Kneeling -- a New Twist

[Pariah_Pirana]

I have been an adult altar server at my parish for quite some time. The person in charge of scheduling and “training” altar servers said when serving, we could no longer kneel during the consecration, based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of a priest from another parish who claims to be a “liturgical specialist” (go figure…)

What?!? This is simply not right. I’m not infirm and there is plenty of space to kneel in the sanctuary in a very unobtrusive manner. After disregarding her directive I was eventually precluded from serving for a few months, but was recently placed back on the schedule – all without even a simple discussion or explanation, although the pastor finally said that kneeling was OK by him!

What hit me is that people often watch the altar server in order to assume the correct posture during Masses at funerals and weddings. I have seen an entire church of people standing until I knelt – then they followed suit.

Why would anyone try to go through so much trouble to keep altar servers from kneeling? This is creepy…

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

I have been an adult altar server at my parish for quite some time. The person in charge of scheduling and “training” altar servers said when serving, we could no longer kneel during the consecration, based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of a priest from another parish who claims to be a “liturgical specialist” (go figure…)

What?!? This is simply not right. I’m not infirm and there is plenty of space to kneel in the sanctuary in a very unobtrusive manner. After disregarding her directive I was eventually precluded from serving for a few months, but was recently placed back on the schedule – all without even a simple discussion or explanation, although the pastor finally said that kneeling was OK by him!

What hit me is that people often watch the altar server in order to assume the correct posture during Masses at funerals and weddings. I have seen an entire church of people standing until I knelt – then they followed suit.

Why would anyone try to go through so much trouble to keep altar servers from kneeling? This is creepy…

God Bless you for serving!
Why would anyone go through such problems? You’re right, it’s creepy. What is creepier is that you were excluded. Wht is this person doing?

 

[Milliardo]

Another one of those abuses, and people who think they can just barge in and think they have it better than the Church. Bless you for sticking up to it, and keep on demanding for an explanation as well as forum to air your side. Perhaps that will bring them back to their senses.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

I’ll admit that I was horribly irratated in private. But it finally hit me. I couldn’t serve if I was forced to stand anyway, so I just offered the irratation up to God and did my best to foget about it.

Within about 90 days I was restored to active status as a server – without an effort on my part and without an explanation (or apology) on her part.

 

[kmktexas]

We had a similar situation at our parish. The DRE (who also trains altar servers) would actually tap the servers on the shoulder during the consecration and tell them to stand up. Our church has no kneelers but has a step up to the sanctuary so the altar servers are the ones MOST able to kneel. One of the parents got out the GIRM instructions and took them to Father. Luckily that was the end of it and they all kneel now.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

kmktexas:

We had a similar situation at our parish. The DRE (who also trains altar servers) would actually tap the servers on the shoulder during the consecration and tell them to stand up. Our church has no kneelers but has a step up to the sanctuary so the altar servers are the ones MOST able to kneel. One of the parents got out the GIRM instructions and took them to Father. Luckily that was the end of it and they all kneel now.

What I wonder about is if this is a product of ignorance of what the Church directs and/or innate stupidity, or is it something far graver like the effects of Satan?

I really cannot see how a properly prepared DRE could make such a mistake…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

God Bless you for serving!
Why would anyone go through such problems? You’re right, it’s creepy. What is creepier is that you were excluded. Wht is this person doing?

I have a very important (to me) follow-up question. I have made my peace with this person. I have forgiven her and don’t harbor any grudges.

At the same time, I do my best to avoid this person. I just don’t want to get caught-up in this sort of malarky again. If I was ever told to do something wrong again, I would ignore her and insist that we have the discussion in front of our pastor.

It’s very creepy even talking to people like her, given how she has treated others – in a Christian environment no less. Something is amiss and it sorta scares me…

 

[JoeMike]

Pariah Pirana:

What I wonder about is if this is a product of ignorance of what the Church directs and/or innate stupidity, or is it something far graver like the effects of satan?

I really cannot see how a properly prepared DRE could make such a mistake…

That was my first thought.

If I were trying to destroy the Catholic Church, I’d do the same thing: start with the small details. Once those are ruined, the rest will crumble by itself.

 

[benedictusoblat]

Sounds like the priest should take over directing the servers. If he isn’t trained adequately for the job you’re in real trouble.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

benedictusoblat:

Sounds like the priest should take over directing the servers. If he isn’t trained adequately for the job you’re in real trouble.

She’s quite hands-off now. She tried to confront me about a non-issue about a month ago and I just walked away. Extremely creepy to say the least. With any luck she’ll complain to the pastor and I’ll be able to lay out my concerns in front of him with her in the room.

 

[benedictusoblat]

Pariah -

I just noticed your location “Vatican City”. Your pastor isn’t Benedict XVI is it?

Benedictusoblatus

 

[Fortiterinre]

This type of liturgical agenda is far from accidental. Good for you for standing up to it!

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Fortiterinre:

This type of liturgical agenda is far from accidental. Good for you for standing up to it!

I honestly wish I understood the genesis of this sorta stuff. It began after another priest in the diocese gave a “seminar” for the “liturgy committee.” This priest is a serious problem AND a consultor to the bishop. Thank God the bishop is retiring soon.

It was really difficult to remain firm until I finally realized the alternative – standing in the sanctuary during the consecration. After that it was pretty easy.

 

[KennySe]

A+ to your for sticking with the norms of the Holy Mass!!

Now, you might consider printing out “Redemptionis Sacramentum” for a possible future discussion on other matters.

And, be sure to state with charity that your intention is to follow the rubrics of the Mass, and that you request official Church documentation for any “innovations”.

 

[JimG]

This is somewhat amazing to me. Altar servers standing during the consecration?

We have always had kneelers for the servers at the side of the sanctuary. Lately we have gone to small kneeling pads just in front of the altar rail (yes, altar rail), so the servers can kneel facing the altar, and ring the bells at the appropriate time.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

KennySe:

A+ to your for sticking with the norms of the Holy Mass!!

Now, you might consider printing out “Redemptionis Sacramentum” for a possible future discussion on other matters.

And, be sure to state with charity that your intention is to follow the rubrics of the Mass, and that you request official Church documentation for any “innovations”.

It’s not that easy. I’m not doing a good job of explaining this. Referencing the GIRM or RS only creates anger with people like her. Even though they are non-issues in my case, she’ll note that people can stand due to an infirmity or a lack of space, etc.

From there she’ll extrapolate that because we don’t have kneelers for the altar servers (which is no big dreal), they shouldn’t be required to kneel. And if there is more than one altar server per Mass, perhaps only one wants to kneel and that would be unfair to the others because they too would have to kneel of risk looking like morons.

From there she and others will then sell the pastor on the idea of directing the servers to stand. It takes a big blow-up (like the one I created) for things to change.

I dunno. This who thing has a very creepy feel to it…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

JimG:

This is somewhat amazing to me. Altar servers standing during the consecration?

We have always had kneelers for the servers at the side of the sanctuary. Lately we have gone to small kneeling pads just in front of the altar rail (yes, altar rail), so the servers can kneel facing the altar, and ring the bells at the appropriate time.

A great deal of this stems from a very questionable individual who for a very long time referred to himself as an “acolyte” and “para-priest.” A great deal of the abuse he brough to our Mass continues to exist. It’s chilling to think that’s he’s now in a formation to be a deacon…

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Pariah Pirana:

It’s not that easy. I’m not doing a good job of explaining this. Referencing the GIRM or RS only creates anger with people like her.

That’s because she is refusing to follow the rightful authority of the Church. It’s about pride, power, and politics with her. She’s following an agenda, and it is not in sync with the Church’s agenda, from the sound of it.

Even though they are non-issues in my case, she’ll note that people can stand due to an infirmity or a lack of space, etc.

But she won’t be able to force you to stand. She’ll be speaking of the the people in the pews, not those in the sanctuary.

From there she’ll extrapolate that because we don’t have kneelers for the altar servers (which is no big dreal), they shouldn’t be required to kneel. And if there is more than one altar server per Mass, perhaps only one wants to kneel and that would be unfair to the others because they too would have to kneel of risk looking like morons.

And they would look like morons if they all stood during the consecration anyway, no???

From there she and others will then sell the pastor on the idea of directing the servers to stand.

It should be a hard sell, if the pastor has the documentation directing otherwise.

It takes a big blow-up (like the one I created) for things to change.

Really? Did you create a big blow up? Or did the “liturgist”?

I dunno. This who thing has a very creepy feel to it…

As well it should. Your sense of the sacred (and the sensibilities of the faithful) are being toyed with.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Here is a little more help. The Vatican officials have known about the attempts to dilute the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass for quite some time.

Pope John Paul II, in the foreward of Inaestimabile Donum, approved in 1980, stated:But these encouraging and positive aspects cannot suppress concern at the varied and frequent abuses being reported from different parts of the Catholic world: the confusion of roles, especially regarding the priestly ministry and the role of the laity (indiscriminate shared recitation of the Eucharistic Prayer, homilies given by lay people, lay people distributing Communion while the priests refrain from doing so); an increasing loss of the sense of the sacred (abandonment of liturgical vestments, the Eucharist celebrated outside church without real need, lack of reverence and respect for the Blessed Sacrament, etc.); misunderstanding of the ecclesial character of the Liturgy (the use of private texts, the proliferation of unapproved Eucharistic Prayers, the manipulation of the liturgical texts for social and political ends). In these cases we are face to face with a real falsification of the Catholic Liturgy: "One who offers worship to God on the Church’s behalf in a way contrary to that which is laid down by the Church with God-given authority and which is customary in the Church is guilty of falsification."

None of these things can bring good results. The consequences are – and cannot fail to be – the impairing of the unity of Faith and worship in the Church, doctrinal uncertainty, scandal and bewilderment among the People of God, and the near inevitability of violent reactions.

The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy, which means the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church, which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful. The use of unauthorized texts means a loss of the necessary connection between the lex orandi and the lex credendi. The Second Vatican Council’s admonition in this regard must be remembered: “No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority.” And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."

(My emphasis added.) So, you see, your pastor should take your concerns very seriously, as the Holy Father certainly did make his concerns clear over 25 years ago!

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Panis Angelicas:

That’s because she is refusing to follow the rightful authority of the Church. It’s about pride, power, and politics with her. She’s following an agenda, and it is not in sync with the Church’s agenda, from the sound of it.
But she won’t be able to force you to stand. She’ll be speaking of the the people in the pews, not those in the sanctuary.

And they would look like morons if they all stood during the consecration anyway, no???

It should be a hard sell, if the pastor has the documentation directing otherwise.
Really? Did you create a big blow up? Or did the “liturgist”?

As well it should. Your sense of the sacred (and the sensibilities of the faithful) are being toyed with.

No, she cannot force me to stand, but she did preclude me from being an altar server at her own whim.

No “hard sell” needed. All the pastor wants to do is try to keep peace – documentation or no documentation.

I refused to listen to her. When she precluded me from the schedule I sent her a letter with a copy to the pastor. That was likely the “blow-up” that allowed me to be reinstated.