church I am going to. It is no wonder why so many no longer believe in transurbanization or the real presence, the instruction is very poor and only those who are really interested in joining keep up for the whole course, others just give up. There is no fire in it, it is as if the instructors don’t believe in it, I don’t like to judge them but it is just how it feels to me.
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I am sorry for your experience, but yes, you are still interpreting these documents yourself. Would anyone recognize any study which had no teacher?

The evidence to me is your attitude regarding the US GIRM—you say it should be done a different way. There is a good reason for instructing converts in the norm.
 
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Fashina86:
I just don’t want to show any disrespect! During outdoor Mass and the like, I still kneel. There is never too much to do for Our Lord!

God Bless–JMJ
Laura 😉
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I wonder if this is a good question for the Apologists. What is the extent of the obedience we are required to give our Pastor? I know we are not required to follow anything against Faith or morals, but what about these questionable, but not serious situations?

RS does make the distinction
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2. Grave Matters

173. Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nos. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.

3. Other Abuses

174. Furthermore, those actions that are brought about which are contrary to the other matters treated elsewhere in this Instruction or in the norms established by law are not to be considered of little account, but are to be numbered among the other abuses to be carefully avoided and corrected.

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Mysty101:
I wonder if this is a good question for the Apologists. What is the extent of the obedience we are required to give our Pastor? I know we are not required to follow anything against Faith or morals, but what about these questionable, but not serious situations?
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There are several times in which bishops and even Popes have turned apostate and strayed from the faith. During the great westerm schism, there were three popes ruling at once, all excomunicating every Catholic that didn’t agree with them.

In those cases what we must do is to adhere to The Church, that is to the dogmas and the traditions, that is what keeps us in communion and inside The Church.

Remember what Paul said: “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed”
 
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Asimis:
There are several times in which bishops and even Popes have turned apostate and strayed from the faith. During the great westerm schism, there were three popes ruling at once, all excomunicating every Catholic that didn’t agree with them.
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Are you saying this is true of your Pastor or Bishop? Please get authentic Spiritual direction.
 
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Mysty101:
Are you saying this is true of your Pastor or Bishop? Please get authentic Spiritual direction.
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I do not judge them. All I am saying is that the RCIA they do is too poor and doesn’t instructs people in the faith. And the NO Mass is subject to many abuses. So, I am glad that I found a TM and also that I found a friend (who has been a Catholic all his life) to help me out and recommend me books, etc.

It has been incredibly helpful and if it had not been by this, I would have probably dropped from the RCIA and given up the entire conversion process.
 
I’d kneel anyway. Our unity comes from our sharing in the Lord, not our posture (or lack thereof!). It is a deeper sign of adoration in the Latin rite to kneel, so I’ll continue to do so. 🙂
 
We have the same problem in Montana, the western diocese is fine except Missula, but the eastern diocese all stand, but we kneel anyway. It is our God up there so we should almost kneel all the time after He is consicrated. We sould be on our knees the whole time we are in the church and he is in the tabernacle.
 
A&O:
I’d kneel anyway. Our unity comes from our sharing in the Lord, not our posture (or lack thereof!). It is a deeper sign of adoration in the Latin rite to kneel, so I’ll continue to do so. 🙂
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and
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alterserver_07:
We have the same problem in Montana, the western diocese is fine except Missula, but the eastern diocese all stand, but we kneel anyway. It is our God up there so we should almost kneel all the time after He is consicrated. We sould be on our knees the whole time we are in the church and he is in the tabernacle.
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GIRM 42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

43…In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.
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Which is the higher priority your interpretation or that of your Pastor? If you cannot respect your Pastor’s authority, perhaps it’s time to change parishes.
(And if that is not possible, the proper method of change would be to work for change and obey in the process, unless it was a serious offense.)
 
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Mysty101:
Which is the higher priority your interpretation or that of your Pastor? If you cannot respect your Pastor’s authority, perhaps it’s time to change parishes.
(And if that is not possible, the proper method of change would be to work for change and obey in the process, unless it was a serious offense.)
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👋 Hello Mysty,

I don’t place my interpretation over the authority of my pastor, he seems to be very supportive of kneeling (or at least tolerant). My parish kneels when appropriate.

If I visit a parish where people do not kneel, I trust they will understand that I am following my local custom and the GIRM. While a common posture may be a symbol of unity, that common posture includes kneeling at the correct time.
If a parish refuses to be ‘in unity’ with the Church by standing, that’s something they should work out.
 
Hi,

This, of course is your choice. And I certainly agree that neither option is what we wish. I believe we are to respect the customs in the Parish we attend, but again this is your choice, and we are certainly not speaking of a sinful situation.

What if you attended a Parish where the people stand for one of the reasons mentioned? (space, health, etc. also “another good rason”) How would you know the reason for standing? A good guest would follow the instructions of their host.
 
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Mysty101:
I believe we are to respect the customs in the Parish we attend, but again this is your choice, and we are certainly not speaking of a sinful situation.
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Knowing full well that we are to stand, we’re not sinning if we choose to respect the customs of the parish? :hmmm: Just curious.
 
The Vatican and the Holy see from what I have been reading are fed up with complaints from parishoners denied the Eucharist, in the Year of the Eucharist by over zealous liberal Bishops who have an agenda of Protestanizing the mass and the denial of the Real presence. The following is a response from the Holy See as posted on EWTN and I wonder why this thread continues to flourish over and over

ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling_for_communion.htm
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sweetchuck:
Just trying to get a group opinion on what the proper course of action would be. Many Catholic Churches have been very liberalized where I live. Two of the four in my county don’t even have kneelers. If you were in my position, if you were to go to one of the churches without kneelers, what would you do? (for the sake of the argument, going to one of the churches that does have kneelers is not an option for a particular day, nor is it for me because of varying daily mass schedules. I go to any one of the four, depending on the schedule.)

This is a private poll.
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Mysty101:
Check RS for grave matters. It has been posted a few times
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Maybe I should know, but what does RS stand for? Redemptionis Sacramentum? I ask because I’ve read through much of it, and it didn’t answer my question, at least not the sections I read.
 
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MooCowSteph:
Maybe I should know, but what does RS stand for? Redemptionis Sacramentum? I ask because I’ve read through much of it, and it didn’t answer my question, at least not the sections I read.
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Hi,
Sorry to be abrupt, but the disrespect for the USCCB on this board lately has really tested my patience.

You are correct about RS—near the end is a section listing grave abuses.
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**2. Grave Matters
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173.**
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Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist: namely, anything that contravenes what is set out above in nos. 48-52, 56, 76-77, 79, 91-92, 94, 96, 101-102, 104, 106, 109, 111, 115, 117, 126, 131-133, 138, 153 and 168. Moreover, attention should be given to the other prescriptions of the Code of Canon Law, and especially what is laid down by canons 1364, 1369, 1373, 1376, 1380, 1384, 1385, 1386, and 1398.
**

Most abuses are committed by those in charge, so I wouldn’t worry about sinfullness, although I would change Parishes, if possible, if I noticed serious abuses.

I once spoke to a quite conservative priest, and he was not quite certain what you should do, if your pastor instructed you to do something outside of the rubrics of the Mass. We are called to obey, except in matters against Faith or Morals, so I believe we are called to obey, and question first the Pastor, and then over him, if we get no satisfaction.

**
184.
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Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

**
 
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A&O:
If I visit a parish where people do not kneel, I trust they will understand that I am following my local custom and the GIRM. While a common posture may be a symbol of unity, that common posture includes kneeling at the correct time.
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CHRSITOS VOSKRES!
VO ISTINU VOSKRES!
And if you happen to visit my Byzantine Ruthenian parish, we **STAND FROM PASKA (EASTER) UNTIL PENTECOST! 😃 **

**THIS OUR TRADITION!:yup: **

If you try to kneel, you will asked to stand and then TOLD to stand!👍

You are in **OUR CHURCH **and you will **RESPECT AND HONOR OUR TRADITIONS AND CUSTOMS!:yup: **

We’ve had SSPX’ers and other “whackos” come to our Divine Liturgy and try to pull “stunts” like this because they didn’t like our customs and traditions. We’ve taken care of them quite efficently. :clapping:
 
I would stand but bow when the priest genuflects.

That is how we do it at my church. Not every seat in my church has kneelers so we chose a uniform posture and decided to stand throughout the Eucharistic Prayer and do a profound bow when the priest genuflects after consecrating the bread and wine.

Kudos to the Byzantines!!! Please folks, try to prevent another schism if you can.
 
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pprimeau1976:
That is how we do it at my church. Not every seat in my church has kneelers so we chose a uniform posture and decided to stand throughout the Eucharistic Prayer and do a profound bow when the priest genuflects after consecrating the bread and wine.
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Why should it matter if there are kneelers or not? I have been to Europe many times and the cathedrals there generally do not have kneelers, but the people still manage to kneel for the consecration on the marble floors.

I have also been watching many of the masses offered for our Holy Father from Rome on EWTN, the deacons and the faithful manage to kneel on the floor during these Masses as well.

People in the US are so obsessed with comfort and the community aspect of Mass and postures that IMO we are losing, or in many cases, already lost respect and reverence for the Holy Eucharist.
 
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