Kneeling and bowing?

[jesusmademe]

Laudetur Iesus Christus!
In the Extraordinary Form people are supposed to kneel at “et homo factus est” in the Creed. In tge Ordinary Form you are supposed to not kneel. Why is it important that we don’t kneel in the OF? Some people bow but still I see it as not kneeling. What is going on?
What is the difference betqeen bowing and kneeling. Kneeling to me is what a knight did. In Sweden we never kneel unless we are at a Catholic Mass. I would say that kneeling and bowing has lost its symbol in today’s world.
When do you kneeln or bow outside of mass and adoration?

 

[HeDa]

In the OF we kneel during the Creed when we confess “Et incarnátus est de Spíritu Sancto ex Maria Virgine, et homo factus est” during Christmas and also on March 25 Feast of the Annunciation (unless it is moved to another day if it falls in the Holy week or a Sunday). Other days we bow.

You would bow when you greet the king and his family members if you are a man. Ladies would curtsey. Dance and other kinds of performances.

Sweden lost the tradition in late 1960s early 1970s to bow and curtsey when children were greeting adults or a gentleman greeting a woman. At that time a lot changed in the society with the “Du” reform and removing titles (Dr. Mr. Mrs etc) when greeting other people.

 

[jesusmademe]

What is the official explenation only kneeling twice a year and not at every time the Creed is recited/sung at Mass?

 

[1ke]

What is the official explenation only kneeling twice a year and not at every time the Creed is recited/sung at Mass?

Why does there need to be an explanation? Rubrics change. Which is perfectly fine.

 

[jesusmademe]

So the Church just change things without any reasons???
There must be a reason for this change!

 

[Mintaka]

I’ve never heard the whole story, but this is my understanding…

During the time Vatican II started, and before that, there was a lot of talk about “going back to early Christian practices” or “being more like the Eastern side of the Church.”

In the East, they did standing on Sundays (as a celebration of the Resurrection) and kneeling/proskynesis on weekdays. In the West, the idea was more that you stood to listen to the Gospel and other “listen-y” parts (as a sign of respect to the teacher/philosopher, Jesus), and then you sat on the floor whenever stuff got long or during the homily. (Women with kids did a lot of sitting, frankly.)

During the time of St. Francis of Assisi (who was a big proponent of it), gradually Western Christians decided that kneeling was a great way to show devotion to the Eucharist. It was the position that Western people took, whenever they were asking stuff from temporal lords or showing them respect, so why not do it at church for the real Lord?

This was a true lay initiative, btw. Laypeople started doing it spontaneously; St. Francis thought it was a great idea and followed along (and instructed his friars to do it too).

There are places in Europe where it never caught on, but the US church descends from people who were big into kneeling.

Sometime in the 1800’s or early 1900’s, a lot of Catholic leaders started to discourage kneeling, or think that it should only be for weekdays because of the Byzantine practice. There was a feeling that kneeling looked servile, and also that it made them look weird to Protestants. A lot of European Catholics continued kneeling anyway, but others stopped kneeling. The practice carried over into Vatican II.

So of course, anybody who didn’t like kneeling, didn’t like kneeling at the Creed. Thus the transformation of the full genuflect into a bow.

The Church in the US has a specific indult to allow laypeople kneeling at the traditional times. Usually laypeople only use the Eucharistic bits of it, but laypeople can kneel during the Creed part whenever they feel like it.

 

[jesusmademe]

Thanks for the explanation!
I have also been told that the Churxh wanted older practices. This would imply that “protestant” congregationsl singing and saying Mass ad populum are very old practices but I am not sure about it. I am aware that congregational singing has always been there in different ways but modern practices came more from the Lutherans I suppose.
Well, actually I went to a parish where pwople were standing at a particular moment. The mysterium fidelium I think was the moment when they begun standing up for a long time.

About standing and kneeling. Standing to me symbolises listening to the Master (heeding the message) and being fully prepared to go out in the workd to do His work.
I can’t imagine a buttler not standing up.
What do you think?
And how can I learn more about this?

The churches whithout pews should be there. I have seen churches with chairs rather than pews. Is that an evidence?