Kneelers: were they removed from your church? Reinstalled? Never had them?
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mizznicole
Guest
When my former parish was being renovated (it was a Cathedral), the vast majority of the congregation kneeled during the Eucharistic prayer. And this was on very uncomfortable, hard marble flooring. It was really beautiful and impressive.
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Vittorio23
Guest
My home parish has kneelers, though I can’t say whether or not that has always been the case. I believe so.
The Church here at school is very beautiful- high altar, side altars, beautiful art, etc. There are kneelers.
The Chapel here at school is small and with chairs; so there are no kneelers. However, everyone kneels regardless.
I have only been to two Churches that did not have kneelers. One was a Maronite parish that had taken over an older Protestant church that was built originally without kneelers. Everyone knelt anyways. The other is the Church up here at the Grotto- it has kneelers for about the first three pews, but no kneelers for the rest. I’m not sure why… everyone kneels regardless.
I have also been to a Church where there are kneelers, but no one knelt? That was an oddity.
The Church here at school is very beautiful- high altar, side altars, beautiful art, etc. There are kneelers.
The Chapel here at school is small and with chairs; so there are no kneelers. However, everyone kneels regardless.
I have only been to two Churches that did not have kneelers. One was a Maronite parish that had taken over an older Protestant church that was built originally without kneelers. Everyone knelt anyways. The other is the Church up here at the Grotto- it has kneelers for about the first three pews, but no kneelers for the rest. I’m not sure why… everyone kneels regardless.
I have also been to a Church where there are kneelers, but no one knelt? That was an oddity.
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drafdog
Guest
My parish church was designed without kneelers. As we are a growing congregation, we cannot afford to lose the seating capacity that would result from renovating the nave to include kneelers. Furthermore, the design of the building is such that expansion of the building itself will be almost impossible. Our only hope is to break off smaller parishes from our current area in order to reduce the size of the congregation to the point that removing the existing pews and putting in pews with kneelers would be possible. Suffice it to say that will not likely happen.
On another note: Cardinal Deardon of Detroit once remarked in commenting on the feeding of the multitude (cf. Lk 9) that the grouping of the crowd into parties of 50 families was because that is the optimum number of families to be served by a single priest. Perhaps one day we will have sufficient priests to have that kind of ratio.
Matthew
On another note: Cardinal Deardon of Detroit once remarked in commenting on the feeding of the multitude (cf. Lk 9) that the grouping of the crowd into parties of 50 families was because that is the optimum number of families to be served by a single priest. Perhaps one day we will have sufficient priests to have that kind of ratio.
Matthew
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Lepanto
Guest
For those without kneelers…lack of money and space may just be cover reasons why the church does not have kneelers.
But I’m curious: have you ever heard a priest (or anybody else) give a theological reason for the absence of kneelers?
But I’m curious: have you ever heard a priest (or anybody else) give a theological reason for the absence of kneelers?
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the_phoenix
Guest
- At my home parish (English-language Mass):
- At my downtown Latin Mass parish:
~~ the phoenix
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acadian
Guest
My church has kneelers, always has, and hopefully always will.
For several years, I attended a parish that was in a “temporary” building with movable chairs and no kneelers. We always stood during the Eucharistic prayer and sat after communion. I think if we would have knelt, our faces would have been smack against the chair in front of us. When they finally built their permanent church, it had kneelers.
For several years, I attended a parish that was in a “temporary” building with movable chairs and no kneelers. We always stood during the Eucharistic prayer and sat after communion. I think if we would have knelt, our faces would have been smack against the chair in front of us. When they finally built their permanent church, it had kneelers.
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DJgang
Guest
I am curious as well.
I really can not imagine a Catholic Church without kneelers. I am fortunate to attend a church that was built in the 1800’s lovely high ceilings, lots of stained glass and full of beautiful statues…and then to NOT have kneelers, I think would be horrible…every time I walk into the church, I thank God for it’s beauty.
I don’t understand…isn’t Kneel Here in the Missal, part of the service…how can a church not have kneelers?
If I did attend one without them, I think that I would be tempted to purchase a kneeling pad for myself…stick it in my huge diaper bag…
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SeekerJen
Guest
I’ve never belonged to a parish that didn’t have kneelers. Even when our parish took out the communion rail and rearranged things to fit in more pews at the front, those pews came with attached kneelers.
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Patchunky
Guest
Probably because the 7th Council of Nicea forbade kneeling on Sundays for the celebration of Divine Services and also forbade kneeling at all from Easter until Pentecost.
This was in the 8th century…
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Lepanto
Guest
That’s interesting. I never heard this. I would be surprised to find that Nicea dealt with any liturgical matters. Can you please cite the pertinent document that shows this?
And even if Nicea did say this, later disciplines were enacted, at least in the West, which obligated kneeling at certain points of the Mass. The current GIRM requires kneeling, for example.
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John_Wallace
Guest
My church has no kneelers and no pews - only chairs arranged in a circle around the altar. I have heard many excuses for their absence, such as there is a plan to build a chapel, but there is no money right now and the priority was to build the hall. I know this is a crock, because this is a very wealthy parish and was established 10 years ago - 10 years and the can’t see fit to put in facilities for proper worship!
My question for the forum is this - should I (and my family) just start to kneel on the floor after the Sanctus and after the Agnus Dei? When else should I kneel (I typically also kneel in private prayer before Mass and after Communion)? How visible should I make myself (front row?) and what do I say to people when they say I don’t have to kneel? Obviously I think it would be nice if this started to catch on.
Is there anything else I should do?
My question for the forum is this - should I (and my family) just start to kneel on the floor after the Sanctus and after the Agnus Dei? When else should I kneel (I typically also kneel in private prayer before Mass and after Communion)? How visible should I make myself (front row?) and what do I say to people when they say I don’t have to kneel? Obviously I think it would be nice if this started to catch on.
Is there anything else I should do?
I don’t know about the absence of kneelers but if I understand correctly, the bishop of the Monterey diocese in California back in the late 1970’s requested that everyone stand during the Eucharistic Prayer (in Latin rite parishes).
I knew quite a few seminarians back in the 1970’s. Many of them are the 50 and 60 year old priests of today. At least in Southern California, the liturgical practices in the seminary were very traditional but the overall atmosphere (and the pervading secular culture) promoted exploration of ‘cultures’ other than one’s own, particularly eastern ways of thinking. One of the common forms of ‘liturgical exploration’ was to pull certain Eastern Catholic traditions into Western Catholic liturgies to ‘wake’ people up and make them think about why they were doing what they were doing. The seminarians I knew all seemed to think that an important element of liturgies was that they shake people out of complacency. Standing during the Eucharistic prayer was a shake-up practice borrowed from the Eastern Church that was frequently proposed to 1970s seminarians.
The priests that bought into standing, (because it meant something to them personally), are the ones who typically had their parishes remove the kneelers during renovation or never bothered to have them installed in new churches.
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Patchunky
Guest
It was the 1st Council of Nicea in 325AD and it’s Canon 20…
I was thinking of something else when I stated the 7th Council of Nicea…
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Lepanto
Guest
Yes, the faithful are obligated to kneel at certain points of the Mass, regardless of the presence or absence of kneelers. It’s great if you have kneelers, otherwise just kneel on the floor.
The GIRM is what tells us when to kneel, but says nothing about kneelers. For example, Article 43, paragraph 3 says:
“In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.”
usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
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Daprato
Guest
They kneel in the Diocese of Monterey, CA.
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Brendan
Guest
So did they also involve the veneration of icons before Mass, ornate vestments, chanting the entire liturgy using traditional tones and copious use of bells and incense, or did they just pick the parts they liked
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TMC
Guest
This made me remember that I used to regularly attend somewhere that stood during the Eucharistic Prayer. I am trying to remember where. As I mentioned before, I have attended Mass at a number of chapel-type facilities that were not designed for Catholic Mass and had no kneelers. But I also seem to recall standing at some Masses and having been told it was local practice. Probably San Diego county in the 90’s, but I have bounced around to so many parishes I am not sure anymore. I always thought standing was OK. It is in some ways less reverent, but it is also more attentive. One practical point - kids have a habit of dozing off when kneeling so as a parent it can be tough to focus on the Eucharist Prayer and bird dog the kids at the same time. (not saying that is a reason to change the practice, just something I remember).
I’m not surprised that they kneel today. In many places the mindset of the sixties and seventies has run it’s course.
Definitely pick and chose.So did they also involve the veneration of icons before Mass, ornate vestments, chanting the entire liturgy using traditional tones and copious use of bells and incense, or did they just pick the parts they liked
Standing seemed simple. Mysterious traditions (icons, bells, chanting) had to be borrowed from* NON*-Catholic religions to be acceptable.I suspect the priests I know of today who insist on practices like standing instead of kneeling are the ones who wanted to do so in the seventies but weren’t allowed to do so (by seminary rules, senior pastors, etc.) Now that they have their own parish they are getting to do what they want. Fortunately not all priests have that attitude.
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