Kneeling after the Agnus Dei

[agw123]

Every Church I have ever been to Mass, we all kneeled after the Agnus Dei with one exception in Richmond VA. If you were in the main seating of the Church you had kneelers and you knelt. If you were in the auxillary extra seating you stood because the design of the chairs (no kneelers and no way to kneel and extend your legs back because there was a horizontal rail on the front of the chair). Kneeling would be physically and logistically impossible without moving the chair out of the way. I would gather this would fall in to the “some other reason” category. (as in badly designed chairs)

 

[CatholicJHwk]

I love seeing this question because my current parish boggles my mind. I’m 34 and have grown up and attended the same archdiocese my entire life (Kansas City in KS). At my folks’ parish, the one I grew up in, we knelt through the EP, stood at the Great Amen, knelt again when the Agnus Dei was finished. Then we stood at our turn for Communion and knelt when we got back until the Tabernacle was closed.

In my 20s I attended another parish, sadly this was a time when I was away from the Church and attended sporadically, e.g. when I felt like it. My point here is that I don’t recall every single Mass but can say with certainty they followed the same process as my childhood parish. (note: it’s only 3 miles separating them and they’re both about the same age, I think.)

And now, in my 30s I attend a parish that has relatively young families and is only about 33 years old, and the sanctuary only 26 years old. Anyway, everything is as it was as a kid except…when the priest moves from the altar to the dais to distribute communion. This is the ONLY parish I have ever been to where everyone sits at this point. I, and sometimes a handful of others, continue to kneel but 98% of the congregation sits at this time until it’s their turn when they get up, come back and kneel as normal.

I’ve always found it very, very strange (and annoying/disrespectful but I’m not supposed to judge, right?) and even my Mom remarked about it the few times she’s visited our church. They also close the Tabernacle during communion (which gets under my skin - really I think it’s just a case of the EMHC not knowing why it should remain open) but that’s another post.

 

[zab]

A devout parish is not determined by whether they kneel or stand after the Agnus Dei.

 

[zab]

I love seeing this question because my current parish boggles my mind. I’m 34 and have grown up and attended the same archdiocese my entire life (Kansas City in KS). At my folks’ parish, the one I grew up in, we knelt through the EP, stood at the Great Amen, knelt again when the Agnus Dei was finished. Then we stood at our turn for Communion and knelt when we got back until the Tabernacle was closed.

In my 20s I attended another parish, sadly this was a time when I was away from the Church and attended sporadically, e.g. when I felt like it. My point here is that I don’t recall every single Mass but can say with certainty they followed the same process as my childhood parish. (note: it’s only 3 miles separating them and they’re both about the same age, I think.)

And now, in my 30s I attend a parish that has relatively young families and is only about 33 years old, and the sanctuary only 26 years old. Anyway, everything is as it was as a kid except…when the priest moves from the altar to the dais to distribute communion. This is the ONLY parish I have ever been to where everyone sits at this point. I, and sometimes a handful of others, continue to kneel but 98% of the congregation sits at this time until it’s their turn when they get up, come back and kneel as normal.

I’ve always found it very, very strange (and annoying/disrespectful but I’m not supposed to judge, right?) and even my Mom remarked about it the few times she’s visited our church. They also close the Tabernacle during communion (which gets under my skin - really I think it’s just a case of the EMHC not knowing why it should remain open) but that’s another post.

In past decades, there were liturgical abuses that crept in even with the most devout parishes. I can see from what you have posted that not even your childhood parish was without error. Sometime around 2004, the Vatican issued the document, “Redemptionis Sacramentum” “on certain matters to be observed or avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist”. Instructions taken from this document were to be implemented in all of the diocese to correct liturgical abuses. One thing that was pointed out to us was that we were to remain kneeling untill after the Great Amen (not to stand at the Great Amen). Our parish, which has always been a very devout parish, had aready corrected almost every liturgical abuse prior to the date that our Archbishop ordered for these changes were to take place. Just about the only change that we had left to make was the surprise new instruction from our Archbishop to remain standing after the Agnus Dei. It was humbling for many of us to obey this order from our bishop because we took a little pride in that our parish always strived to do things the proper way. So when the date came for the parishes to make the necessary changes, we needed to be obedient just like the rest of the parishes in the Archdiocese.

 

[Phemie]

I’ve always found it very, very strange (and annoying/disrespectful but I’m not supposed to judge, right?) and even my Mom remarked about it the few times she’s visited our church. They also close the Tabernacle during communion (which gets under my skin - really I think it’s just a case of the EMHC not knowing why it should remain open) but that’s another post.

Since ideally nobody would go to the Tabernacle until Communion was over and the Blessed Sacrament was being reposed, why should the Tabernacle remain open?

 

[Evan]

Since ideally nobody would go to the Tabernacle until Communion was over and the Blessed Sacrament was being reposed, why should the Tabernacle remain open?

Traditionally the tabernacle is left open when there are no hosts present. So, in our parish, all the hosts are removed after the agnus dei in order to be distributed at communion. Any that remain after communion are then reposed and the tabernacle closed.

 

[zab]

Traditionally the tabernacle is left open when there are no hosts present. So, in our parish, all the hosts are removed after the agnus dei in order to be distributed at communion. Any that remain after communion are then reposed and the tabernacle closed.

Our tabernacle is left open during Communion, but it is not always empty. There is usually a smaller ciborium containing the Hosts for the homebound in it. And the luna sometimes has the large Host in it for adoration. It may be that it is left open because it is more practical that way. The priest, not having purified his fingers before placing the remaining Hosts in the tabernacle, would have to touch the key to open it…

 

[Brendan]

A devout parish is not determined by whether they kneel or stand after the Agnus Dei.

True, but the devotion of a parish can be measured (in part) by how obedient it is to the liturgical directives placed opon it by Rome and the local Ordinary.

Obedience would be a baseline. Obedience itself would not indicate devotion, but devotion cannot be had without obedience first being present.

 

[zab]

True, but the devotion of a parish can be measured (in part) by how obedient it is to the liturgical directives placed opon it by Rome and the local Ordinary.

Obedience would be a baseline. Obedience itself would not indicate devotion, but devotion cannot be had without obedience first being present.

I agree (I think ). However, sometimes people could have devotion but they may be ignorant of the General Instruction allowing the local ordinary to determine the posture after the Agnus Dei. Thus, their failure to stand with the rest of the congregation after the Agnus Dei is more out of not knowing that the correct posture in this Archdiocese is to stand rather than it is out of disobedience.

 

[Brendan]

I agree (I think ). However, sometimes people could have devotion but they may be ignorant of the General Instruction allowing the local ordinary to determine the posture after the Agnus Dei. Thus, their failure to stand with the rest of the congregation after the Agnus Dei is more out of not knowing that the correct posture in this Archdiocese is to stand rather than it is out of disobedience.

I would agree. Disobedience would always involve a conscience decision to act against legitimate instruction.

If the person knows that the bishop recieved certain authority from Rome, and issued a directive under that authority (like standing after the Agnus Dei until the personal reception of Holy Communion) , the devoted person would obey.

 

[rossem]

Quoting the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, number 43 is great, and the bishop decision is great.
My problem is the newly released version of the daily Roman Missal says kneel before the Agnus Dei,

Now what to do?

Someone needs to get on the same page.

 

[Brendan]

Quoting the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, number 43 is great, and the bishop decision is great.
My problem is the newly released version of the daily Roman Missal says kneel before the Agnus Dei,

Now what to do?

Someone needs to get on the same page.

The GIRM is the authoratative document in this case. A daily Missal can only address the Universal norms.

 

[Phemie]

The GIRM is the authoratative document in this case. A daily Missal can only address the Universal norms.

“Universal” in this case meaning universal for the US since the universal norm in the GIRM is standing.

 

[rossem]

I guess it just seems like all the time spent on re-translation of the Daily Roman Missal someone would have caught that.

 

[zab]

Quoting the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, number 43 is great, and the bishop decision is great.
My problem is the newly released version of the daily Roman Missal says kneel before the Agnus Dei,

Now what to do?

Someone needs to get on the same page.

I don’t use a daily Roman Missal and it may be that I am not understanding your post, but we should be kneeling before the Agnus Dei (during the Eucharist Prayer until after the Great Amen.) As far as I can remember, we have always been standing at the Agnus Dei. This thread concerns the posture after the Agnus Dei.

 

[Phemie]

I guess it just seems like all the time spent on re-translation of the Daily Roman Missal someone would have caught that.

I’m a little confused by what you mean by a ‘Daily Roman Missal’.

I’m sure the Roman Missal used on the altar does not say to kneel before the Agnus Dei.

If you mean that you purchased a personal Missal from some publishing house, one that contains all the propers for each day of the three year cycle, it’s quite possible that the proof reader messed up. Those missals are not official documents and it has nothing to do with the translation.

 

[CatholicJHwk]

In past decades, there were liturgical abuses that crept in even with the most devout parishes. I can see from what you have posted that not even your childhood parish was without error. Sometime around 2004, the Vatican issued the document, “Redemptionis Sacramentum” “on certain matters to be observed or avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist”. Instructions taken from this document were to be implemented in all of the diocese to correct liturgical abuses. One thing that was pointed out to us was that we were to remain kneeling untill after the Great Amen (not to stand at the Great Amen). Our parish, which has always been a very devout parish, had aready corrected almost every liturgical abuse prior to the date that our Archbishop ordered for these changes were to take place. Just about the only change that we had left to make was the surprise new instruction from our Archbishop to remain standing after the Agnus Dei. It was humbling for many of us to obey this order from our bishop because we took a little pride in that our parish always strived to do things the proper way. So when the date came for the parishes to make the necessary changes, we needed to be obedient just like the rest of the parishes in the Archdiocese.

I misstated, when I was a kid we stood after, not at. This is still the case today. In my current parish it’s the whole relaxing while waiting for the appropriate time to get up that really gets under my skin.

 

[rossem]

The Daily Roman Missal is what Catholics used at mass before the Magnificat, and seasonal books in the pews.

It contains what is going on and what is said during every mass, + part GIIRM, part RUBRICS, part Devine Office, part Catechism

You should give it a look.

I have sent the Publisher (the Midwest Theological Forum with approval from USCCB) an E-Mail as to why they suggest to kneel before the Agnus Dei and the GIRM wants you to stand.

I checked a copy of a 1955 Daily Missal that I have, but it does not contain posture instructions.