Kneeling After the Agnus Dei -- Implicit Directive?

[Lisa_Lavadores]

It is my understanding that we are to kneel after the Agnus Dei unless our bishop directs us not to do so. In every church I’ve been to in our diocese, there is no kneeling at that moment (except by a few – but those few almost always do other traditional things that are no longer supposed to be done).

However, I have found no one who can tell me where our bishop directed us not to kneel. One priest told me it was in a major (in terms of our diocese) document on the liturgy which our bishop penned, but A) that document was written before the bishop had the authority to say “No kneeling,” and B) the bishop didn’t say it in the document anyway!

So far, I’ve been kneeling. But I’m starting to wonder if I’m wrong. In the cathedral over which our bishop presides, there is no kneeling – does that mean he has given an implicit directive? Many other things happen at the cathedral that are not in accordance with the GIRM, but I don’t think that would take away from a directive by example – if there is such a thing.

I personally prefer to kneel, but that’s irrevelant. I don’t want to kneel if I’m not supposed to do so. Should I follow the actions of the faithful in the bishop’s congregation (in this matter – not in the actions I know are wrong) or does there need to be a written directive? If the latter, should I assume that there is a written directive (even if no one can point me to it) since every parish is worshipping as if there is one? One priest told me that he knows of no such order by the bishop (unfortunately, despite this, his parishioners do not kneel – he leaves those things to the liturgy committee).

Some people say “when in Rome…” but I can’t help but think, “I am in Rome – the Roman Catholic Church. And when I kneel, although I appear to be out of step, I am in union with the universal church and those who don’t kneel are actually the ones out of step.”

But again, I don’t want to disobey a legitimate directive of the bishop – I just want to know if he’s given a command or not.

Please advise. Thanks!

 

[joe5046]

Don’t know where Mahony said this, but it is the “norm” throughout the entire diocese.

 

[Walking_Home]

It is my understanding that we are to kneel after the Agnus Dei unless our bishop directs us not to do so. In every church I’ve been to in our diocese, there is no kneeling at that moment (except by a few – but those few almost always do other traditional things that are no longer supposed to be done). …

Some people say “when in Rome…” but I can’t help but think, “I am in Rome – the Roman Catholic Church. And when I kneel, although I appear to be out of step, I am in union with the universal church and those who don’t kneel are actually the ones out of step.”

But again, I don’t want to disobey a legitimate directive of the bishop – I just want to know if he’s given a command or not.

Please advise. Thanks!

---

Can’t help you on what your bishop may or may not have directed-----but the following is what Rome directed.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

Holy See Affirms Customary Kneeling During Communion Rite

Concerning the practice of kneeling after receiving Holy Communion, Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the Committee on the Liturgy, submitted a dubium [question] to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments [CDW] on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typical tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

Responsum: Negative, et ad mentem (No, for this reason). The mens [reason] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, not to regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

The dubium and response appear in the July 2003 edition of the BCL Newsletter, published by the US Bishops Committee on the Liturgy.

Earlier, the CDW re-affirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

“Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained”.

 

[dumspirospero]

Is your local Ordinary Cardinal Mahony…if so, that would explain the massive and widespread liturgical abuses and lack of reverance throughout your arch-Diocese…and I am not saying this as an insult to any of the parishioners…it is not their fault…It is the ArchBishops fault…he is the one promoting, condoning, and supporting these things.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I cannot speak to the direction of your Ordinary, but please do note:

It is my understanding that we are to kneel after the Agnus Dei unless our bishop directs us not to do so.

That is the norm in the USA.

Some people say “when in Rome…” but I can’t help but think, “I am in Rome – the Roman Catholic Church. And when I kneel, although I appear to be out of step, I am in union with the universal church and those who don’t kneel are actually the ones out of step.”

While the GIRM does note that: where it has been the custom, it is laudable to retain the practice of kneeling after the Agnus Dei (and indeed, the US bishops have done so, subject to the local bishop), that practice is an exception – The universal norm is to stand.

“Dum in Roma…”,
tee

 

[Walking_Home]

Rome added the sentence --“Where it is the custom…this is laudably retained”----to paragraph (no43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the univeral Church.

This sentence does not appear as stated by Rome in our GIRM no. 43. Since this sentence is included for the universal Church then----Where it is the custom for people to kneel—kneeling would be following the universal norm and standing becomes the exception to the universal norm.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

Earlier, the CDW re-affirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

“Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained”.

(See AB March 2003, p 4 sidebar. This sentence does not appear in the Institutio [or GIRM] as adapted for the United States, since this period of kneeling is explicitly affirmed in the adapted version of no. 43, “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise”…)

 

[tee_eff_em]

Rome added the sentence --“Where it is the custom…this is laudably retained”----to paragraph (no43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the univeral Church.

This sentence does not appear as stated by Rome in our GIRM no. 43. Since this sentence is included for the universal Church then----Where it is the custom for people to kneel—kneeling would be following the universal norm and standing becomes the exception to the universal norm.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

Earlier, the CDW re-affirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

“Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained”.

(See AB March 2003, p 4 sidebar. This sentence does not appear in the Institutio [or GIRM] as adapted for the United States, since this period of kneeling is explicitly affirmed in the adapted version of no. 43, “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise”…)

Yes. Correct.

From the wording of the IGMR, I infer that it is laudible to retain the practice, but that it was not obligatory that the episcopal conference to do so. Perhaps my inference is erroneous.

tee

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

While the GIRM does note that: where it has been the custom, it is laudable to retain the practice of kneeling after the Agnus Dei (and indeed, the US bishops have done so, subject to the local bishop), that practice is an exception – The universal norm is to stand.

“Dum in Roma…”,
tee

Thanks for reminding me of that, tee. The norm is to stand, kneeling is a laudable and allowed exception where it had become the norm (i.e., USA), and a US bishop may choose to lift the exception in his diocese. My problem is that I cannot find a source that shows my bishop has lifted the exception. However, perhaps I need to stop looking…(more in next post).

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

(See AB March 2003, p 4 sidebar. This sentence does not appear in the Institutio [or GIRM] as adapted for the United States, since this period of kneeling is explicitly affirmed in the adapted version of no. 43, “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise”…)

“Determines.” That’s a looser word than something like “decrees,” and I think that allowing standing during his own Masses shows that he has determined otherwise. I think I’ve been wrong to insist on something in writing. As much as I prefer to kneel, I think I need to take my hat in my hand and stand to be obedient.

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

Is your local Ordinary Cardinal Mahony…if so, that would explain the massive and widespread liturgical abuses and lack of reverance throughout your arch-Diocese…and I am not saying this as an insult to any of the parishioners…it is not their fault…It is the ArchBishops fault…he is the one promoting, condoning, and supporting these things.

I didn’t want to name names – although I guess it’s easy enough to figure out by looking at my profile!

Yes, no two parishes do things alike in this diocese. Fortunately, I am currently in a parish that is pretty faithful to the rubrics.

Whatever liturgical faults may be laid my bishop’s feet, he does have the right to tell us to stand. My problem was in determining whether or not he had done so. I’ve now decided he has. I don’t like admitting I’ve been wrong :crying:, but I’d rather do that than continue in disobedience (which is no longer sincere ignorance – it would now be defience).

 

[tee_eff_em]

Thanks for reminding me of that, tee. The norm is to stand, kneeling is a laudable and allowed exception where it had become the norm (i.e., USA), and a US bishop may choose to lift the exception in his diocese.

I would say *where it has become the *custom *(ie USA) *because I think of *norm *having a more technical and universal meaning but: yeah.

My problem is that I cannot find a source that shows my bishop has lifted the exception.

Hence my initial comment:

I cannot speak to the direction of your Ordinary,

And I understand your frustration at not finding documentation. It is not my intent to put you back to that task but: You’d think you would be able to find such, else how are the faithful to *know *that the bishop has so determined? (Of course, such documentation need not be web-accessible, and perhaps you could inquire of your parish or the chancery offices?)

tee

 

[Walking_Home]

“Determines.” That’s a looser word than something like “decrees,” and I think that allowing standing during his own Masses shows that he has determined otherwise. I think I’ve been wrong to insist on something in writing. As much as I prefer to kneel, I think I need to take my hat in my hand and stand to be obedient.

---

A bishop may issued a norm to have the laity to stand. But this does not abrogate the right that people have to kneel. Being obedient does not fall on our shoulders only. A bishop too–needs to be obedient to Rome.

When Rome has determined–that the custom of people to kneel is theirs by right—no priest or bishop has the authority to prohibit the people from kneeling. If they do prohibit–they do it without the guidance and authority from Rome.

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

---

A bishop may issued a norm to have the laity to stand. But this does not abrogate the right that people have to kneel. Being obedient does not fall on our shoulders only. A bishop too–needs to be obedient to Rome.

When Rome has determined–that the custom of people to kneel is theirs by right—no priest or bishop has the authority to prohibit the people from kneeling. If they do prohibit–they do it without the guidance and authority from Rome.

I understand what you are saying, but in this case, Rome* has* given bishops this authority. (See above documents).

 

[Walking_Home]

I understand what you are saying, but in this case, Rome* has* given bishops this authority. (See above documents).

---

Yes–they have the authority to issue a norm. But what they cannot do is prohibit people from kneeling. Rome in various circumstances–has had to clarify the true intent of various norms and/or regulations. Rome is the supreme authority as to how the norms are applied.

Rome has stated that custom of people kneeling takes precedence over the bishops norm.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

Earlier, the CDW re-affirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

“Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained”.

(See AB March 2003, p 4 sidebar. This sentence does not appear in the Institutio [or GIRM] as adapted for the United States, since this period of kneeling is explicitly affirmed in the adapted version of no. 43, “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise”…)

 

[Eliza10]

I understand what you are saying, but in this case, Rome* has* given bishops this authority. (See above documents).

I have the same confusion here in Rochester about kneeling after Agnus Dei. Many parishes have a general practice of standing here. And in a recent Funeral Mass for a Priest (one who must have been saddened by this) where our Bishop presided, surrounded by several Priests, people didn’t even kneel for the consecretion!

I kneel because it really feels like the right thing to do. I know that sounds lame, but there are so many quesitonable liturgical practices, that I do my best to ignore them (unless the practice is directly abusive to Our Lord). I try to focus on what is right - like the fact that, while our Masses are likely illicit, they are at least valid! Thats a great grace!

That ignoring takes a lot of energy. I don’t have much leftover for sorting out and weighing the confusing protocols of whether my kneeling is okay or not.

If anyone wanted to call me on it, it would provide a wonderful opportunity to open up a fact-finding discussion that would get many of my questions answered about liturgical norms. I could get it all straightened out. (I think it would be quite an extended disucssion!)

But I don’t think anyone with a committment to questionable Mass practices wants to discuss those things. And I don’t think anyone will ask me. So meanwhile, unless God, in my conscience, dictates otherwise, I’ll continue doing what truly seems right to me.

 

[vince2paul]

Erm… I’ve attended mass in a church where the people kneel after the sign of peace. So when they sing Agnus Dei, all of them are kneeling. How about this?

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

Erm… I’ve attended mass in a church where the people kneel after the sign of peace. So when they sing Agnus Dei, all of them are kneeling. How about this?

They should be standing until after the Agnus Dei.

 

[vince2paul]

They should be standing until after the Agnus Dei.

Is this fixed or can it be changed by the bishop etc?
And is there any official document that state this? I think I’m gonna bring this to the parish priest.

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

Is this fixed or can it be changed by the bishop etc?
And is there any official document that state this? I think I’m gonna bring this to the parish priest.

I know of nothing that says a bishop can change this. As to where it is stated that they should be standing – the GIRM (General Instructions of the Roman Missal).

 

[Lisa_Lavadores]

---

Yes–they have the authority to issue a norm. But what they cannot do is prohibit people from kneeling. Rome in various circumstances–has had to clarify the true intent of various norms and/or regulations. Rome is the supreme authority as to how the norms are applied.

Rome has stated that custom of people kneeling takes precedence over the bishops norm.

adoremus.org/Kneeling-after-Communion.html

Earlier, the CDW re-affirmed kneeling after the Ecce Agnus Dei [Behold, the Lamb of God] when it amended the relevant paragraph (no. 43) of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani for the universal Church by adding the following clarifying sentence:

“Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, and before Communion when the priest says Ecce Agnus Dei, this is laudably retained”.

(See AB March 2003, p 4 sidebar. This sentence does not appear in the Institutio [or GIRM] as adapted for the United States, since this period of kneeling is explicitly affirmed in the adapted version of no. 43, “unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise”…)

I went to these links and the links within these links. No wonder the faithful are confused – the bishops themselves are!

I do hate that a bishop can decide to make a posture different from the norm (“custom” for tee ) of the country. For that matter, I’m not crazy about the idea that a country can make a posture different from the norm of the universal Church. But both are allowed and I must accept that.

What is really difficult for me is the idea that an individual can make his posture different from that of the legitimate directive issued by his bishop. I don’t see where anything you pointed me to says that, at least, not in regard to kneeling after the Agnus Dei.

Below is something (not on kneeling after the Lamb of God, but on kneeling after receiving Communion) that appears to say the bishop can be overridden by an individual, but I don’t think it actually says so. This could very well mean that after standing to the end of Communion, one can kneel or sit (which is how I do it right now – as soon as Communion is over for all, I kneel). I could be wrong, though, because of the word “sit” – it wouldn’t be an option to sit at the point when I now kneel because that is what is already directed and being done by the rest of the faithful (unless it refers to those parishes where people don’t sit at all – they stand straight through Communion and all subsequent prayers and announcements):

Concerning the practice of kneeling after receiving Holy Communion, Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the Committee on the Liturgy, submitted a dubium [question] to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments [CDW] on May 26, 2003:

Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typical tertia, to forbid this practice?

Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):

**Responsum: **Negative, et ad mentem (No, for this reason). The mens [reason] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, not to regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.

My question about this exchange of letters is “How much authority is in this response?” He is the prefect of the CDW – is he speaking as the prefect? Is this response definitive?

What a mess. The Church says stand; the USA says kneel; a bishop says stand; a parishioner decides to kneel – and all are in perfect obedience?! (Actually, the parishioner wouldn’t be, at least not in regard to kneeling after the Agnus Dei – at least, not from the sources to which you directed me).

If it’s true, it’s true. But I wish it weren’t.