Kneelers: were they removed from your church? Reinstalled? Never had them?

[Brian_C]

I wholly want to believe that and DO believe they will, but…I am kinda wondering if it’s going to take the celebrant reminding them.

Brian,

Hopefully old habits die hard and when your church is renovated they will all return to kneeling. In my experiences I’ve been to masses in auditoriums and convention centers where kneeling was impossible due to space constraints and most of the people around me sat or half-kneeled, yet the ones from my parish were back on the kneelers the next Sunday in church. You’ll have to let us know how things turn out at your parish.

ChadS

 

[TraderTif]

I can only think of one local parish without kneelers. And that’s because they actually use a United Church of Christ building. (It’s very, very tiny, and I don’t think they could afford to build their own parish.) The Catholic mass is on Saturdays, and the UCC service is on Sundays.

It’s a very tiny building, and the pews (which hold 4 people each) are crammed very close together. Plus, they’re solid on the bottoms, so you really can’t kneel because your legs won’t fit. And there’s not enough aisle space if everyone tried kneeling elsewhere.

Still, they have a very nice, and reverent mass, given their limitations. (No tabernacle obviously, and very little decoration.) They do have some of the tiniest stations of the cross I’ve ever seen, going all around.

 

[MustangBoop]

I’ve never been to a Catholic church without kneelers. Our church has padded kneelers and pews. The only time we were without kneelers, was when the pews were sent out to be reupholstered. Then we had folding chairs.

 

[brigid12]

I’ve never been to a Catholic church without kneelers.

Amazing! Practically the only churches that have them, around here, are older ones that were probably built over 40 years ago. Even in those older ones the practice is not to kneel at anytime anyway. I’ve even come across two churches that are old enough to still have communion rails (one of those is a state historical site, tho). No action at all has happened with the MP and the Bishop has said publically that he doesn’t want any priests from elsewhere in his diocese saying the TLM. Often, not always, the reverence level here is negligible and many of the priests seem more at ease with folk music and we have some very colorful chasubles. I may have grown up in the 50s and 60s but I never got that hippy appreciation.

 

[Phemie]

*]The GIRM you cite is the current one, which was not in place when most of these churches were built. I’d be interested in hearing what the previous GIRM said about this issue - it may not have addressed this as explicitly.

The last GIRM, at least the Canadian version, had the exact same wording.

Our church is around 40 years old and has always had kneelers. There was a push by a few people (pastoral assistant and diocesan catechetical coordinator) a few years ago to have them removed but when the congregation was polled there was a resounding NO to that.

The coordinator still managed to get the priest to announce that we were no longer to kneel for consecration or after communion. The Council of Nicea was the reason given. There are still some who do but most of the congregation doesn’t. When people complained to the Bishop he told them that as long as the priest had been the one to make the announcement we were to listen.

We’ve had 2 pastors since and they didn’t change anything. The latest one (who has stated that he’s here until he dies and he’s only 60) doesn’t even bother to genuflect at consecration, he just bows. Rubrics mean nothing to him. Neither do the documents that I regularly put on his desk – he refuses to read them.

 

[ChadS]

We’ve had 2 pastors since and they didn’t change anything. The latest one (who has stated that he’s here until he dies and he’s only 60) doesn’t even bother to genuflect at consecration, he just bows. Rubrics mean nothing to him. Neither do the documents that I regularly put on his desk – he refuses to read them.

Phemie,

Is it possible your priest may have a knee or hip ailment that nobody knows about which prevents him kneeling due to great pain? While 60 isn’t very old now it isn’t young enough to unreasonably expect that some sort problem may have crept in by now.

I’ve seen priests who haven’t kneeled before and my first thought is never that he is being disobedient only that he must have a good reason for not doing things the proper way.

ChadS

 

[Phemie]

Phemie,

Is it possible your priest may have a knee or hip ailment that nobody knows about which prevents him kneeling due to great pain? While 60 isn’t very old now it isn’t young enough to unreasonably expect that some sort problem may have crept in by now.

I’ve seen priests who haven’t kneeled before and my first thought is never that he is being disobedient only that he must have a good reason for not doing things the proper way.

ChadS

No, he’s just one of those unorthodox priests who thinks rubrics were written to give the red ink makers work. He won’t commune first but hands the ciborium around to the EMHCs like a candy dish from which they help themselves, then he eats the Body of Christ at the same time they do. He refuses to purify the vessels, he refuses to sit in the confessional for 30 minutes so people who want to confess have to go get him.

He really wants to be a teacher, not a pastor, so he substitutes as much as he can in our local school board. That means he’s often unavailable during the day since he teaches in another community.

 

[Werman]

Our Kneelers were not removed from our church. However there was talk of removing the pews and replacing them with folding chairs. This became a insurance problem - What chairs we do use must have the ability to connect to one another.

We do more standing during certain parts of the Mass.

We no longer have the Baptism down by the Alter. We now all get up and walk to a Baptismal pool similar to a Hot Tub where the ceremony takes place with us standing.

No doubt the standing may wake a few up from our comfort zones and zzzzzzzzzzz.

Werman

 

[mborsey]

I have never been to a church without kneelers, however I attended Mass at a church with kneelers where the priest got up and announced that at this church everyone stands through the service. Doesn’t seem right to me.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Kneelers: were they removed from your church?

Never had them?

Were they reinstalled at some point, or perhaps retrofitted into a church that never had them?

Did your priest (or anybody else) ever teach on the importance of having kneelers? Or perhaps teach on why they are not important?

How did you and the people react to any of the above?

When I reverted to the faith, about 3 years ago, the parish that I became a part of did not have kneelers, even though the church is quite old. The kneelers were removed about 10 years ago. Well, it was no big deal to me, even though the first time attending I did find it odd.

It wasn’t until my re-AWAKENING into the faith that I understood what kneeling meant. Kneelers are not necessary; true, they make it easier, but we are to kneel regardless as long as our body can take it. In that case, kneelers are necessary.

I and about 4 others in my parish kneel during those prescribed parts of Mass. One of the older ladies that does kneel, who I’m becoming more and more friendly with, said she asked the pastor when he’s going to bring the kneelers back, and he said something to the effect of, “whenever you can afford them.”

I asked her what happened to them and she said she didn’t know, but her 90 year old, long time parishoner, mother-in-law probably does, and she’d ask her. The next time I see her I’m going to ask for an update. The lady seems to think that the kneelers were given to an individual and that individual stills has them, in which case I’'m going to offer to reinstall them free of charge. Then the only issue would be getting the people to use them.

 

[Cristiano]

The last time that I was in a church without kneelers it was in the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome. We used plastic chairs.

Only a fraction of the Basilica’s floor plan has pews.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

One parish I attended was the wealthiest parish in that town. It had stackable, padded chairs with no kneelers, and although the carpet was very soft, the pastor would not allow anyone to kneel. We were to bow when he did after the Consecration, but if someone knelt, he would tell them from the altar to stand. This parish could afford anything it wanted, but they didn’t have a single statue.

Contrast this with a parish I visited in a poor suburb of a large Mexican city. At that time, the building was still under construction. There was no floor but dirt and no ceiling. There was no bell, but the neighborhood was alerted by means of powerful bottle rockets. Before Mass, parishioners brought beautiful lace altar linens, a gold-plated and jeweled chalice, and a folding table to the site. In this poor neighborhood, people wore their finest clothes and, during the Consecration, knelt on the muddy dirt floor.

 

[Werman]

One parish I attended was the wealthiest parish in that town. It had stackable, padded chairs with no kneelers, and although the carpet was very soft, the pastor would not allow anyone to kneel. We were to bow when he did after the Consecration, but if someone knelt, he would tell them from the altar to stand. This parish could afford anything it wanted, but they didn’t have a single statue.

Contrast this with a parish I visited in a poor suburb of a large Mexican city. At that time, the building was still under construction. There was no floor but dirt and no ceiling. There was no bell, but the neighborhood was alerted by means of powerful bottle rockets. Before Mass, parishioners brought beautiful lace altar linens, a gold-plated and jeweled chalice, and a folding table to the site. In this poor neighborhood, people wore their finest clothes and, during the Consecration, knelt on the muddy dirt floor.

We have become spoiled in many ways because of our wealth. We do hang to our comfort zones and beauty of treasures as well as our own money.

Your post reminded me of the inventions of the past to get parishioners to donate as much of their wealth as possible. The inventions were much like the mechanical children’s banks only on a much larger scale. They used water and sand with most of these mechanical devices to make it all appear to be by the grace of God that a door opened or water came from the device.

In many religions kneeling on the floor or sitting on the floor is the proper thing to do. However what ever we do should come from the heart and soul for love of God. To much of the time gifts to church and/or God are for the wrong reasons.

My mother used to tell me - “Son you can pray in a dark closet and God will hear you.” I think he has!

I know this forum is about the kneelers, but at least for me God is not the only thing that brings me to church. It is nice to kneel or stand as a group. After Mass to enjoy the extension of the Mass over a cup of coffee and yes donuts with much conversation.

Sorry for my ramble

 

[MustangBoop]

PS to my post. The week-day Masses are celebrated in the chapel. There aren’t any kneelers or pews in there. They have chairs and most people kneel anyway.

Q. I can’t kneel because of my back so I sit or stand through the Mass. After I receive communion, I stand till the alter is cleared off. Is that okay? Yvonne

 

[turtle18]

I went to a Vietnamese Mass the other day. There were no kneelers (seems the Church may not be able to afford them) and then the entire congregation of Vietnamese immigrants knelt on the floor during the Eucharistic prayer. I really admire the devotion of these people.
Some of the more serious religious orders also don’t put the cushioning down on the kneelers in their chapels, they are just wood. This is quite painful.

 

[Werman]

PS to my post. The week-day Masses are celebrated in the chapel. There aren’t any kneelers or pews in there. They have chairs and most people kneel anyway.

Q. I can’t kneel because of my back so I sit or stand through the Mass. After I receive communion, I stand till the alter is cleared off. Is that okay? Yvonne

I believe what ever you may do is in reverence to our God and self should be acceptable.

Werman

 

[dantept]

I stumbled upon this thread while doing a search related to pews and kneelers. As an architect with some knowledge of church history and documents, permit me to offer the following:

• Until the 4th century, Mass was conducted in private homes. Pews and kneelers were unlikely - I am unaware of any historic evidence of such.
• When Masses were moved to “church buildings,” there were no pews. People stood and even moved to different areas of the church according to the liturgy. There were perimeter benches for those who could not stand.
• Pews are a Protestant “invention,” providing a place to sit for extended periods as their liturgy placed an emphasis on the word.
• I do not know when the kneeler became ubiquitous in Catholic (and Anglican) churches; however, previous contributors have correctly noted that the last 2 GIRMs direct kneeling (if possible) during certain phases of the Mass. What they have not noted is that this is a modification to the universal GIRM by the US National Conference of Catholic Bishops (often not enforced). The basic, universal GIRM provides for standing and sitting, but does not mandate kneeling. Note that the canon refers to “standing before You.”
• Personally, I have no objection to kneeling (on padded kneelers!); however, my objection is to the less-than reverential ambience that results from the racket made by hinged kneelers being moved (usually kicked) up or down!

 

[Newbie2]

See, the excuse they give is that GIRM 43 says “In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.” Then, they build a church with no kneelers. Then they say: “Oh! No kneelers! We won’t kneel, then, and we have a good reason!”

We have kneelers in our Church, (or at least we normally do). We’re in the midst of a parish exansion, and are celebrating Mass in the the parish hall.

There are no kneelers there, everyone kneels on the floor instead.

The parishes that do not have kneelers ( leftovers from Cardinal Dearden’s era) are required (by Cardinal Maida) to put in kneelers if they undergo renovations.

They’re not all from that era, Brendan…St. James in Novi (1993) was built with chairs without kneelers. Originally, they probably could have been fit with them, but the rows are now too close together to install them.

The hardest kneelers I have ever experienced are at the St. John’s Abby Church. Very hard wood with no padding.

Penance! Ouch.

Personally, I can’t kneel for more than a couple of minutes before I start to get back spasms, so I really don’t miss them, but I sympathize with those who want to kneel and have to do it on a hard floor.

 

[musicmantg11]

My home parish has kneelers in it. Padded kneelers and padded pews. A long time ago they just had unpadded pews with no kneelers. They moved 5 of the old pews upstairs where our choir is.

 

[Phemie]

Our church dates back to the late 60s and it has always had kneelers though there was a move afoot to take them out a few years ago. That move was put to a parish vote and defeated. AMEN!

The Basilica 6 hours down the road also has kneelers but the parish 7 minutes away from the Basilica has chairs and no kneelers.