Kneeling after agnus dei

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Lormar

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I don’t know if I have posted this in the right section.

Does anyone here know if it is permissible to kneel after the Agnus Dei even though the local Bishop has asked everyone to stand? I understand universal Church law says we should kneel.

God bless you for answering me.
 
That was a question I had. I’d been away from the Church for a number of years and when I returned, everyone was standing after the Agnus Dei. I wondered about that, but didn’t ask anyone. Now I know.

Thanks for posting about this.
 
Thank you for the link, ZAB, but this is about after Holy Communion.

I’m asking if we can kneel after the Agnus Dei is prayed, before the priest holds up the Host and says “Behold the Lamb of God…” even though everyone else continues to stand. I don’t feel right standing and would rather kneel as we always used to.
 
In case I didn’t make it clear, our Bishop has asked that we stand.
 
Lormar said:
In case I didn’t make it clear, our Bishop has asked that we stand.
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Article 43 of the GIRM with adaptions for the US says this:
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53
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The universal norm is standing at that time and your Bishop has decided to follow the universal norm rather than the US norm as was his right to do. You have to obey. Once you return from Communion you may kneel if you wish.
 
Phemie said:
Article 43 of the GIRM with adaptions for the US says this:

The universal norm is standing at that time and your Bishop has decided to follow the universal norm rather than the US norm as was his right to do. You have to obey. Once you return from Communion you may kneel if you wish.
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not entirely true… if you read the remained of the GIRM instructions, you will read that if one prefers to kneel, the Holy See allows it.

***For those who wish to kneel, where the norm is standing, the right to do so has been secured by the Holy See. ***

.
 
I have a similiar question. We have been asked to stand after receiving, until everyone has received, then kneel after the priest sits. The choir then sings and you can kneel at that time. They say it’s a sign of unity.
 
It is my understanding that, regardless of what our Bishop requests as the norm, each person may kneel as they are so moved by the Holy Spirit without fear of reprisal or discrimination. I was a long time member of a parish in OH where the norm was standing, however, there were approximately 20% of the faithful participants who knelt after the Agnus Dei and after reception of our Lord in the Holy Eucharist. Thankfully, my new parish in AR has been following the more traditional habit whereby all kneel after the Agnus Dei.
 
Lormar said:
Thank you for the link, ZAB, but this is about after Holy Communion.

I’m asking if we can kneel after the Agnus Dei is prayed, before the priest holds up the Host and says “Behold the Lamb of God…” even though everyone else continues to stand. I don’t feel right standing and would rather kneel as we always used to.
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I feel funny even standing FOR the Agnus Die. WE are asking for God’s mercy on us. Seems more like we should be kneeling. 🤷

Peace
James
 
MrS said:
not entirely true… if you read the remained of the GIRM instructions, you will read that if one prefers to kneel, the Holy See allows it.

***For those who wish to kneel, where the norm is standing, the right to do so has been secured by the Holy See. ***

.
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Cardinal Arinze stated, “the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of the Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.”
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In other words, feel free to do other than the local bishop’s directs under the same conditions you would normally do so. You listen to the reasons with a teachable heart, and then you act in the most reverent attitude that you can, within the freedoms the rubrics allow. I think that means an openness to uniformity, but also an openness to a few people actually exercising the amount of latitude allowed. It includes considering whether or not you are going to cause weak persons scandal, but doesn’t force you to letting busybodies lead you around by the nose. For instance, where receiving CITH is allowed, a person might know it causes someone a scandal to see it might decide either a) to continue with CITH, but to address the stereotype in all other behavior, so as to remove the scandal by counter-example or b) simply receive COTT in recognition of the other person’s weakness. (Or vice versa. I don’t mean this example to be about CITH or COTT.)

In other words, you wouldn’t do it just because “well, I like what I like, and you can’t make me and I don’t care what anyone else thinks or whether they let my behavior be a near occasion of sin for them”. You want a good reason to use your freedom not to follow the local custom asked for by the bishop. On the other hand, having listened, you do have a certain amount of freedom. Having humbly informed your conscience, you can allow yourself to use that freedom without scruples about it.
 
I have lived in many parishes during the past 40+ years and, at every one of them, we kneeled after the Angus Dei. Until I moved this fall. The parish I am now in, and its sister parish, both continue standing after the Lamb of God. I kneel – as do some others – and no one seems to mind. Actually, when one person goes down, typically a few others around them will as well, almost on auto-pilot.

For me, it was indeed initially mostly out of habit . . . “grant us peace” (or “dona nobis pacem”), then the knees hit the ground. But, having thought about it, I realize it is something I choose to do in adoration of Christ in the Eucharist.

So . . . my question is . . . without making a big point out of it, how do I find out if the local bishop (Diocese of Richmond, Virginia, USA) says we ought to stand or if it is just a parish perogative?
 
IrishAm said:
I have lived in many parishes during the past 40+ years and, at every one of them, we kneeled after the Angus Dei. Until I moved this fall. The parish I am now in, and its sister parish, both continue standing after the Lamb of God. I kneel – as do some others – and no one seems to mind. Actually, when one person goes down, typically a few others around them will as well, almost on auto-pilot.

For me, it was indeed initially mostly out of habit . . . “grant us peace” (or “dona nobis pacem”), then the knees hit the ground. But, having thought about it, I realize it is something I choose to do in adoration of Christ in the Eucharist.

So . . . my question is . . . without making a big point out of it, how do I find out if the local bishop (Diocese of Richmond, Virginia, USA) says we ought to stand or if it is just a parish perogative?
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Our archdiocese has the GIRM with local directions posted on their web site. Otherwise, your diocese probably has an office of liturgy that you can call.

The norm is to stand in our archdiocese, but at some parishes I visit, everyone still kneels. Old habits die hard. As the meaning of having us all stand together is unity in reception, I just do whatever the home parishioners do, and kneel together with them instead of standing together with them. While having to stand until all have received has actually increased my appreciation that I receive as one with everyone else, that I am surrounded by people and a heavenly court that hope to spend eternity together praising and worshipping Our Lord as one, there is no point in standing apart in order to make some point about unity!

Our pastor was quite conscientious about telling everyone that the changes were coming, then introducing them and explaining why for each element for a Sunday or two. We have a pretty young parish, though, and I think the change-over was easier on some of us than others.

I can easily imagine that our archbishop gave some of the pastors permission not to press the issue, for pastoral reasons. This is meant to be complimentary to him and not critical of other bishops, but he seems to balance letting everyone know that there are rules and that it is expected that the rules be followed without making himself into a control freak or setting up any unnecessary confrontations.
 
Lormar said:
I don’t know if I have posted this in the right section.

Does anyone here know if it is permissible to kneel after the Agnus Dei even though the local Bishop has asked everyone to stand? I understand universal Church law says we should kneel.

God bless you for answering me.
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The GIRM says that you are to follow the local Bishops directive.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
The GIRM says that you are to follow the local Bishops directive.
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I would concur with Br. Rich. The Universal Norm is to stand after the Agnus Dei until your personal reception of Holy Communion. At that point, you may kneel, sit or stand, whichever is your preference.

In the United States, the bishop requested an indult to allow the faithful to kneel if the local bishop so directs. Rome granted that indult.
 
Brendan said:
I would concur with Br. Rich. The Universal Norm is to stand after the Agnus Dei until your personal reception of Holy Communion. At that point, you may kneel, sit or stand, whichever is your preference.

In the United States, the bishop requested an indult to allow the faithful to kneel if the local bishop so directs. Rome granted that indult.
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I don’t think it’s an indult. The universal GIRM 43 reads in part:
Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people.53 The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.
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With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
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I’m not the authority on these things but I don’t think that means that we can just pick and choose which we do. It’s up to the conference to decide and if they want they may retain kneeling. The USCCB did retain kneeling but gave individual bishops the right to choose otherwise for their own diocese.
 
The universal norm (as found in the Latin GIRM) is to be standing after the Agnus Dei. In the United States, this norm has been superseded by what was a long-standing custom (no pun intended) whereby the people would kneel after the Agnus Dei. However, this practice of kneeling in the United States can be overridden by the local Bishop if he so chooses: “In the dioceses of the United States of America … [t]he faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.” (GIRM 43)

It is proper to follow your Bishop’s prescriptions in this matter, because he is operating within the bounds of his authority. Your posture after Communion is a whole other matter, and it is left up to each communicant.
 
When I do attend our local NO parish, there are about 75% of the congregation that stands after Agnus Dei and the other 25% kneel. And this is one reason why I limit my attendence at the NO Mass. EF for me.
 
corsair said:
When I do attend our local NO parish, there are about 75% of the congregation that stands after Agnus Dei and the other 25% kneel. And this is one reason why I limit my attendence at the NO Mass. EF for me.
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So has the local bishop issued a directive, or is there confusion because the 75% took it upon themselves to change or are the 25% being disobedient?
 
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