Kneeling after communion

[JimR-OCDS]

johnpfmcguire

Saint Augustine said, “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.”

Of course he wasn’t speaking about following the rubrics or norms at a parish Mass, but it is in charity that we don’t make ourselves stand out as above or distractingly from the rest of the congregation.

Now you’re not going to tell me posture is an essential. We need to de-emphasize the peripheral so we can emphasize the central with greater energy. Do not mistake the Catholic community for a robot army cult (like that thing that Mexican priest tried to found that one time). Our discipline should center on the spirital. It is not a scandal if not everyone kneels.

No, but not being a distraction for the rest is the way of humility.

I can assure you, there will always be those who want to make themselves stand out above the rest, and if you allow freedom to do as each individual wants, eventually you’ll see people kneeling on broken glass.

Being obedient is an act of humility. If the priest says that we should stand, in humility, do as he asks.

Give him the benefit of the doubt, that he who sacrificed himself to become a priest, knows what he’s doing.

Jim

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

johnpfmcguire

Of course he wasn’t speaking about following the rubrics or norms at a parish Mass, but it is in charity that we don’t make ourselves stand out as above or distractingly from the rest of the congregation.

No, but not being a distraction for the rest is the way of humility.

I can assure you, there will always be those who want to make themselves stand out above the rest, and if you allow freedom to do as each individual wants, eventually you’ll see people kneeling on broken glass.

Being obedient is an act of humility. If the priest says that we should stand, in humility, do as he asks.

Give him the benefit of the doubt, that he who sacrificed himself to become a priest, knows what he’s doing.

Jim

Were I see your point and agree for the most part I would have to say that blindly doing what the priest says to do can lead open you up to a whole different set of issues. Glass goblets and wooden bowles for the Eucharist come to mind.

The priest does not have the Authority to set a norm for the posture the Bishop can, but ever here it can not be seen as a mandate.

Lets Face it the rubric clearly says in the Missal to bow during the Creed at the words

" by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man" how many do. I have even metioned this to people that are at mass atleast on sunday if not 2 and 3 time during the week as well that did not even know to do it. So to tell some one that has just recived the Body and Blood of the Savior that they can not go down on their knees and give thanks seems just a bit bizzare.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

oneGODoneCHURCH

Were I see your point and agree for the most part I would have to say that blindly doing what the priest says to do can lead open you up to a whole different set of issues. Glass goblets and wooden bowles for the Eucharist come to mind.

But that’s a different issue which the person in the pew has little control over.

The priest does not have the Authority to set a norm for the posture the Bishop can, but ever here it can not be seen as a mandate.

That’s right, but in most cases, the priest is following the dictates of his Bishop. So, obeying the priest is obeying the Bishop and all should be done in humility.

Lets Face it the rubric clearly says in the Missal to bow during the Creed at the words

" by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man" how many do. I have even metioned this to people that are at mass atleast on sunday if not 2 and 3 time during the week as well that did not even know to do it. So to tell some one that has just recived the Body and Blood of the Savior that they can not go down on their knees and give thanks seems just a bit bizzare.

From our perspective it seems like a strange request, but we’re not there to know all the reasons why this particular priest requested that they stand.

Jim

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Were I see your point and agree for the most part I would have to say that blindly doing what the priest says to do can lead open you up to a whole different set of issues. Glass goblets and wooden bowles for the Eucharist come to mind.

The priest does not have the Authority to set a norm for the posture the Bishop can, but ever here it can not be seen as a mandate.

Lets Face it the rubric clearly says in the Missal to bow during the Creed at the words

" by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man" how many do. I have even metioned this to people that are at mass atleast on sunday if not 2 and 3 time during the week as well that did not even know to do it. So to tell some one that has just recived the Body and Blood of the Savior that they can not go down on their knees and give thanks seems just a bit bizzare.

I agree. I also think that Catholics have a more personal and private way of worshipping than a lot of other Christian congregations. From confession to receiving the body and blood of Christ, it is an inward search for sin and redemption. Receiving the eurcharist is a personal gift from God to each of us.

 

[Havard]

johnpfmcguire

Of course he wasn’t speaking about following the rubrics or norms at a parish Mass, but it is in charity that we don’t make ourselves stand out as above or distractingly from the rest of the congregation.

No, but not being a distraction for the rest is the way of humility.

I can assure you, there will always be those who want to make themselves stand out above the rest, and if you allow freedom to do as each individual wants, eventually you’ll see people kneeling on broken glass.

Being obedient is an act of humility. If the priest says that we should stand, in humility, do as he asks.

Give him the benefit of the doubt, that he who sacrificed himself to become a priest, knows what he’s doing.

Jim

And what of the sacrifice of the Cardinal Prefect Emeritus whose specific domain is the Liturgy and Sacraments?

His Eminence made it clear that standing, sitting and kneeling after Communion are all allowed. As he commented on what a discussion with a hypothetical local bishop might be, “Why do you regiment the people of God? Are they soldiers? Allow them some freedom.”

So why make them feel guilty about not being humble if they are so compelled to kneel?

 

[johnpfmcguire]

It is so ironic how the higher ups in the clergy seem to understand the value of freedom whereas some petty local pastors, whom one poster in this thread gives a free ride (a conformism that fairly reeks of clericalism), can be pretty anal beyond all practicality. Most peculiar to want to defend low-level control freaks. That’s a spirit I’ve yet to understand quite frankly.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Given the fact that it is not stated as the Posture in the Missal or but a suggest it is the indiviual chioce.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Saint Augustine said, “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.” Now you’re not going to tell me posture is an essential. We need to de-emphasize the peripheral so we can emphasize the central with greater energy. Do not mistake the Catholic community for a robot army cult (like that thing that Mexican priest tried to found that one time). Our discipline should center on the spirital. It is not a scandal if not everyone kneels. They seldom do since there are always those with knee problems. We just need to loosen up on things that you can’t uniformize because they just aren’t essential!

The value of externals is its a visual cue for everyone else. While our ultimate goal is the enrichment of our souls in love and reverence and praise of God, while on earth we should also appeal to our senses. Let us not downplay its value, our physical bodies and our souls are connected here on earth. The visual aspect of seeing others doing the same thing as you do enriches one’s appreciation of the gesture. Being in a communal form of worship as the Liturgy is, what we do does not only affect ourself but others as well. We have this Mass song in Filipino called “Pananagutan”, literally translated “Responsibility”. Its a very beautiful song and it helps stresses my point. Let me share the lyrics and my translation:

Walang sinuman ang nabubuhay para sa sarili lamang
(No one ever lives only for himself)
Walang sinuman ang namamatay para sa sarili lamang
(No one ever dies only for himself)
Tayong lahat ay may pananagutan sa isa’t isa
(Each one of us has a responsibility towards one another)
Tayong lahat at tinipon ng Diyos na kapiling niya
(Each one of us is gathered together by God to be with Him)

It has a sweet sounding melody and I think it gives us the meaning of why communal worship is important.
johnpfmcguire;7338555:

I prefer to kneel because it optimizes reverence.

Not true. Reverence is something immaterial, it comes from the mind and from the heart. No posture optimizes reverence by itself. You can optimize reverence by standing, you can optimize reverence even laying down. If in your heart and in your mind you are giving your best to the Lord, then that is optimal reverence no matter how you posture yourself.

When it comes to responses, yes, we should be saying the same thing, not “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of God’s name for our good and the good of all God’s Church…It is right to give God thanks and praise,” but “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of His name for our good and the good of all His Church…It is right to give Him thanks and praise.” That would be an instance where uniformity is indeed desirable. See the difference? In a larger sense, too, Mass is supposed to emphasize the vertical rather than the horizontal as it has illegitimately done in the West lately. We need to follow the rubrics to the letter and do the rest according to our spirituality provided it not cause discord. But there is nothing Christian about conformism: I deem that’s what’s lulled so many Catholics to sleep.

Why only see one and not the other? Vertical and horizontal is important. One thing I appreciated more in the East is its made important that the Divine Liturgy is understood as a way to praise and worship God together. That is why besides some songs, everything else is uniform in Liturgy. It makes sure the same exact Liturgy is prayed the same exact way everywhere. We join not only the people on earth but the saints in heaven in praising and worshiping God during Divine Liturgy. I don’t see why the Roman Mass can be any different.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Interesting take, ConstantineTG: you sound like only the horizontal matters, like we should all be doing the same thing even if it’s reclining on the pews eating grapes. I never denied that some uniformity was essential, giving the example of the spoken responses (and we also include most of the gestures), but you’ve gone way to the horizontal extreme with your comment. Now I’ll admit the Divine Liturgy should be done the same way everywhere on the principle of Why mess with perfection?…so should the Gregorian Rite (done correctly) be done the same way everywhere…but we’re approximately 40,000 leagues away from that right now ever since abuse became almost expected of priests. Besides, I say let Asia be Asia. Groupthink isn’t for the West but rather liberty thank you very much. And that goes both ways: beware imposing culture on others in the name of theology, because it is a highly ungodly practice no matter who does it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Interesting take, ConstantineTG: you sound like only the horizontal matters, like we should all be doing the same thing even if it’s reclining on the pews eating grapes. I never denied that some uniformity was essential, giving the example of the spoken responses (and we also include most of the gestures), but you’ve gone way to the horizontal extreme with your comment. Now I’ll admit the Divine Liturgy should be done the same way everywhere on the principle of Why mess with perfection?…so should the Gregorian Rite (done correctly) be done the same way everywhere…but we’re approximately 40,000 leagues away from that right now. Besides, I say let Asia be Asia. Groupthink isn’t for the West but rather liberty thank you very much. And that goes both ways: beware imposing culture on others in the name of theology, because it is a highly ungodly practice no matter who does it.

I already made it clear, horizontal and vertical are both important. Don’t take one away from the other. Just as we are both flesh and soul, those are two completely different things but they were put together. I do not see why we cannot incorporate the physical aspects of worship to that of the spiritual. I used to believe that one’s inner convictions and beliefs outweight one’s external expressions. But as I become more “Byzantinized”, I realize the value of the externals and how it directly affects the internal. There are people who’s spirituality is overwhelmingly in tune with God and they may have no need for the externals. But to most of us we do. It helps us be there, be aware.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Again, your understanding is clearly an Eastern one. For what it’s worth I would go to Divine Liturgy every day if I could because that bug has definitely bit me as well…but I’m also trying to keep the discourse within the context of what’s being discussed, and the reality is different liturgies stem from different cultures and prescribe different disciplinary paradigms.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Again, your understanding is clearly an Eastern one. For what it’s worth I would go to Divine Liturgy every day if I could because that bug has definitely bit me as well…but I’m also trying to keep the discourse within the context of what’s being discussed, and the reality is different liturgies stem from different cultures and prescribe different disciplinary paradigms.

No, its not about being clearly Eastern only. I appreciated it more as I learned about the East, but it is in no way exclusive to the East. Symbolism is found everywhere in our faith, from the signs of the Sacraments, to the requirements of celebration of Mass, priestly vestments, etc. Pardon if my explanation is lacking of a Western sense becaue these things I only greatly appreciated in the East. But I am definitely sure the explanation applies to both East and West. As creatures of this physical world, our internals are manifested by our externals, and the externals tune our internals. It always works with each other and together. It doesn’t matter what traditions you adhere to, the philosophy and psychology of it is the same.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

ConstantineTG, since you “plead the fifth” about Western liturgy I hope you’ll accept the truth of my comment that while the same elements are present they are present in a vastly different way. Obvious examples include icons vs. sacred art. Take some time to learn a little more about what you’re talking about because, while you are right in principle, you want to appropriate your delivery to your audience rather than simply muse aloud.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

View From The Pew

Q.: Father, during our Mass, some of us are kneeling when we are supposed to stand - can you please clarify?

A.: I have noticed it too. Our Eucharistic Celebration [Mass] is a public worship to Trinity. The public worship is directed by the Church’s norms and demands certain uniformity. Hence, during the liturgical celebration [Mass], the only time that a worshipper is expected to kneel is during the Consecration, that is, after the Holy Holy you kneel and stand up after the Consecration is over, when the presider says the memorial acclamation, that is “let us proclaim the mystery of faith”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

john, what I am contending in your post is that you seem to endorse the, “let me do my own thing,” mentality. I think it should not have a place in Liturgy. There is a lot of private prayer time throughout the day. For one hour we come to praise and worship God as a community. Each person doing their own thing reeks of the “I have a personal relationship with Jesus” idea that Evangelicals and Pentecostals like to float around. Mass is the time for communal worship, that is why we call receiving the Eucharist as Communion. We become one with Christ, and we become one with each other in the Church as one body. That is why the externals of same posture is important. Its not about, “I’ll do it this way because I think this is more reverent.” Its all about, “let us all be united in praise and love of God.”

 

[johnpfmcguire]

The irony is that, in being more exacting than Rome has been, you are using your liberty to strip others of theirs. That can’t be right, can it? Here’s what I propose: starting now, whatever baggage you carry from dealing with heretics try to stop reacting to them and start responding to the truth of the Church which predates their little indiscretions.

 

[Phemie]

View From The Pew

Q.: Father, during our Mass, some of us are kneeling when we are supposed to stand - can you please clarify?

A.: I have noticed it too. Our Eucharistic Celebration [Mass] is a public worship to Trinity. The public worship is directed by the Church’s norms and demands certain uniformity. Hence, during the liturgical celebration [Mass], the only time that a worshipper is expected to kneel is during the Consecration, that is, after the Holy Holy you kneel and stand up after the Consecration is over, when the presider says the memorial acclamation, that is “let us proclaim the mystery of faith”.

That’s exactly what the GIRM presently in use in Canada says.

I’ll have to check my GIRM at the office tomorrow but IIRC, there is another section that allows for parishes where kneeling for the entire EP has been the custom to keep doing so (as of 1975). That’s why we still see many parishes where they still kneel for the entire E.P. But as I said, I’ll have to check that tomorrow. It may be that that is only part of the 2002 GIRM.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

It’s just a good thing Rome has qualified this with the common sense of Don’t ever let anyone tell you not to kneel before the Blessed Sacrament. The uptightness of these unauthoritative conferences is, to say the least, uninspiring.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The irony is that, in being more exacting than Rome has been, you are using your liberty to strip others of theirs. That can’t be right, can it? Here’s what I propose: starting now, whatever baggage you carry from dealing with heretics try to stop reacting to them and start responding to the truth of the Church which predates their little indiscretions.

My liberty in what? There is nothing I have said that has not been taught in the Church on why we should all assume the same posture during Mass. Also by doing your own thing and not following the recommendations of the priest and/or bishop, you have set yourself above in the hierarchy of the Church as more authoritative than a parish pastor or a bishop. Whether we agree with it or not, we should always submit ourselves to those whom Christ have given authority over us. True unity within the Church is only achieved through Communion with others. Doing your own thing is hardly communion, no matter how noble or holy your intention is.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

The very idea of calling someone proud for being as reverent as Rome will allow stands on its head.