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zab
Guest
How do you know it is performed without thought?
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eamonnroma
Guest
Why make a big deal of it? Each individual should do what he most feels comfortable with.
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gracepoole
Guest
I asked the question about kneeling because I’m attempting to teach my children what they should be doing during Mass. That’s why I asked whether there is a rule or simply diocesan/parish customs. I don’t know why people do what they do, nor do I know if they know why they do what they do. But it strikes me as odd that one would criticize someone for judging others while essentially doing the same with me.How do you know it is performed without thought?
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gracepoole
Guest
I wasn’t attempting to make a “big deal of it.” I was attempting to find out whether the Church mandates a specific action.
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zab
Guest
I am only going by what you have said, not by what I think you meant.I asked the question about kneeling because I’m attempting to teach my children what they should be doing during Mass. That’s why I asked whether there is a rule or simply diocesan/parish customs. I don’t know why people do what they do, nor do I know if they know why they do what they do. But it strikes me as odd that one would criticize someone for judging others while essentially doing the same with me.
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zab
Guest
Some of our visiting priests sit while another priest (or deacon) returns the Hosts to the tabernacle, and others remain standing until the tabernacle has been closed. So it differs from priest to priest as well whether they sit or not before the tabernacle is closed. For as long as I can remember, most of the people (other than those with difficulties) waited for the priest to sit before they sit. The question has come up at different times in our “OF” parish over the years to instructors and pastors and the answer given was that the proper time to sit was “after the tabernacle was closed”. I think most people in our parish try to follow this instruction, while some do wait for the priest to sit after the tabernacle has been closed as a sign of respect toward the priest.
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Phemie
Guest
The default posture is standing but we’re free to sit or kneel if we prefer. When the GIRM was first released in 2002 it only said to stand. A dubium was submitted asking if that meant we were no longer allowed to kneel after Communion. The response was "No, that we were free to also sit or kneel if we preferred.I asked the question about kneeling because I’m attempting to teach my children what they should be doing during Mass. That’s why I asked whether there is a rule or simply diocesan/parish customs. I don’t know why people do what they do, nor do I know if they know why they do what they do. But it strikes me as odd that one would criticize someone for judging others while essentially doing the same with me.
It should be noted that, as far as posture was concerned, the 2002 GIRM did not differ from the 1975 GIRM. It seems it had just taken 27 years for people to notice that the universal GIRM called for standing from the “Mystery of Faith” until the end of Mass.
After the dubium the wording was changed to indicate that all three postures are allowed.
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Brendan
Guest
It might be different in Canada, but the US GIRM had the faithful kneel from the Agnus Dei until reception of Holy Communion.
GIRM 43
The dubium that you reference was a clarification, as the 2002 GIRM allowed bishops to specify the position of standing after the Agnus Dei if they so chose. The dubium was in regards to those returning from receiving Holy Communion, were they still obligated to stand, or could they kneel. In all other diocese, the default was to kneel.
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peter26
Guest
I kneel until the priest says “let us pray”. I understand that that is correct, although some people can not kneel for that long which is understandable.
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Phemie
Guest
I should have been clear that I was referring to the universal GIRM (both the 1975 and the 2002/2011 versions), which only requires kneeling at the Consecration, though in both editions they grant national conferences the right to determine posture.
Both times, the US went one way and Canada went the other by opting not to require anything but the universal norm. In spite of this, parishes in Canada are all over the place when it comes to posture between the Sanctus and Communion. Within the same diocese, often within the same town, you’ll have one parish where they kneel immediately after the Sanctus and remain kneeling until the Amen and another where they don’t kneel until after the Epiclesis and rise at the Mysterium Fidei, and all combinations in between, including those where they don’t kneel at all.
Well the OP’s question is about the posture after Communion which officially is “any of the following, as desired: standing, sitting, or kneeling” which, as I stated, was clarified by the dubium.
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YADA
Guest
Its funny how the focus of this discussion is on Jesus at the altar and then being repositioned in the Tabernacle … when in fact once Communion has begun - Jesus is present in the Tabernacle of the Faithful … we are the body of Christ and Christ resides in each one of us … instead of focusing on Jesus in the Tabernacle in the front of the Church we should be more aware that Jesus is in the us as well as in all the people around us … He is there … equally and in perhaps a more profound way then in reserved Eucharist …
Now my preference is to do as our Bishop has determined and remain standing where he has instructed … obedience is not a bad habiy
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zab
Guest
The focus of this discussion is answering the question of the OP and, IMO, there is nothing funny about wanting to know what the proper posture is. But I do agree with you that we should use the posture that our bishop has determined or do as our pastor has recommended. And thanks for the reminder and pointing out that in the minutes after each of us who have just received Jesus in Holy Communion, we are living tabernacles.
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
I am from the generation where we were to kneel until the tabernacle door was shut. I remember it quite vividly because of being an altar boy in ancient of days.
The rule has changed. The norm now says the posture is to stand. Paragraph 43 of the GIRM, with the special provision for the United States, reads:
*43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.
The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.
In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]
For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.*
A problem arose because the “period of sacred silence” is mentioned in the GIRM as related to the moment when the priest presiding returned to the presider’s chair and thus interpreted what was prior to that (the Communion procession) as requiring everyone to be standing. In other words, the gesture of those returning from receiving Communion was only to be standing. As a result, certain geographical areas began enforcing this posture with an unbridled zeal because “the rule” was being broken.
This exchange may help to clarify:
*The July 2003 Newsletter of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (BCL) [this is the United States] noted the "controversy … over the proper posture of the faithful at Mass after receiving Holy Communion.
“In several dioceses people have been instructed that they must stand until the last person has received Communion, despite the long-standing custom that people knelt during the distribution of Communion”.
“Numerous inquiries” received by the BCL led Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):
Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
The BCL Newsletter continues: “In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion”*
From: adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html
Personally, I think it is sad that this required the submission of a dubium to the Congregation. As His Eminence, the Cardinal Prefect, says, this rule was never meant to be used as a blunt instrument to beat people with. There is a rule…a normative posture. If one chooses a different posture – presumably since we are talking about adults, they are doing so for some good reason – they should not be punished. That way of looking at enforcing a rule is rather disturbing, frankly.
The rule has changed. The norm now says the posture is to stand. Paragraph 43 of the GIRM, with the special provision for the United States, reads:
*43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.
The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.
In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]
For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.*
A problem arose because the “period of sacred silence” is mentioned in the GIRM as related to the moment when the priest presiding returned to the presider’s chair and thus interpreted what was prior to that (the Communion procession) as requiring everyone to be standing. In other words, the gesture of those returning from receiving Communion was only to be standing. As a result, certain geographical areas began enforcing this posture with an unbridled zeal because “the rule” was being broken.
This exchange may help to clarify:
*The July 2003 Newsletter of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (BCL) [this is the United States] noted the "controversy … over the proper posture of the faithful at Mass after receiving Holy Communion.
“In several dioceses people have been instructed that they must stand until the last person has received Communion, despite the long-standing custom that people knelt during the distribution of Communion”.
“Numerous inquiries” received by the BCL led Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:
Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):
Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
The BCL Newsletter continues: “In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion”*
From: adoremus.org/0703Kneel.html
Personally, I think it is sad that this required the submission of a dubium to the Congregation. As His Eminence, the Cardinal Prefect, says, this rule was never meant to be used as a blunt instrument to beat people with. There is a rule…a normative posture. If one chooses a different posture – presumably since we are talking about adults, they are doing so for some good reason – they should not be punished. That way of looking at enforcing a rule is rather disturbing, frankly.
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zab
Guest
Some people simply want to know what the rules of posture are or what is considered “proper”, not so they can beat others up about rules, but so that they may do what is considered proper and teach their children the proper rules and customs. There are other example of customs of posture that I once did with ease but now that I am a “senior” I have more difficulty doing. In the Presence of the Exposed Blessed Sacrament, I used to kneel on two knees going in and out of the pew as was/ is the custom. Now I am grateful that half of the time I can still get all the way down on one knee. I still think it is good to know what the rules are and to continue to teach the children the customs (such as when to genuflect with one knee or two) to the children. I know that children and adults often learn from the example of others. And I do regret that at times I cannot give the proper example due to my aging body that may or may not be so apparent to others. And being the weak person that I am, I wonder what others think about me, too, when I am not doing what is deemed proper.
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Phemie
Guest
Like you I was raised that genuflection was on both knees in the presence of the exposed Blessed Sacrament. But this double genuflection is no longer required.
Per 1973’s Eucharistiae Sacramentum from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship** ****II. Regulations For Exposition
** 84. Genuflection in the presence of the blessed sacrament, whether reserved in the tabernacle or exposed for public adoration, is on one knee.
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zab
Guest
Yes, I was told that about 25 years ago by our devout young pastor at that time, that we are only required to genuflect on one knee even when the Blessed Sacrament is Exposed. And that knowledge has made it a lot easier for me to follow now that I am older. But even though the requirement is one knee, I think it is still one of those things where the rule should not be so rigid. There is nothing wrong with continuing devout customs IMO. It is only a problem when we all attempt to get in the minds of why others do or do not do as we do or think they should do. And I think that we all do that at times to some extent. It is just a matter of the need to discard those unjustifiable thoughts.
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twf
Guest
Thanks for providing the relevant documentation Father. In my archdiocese most people kneel after receiving. Some sit. No one stands - never ever have I seen a single person stand in any of the many parishes I have visited in this archdiocese. The vast majority seem to find it natural to kneel. The neighbouring diocese, which is my original home diocese, is a different matter. In my home parish where I was received over a decade ago it was the custom to kneel or sit after receiving. A few years ago I was visiting and knelt after returning to my pew as usual. My uncle gently touched my shoulder and told me to stand… Apparently the new bishop had asked all parishes to remain standing. Thus the custom changed- from the top down. I truly don’t understand the value of changing what was a long standing custom but there you go. Of course, as you note above, it cannot be binding… But when the bishop actively encourages a practice who will do otherwise?
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Don_Ruggero
Guest
Well…you see, that was the problem. It really was binding…at least in so far as a rubric of this sort is binding. Not all rubrics have equal value, as any theologian or liturgist knows – or at least is supposed to know and be able to rationally evaluate.
The rubric stated that people could kneel (or not – Bishop’s call) after the Agnus Dei for the *Ecce Agnus Dei *and the response “Domine, non sum dignus…”
At that point, according to the rubric, was the beginning of the Communion procession. All were to be standing and remain standing from this point until the next demarcation in the synaxis…even when the communicants returned to their place in the pews…which was the period of sacred silence. The thought was that this whole span is a procession, even if only part of the assembly is in motion, down to the last person who receives Communion.
The problem was that certain people became over zealous in enforcing this rubric…the sort of people whom I call “dubiously commissioned liturgical police people.” They began in places brutally enforcing the rubric to the exclusion of all other values…and rather not unlike an earlier controversy over the posture for receiving Communion. They were like a verger with his wand or a Sister with her ruler who had gone stark raving berserk.
Frankly, almost any time that is done, it does not have a good end. In this case, it caused a lot of controversy. The Cardinal Prefect finally intervened at the imploring of the Americans and clarified that this rubric was there as a general statement of what should be happening, all else being equal. It was not meant to make choosing another posture some sort of liturgical high crime. Some people, after all, are physically incapable of standing…the law cannot demand the impossible.
It is a procession. If people, however, wish to kneel or sit, the rubric should not be enforced with such rigidity that they can’t and are punished or blighted for doing so. That is making an idol out of a rubric and that is just flawed thinking.
The premise behind the rubric is “This is what the Church directs and this is what the Church expects…and if you don’t do that, well then one assumes there is a good and sound reason for your choosing to do something else. Get on with it.”
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veilofveronica
Guest
Parishes in my Archdiocese instituted the practice that we all stand after receiving Holy Communion as a sign of unity, then when everyone has received, we can kneel for a private prayer.
I personally don’t like this practice. I see what they are aiming for, but in a very large congregation, this does not allow for private prayer. I choose to kneel after Holy Communion when possible (I bring a very active toddler to Mass).
I know some modern-design churches don’t even have kneelers. That makes me incredibly sad.
I personally don’t like this practice. I see what they are aiming for, but in a very large congregation, this does not allow for private prayer. I choose to kneel after Holy Communion when possible (I bring a very active toddler to Mass).
I know some modern-design churches don’t even have kneelers. That makes me incredibly sad.
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