Kneeling at a UGC DL

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

Yesterday I attended a DL at a Ucranian Greek Catholic chapel in Fatima. It is only my second time going to a Divine Liturgy. The congregation kneeled for the reading of the Gospel (and I am assuming it was the Gospel, from circumstancial evidence - the priest coming out from behind the iconostasis with a big book, and some members of the congregation kissing it after the reading). Is this normal? I arrived during the homily at the only other DL I’ve ever gone to, so I don’t know if this is normal. I was a bit startled, given that I thought Christians had to stand during the reading. Any one care to clarify?

 

[jrsmith]

The congregation should never kneel for the reading of the Gospel. I have gone to many divine liturgies, and the congregations that do kneel will do so during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, but I think the tendancy is to stand for pretty much everything, as that was historically what the Byzantine Church did. See canon 20 of the 1st Council of Nicea.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Some Romanian Orthodox will kneel for the Gospel, especially on weekdays.

Sometimes a sick person will kneel under the Gospel book as it’s being read.

There are all sorts of little local practices and customs, some harmless, some questionable.

 

[Hesychios]

Yesterday I attended a DL at a Ucranian Greek Catholic chapel in Fatima. It is only my second time going to a Divine Liturgy. The congregation kneeled for the reading of the Gospel (and I am assuming it was the Gospel, from circumstancial evidence - the priest coming out from behind the iconostasis with a big book, and some members of the congregation kissing it after the reading). Is this normal? I arrived during the homily at the only other DL I’ve ever gone to, so I don’t know if this is normal. I was a bit startled, given that I thought Christians had to stand during the reading. Any one care to clarify?

When discussing practices of the UGCC one has to make allowances for the long history of that church in the Union of Brest.

Kneeling on a Sunday is not the norm in “Byzantine” churches, because of the ancient prohibition. I really do not know how many times it was formally prohibited in Council. I suppose that once the Union of rest was in full swing some clerics felt that they were no longer bound to observe the ancient canons and began to adopt Latin practices.

I defer to bpbasilphx because he is really is a most knowledgeable person about practices and history of the eastern church. This case is no different really, he knows a lot more about these things than I ever will and can point out that there have been exceptions to our expectations. I might add that many ACROD parishes also kneel on Sunday, most likely a legacy of their past in communion with Rome as well. Naturally, most bishops would like to change this practice but they must always be pastorally sensitive.

But why kneel during the Gospel? Where could that have come from? I do not believe that it was ever an accepted custom of the western church, could this be an organic development? I agree with jrsmith that this would not really be proper.

I believe the kissing of the Gospel book by parishioners is something one would usually expect at Matins (although I had seen it done between a 9AM and an 11AM Mass in a UGCC parish in Chicago). Perhaps you witnessed Matins?

The fact that you suspect that they were kneeling at the Gospel really puzzles me. The text of the liturgy specifically commands the congregation to stand in the words of the deacon or priest. The text of the Ordo Celebrationis calls for standing.

One translation (in English, from EWTN website) gives:
“Wisdom. Arise. Let us hear the holy Gospel. Peace be with all.” This is also the text on the Greek Orthodox website.

The Melkites say:
“Wisdom. Let us stand and listen to the Holy Gospel”

Another says it this way:
“Wisdom, let us stand upright and listen to the Holy Gospel. Peace be with you.”

I did not find an English text specifically from a UGCC website.

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

The Divine Liturgy started at 10 AM and went on until 11:30 AM. As far as I know, one does not receive communion during the Hours. I cannot tell you what was being said because I was the only non-Ukranian there, hence why I had to gather what was going on from circumstancial evidence. I really would have liked to understand though.

 

[Tradycja]

I have been to small village parishes in western Ukraine in the Lviv oblast. This practice of kneeling during the Gospel is quite common in a village setting, not so common in the actual city.

Also in the UGCC it is common for the children to kneel around the podium during the Gospel.

 

[Tradycja]

You guys should see how they do Divine Liturgy in this church: St. Andrew’s in Lviv

Consecration bells, then during communion time everyone kneels around the perimeter of the aisle to receive communion kneeling, the priest is accompanied by a candle bearer and another altar serve with a bell. A bell is rung every time someone receives communion.

At the same time, people here are fervently praying, there are tons of confessions being heard, etc. The Church is packed compared to the less latinized parishes or even the Studite Church “Carmelitki Church” which follows the rite faithfully.

http://www.lviv-life.com/media/pics/churches.jpg

Also you have to understand that due to conflicts between Catholics and Orthodox, the people who lived through communism defend the latinizations as a way to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. You can’t go up to a Ukrainian grandmother and tell her to read page 51 of the “Ordo Celebrationis” and page 2 of “Applying the Liturgical Instruction of the Eastern Churches” document.

People just are hungry for God, that’s all. I agree that the eastern churches shouldn’t be latinized, but what is most important is that people are in sanctifying grace. At the same time, I am not Ukrainian Catholic so it isn’t for me to say. In a sense things like the Sacred Heart devotion have become a part of the Ukrainian tradition.

(By the way the Albanian Orthodox Church near my house uses an organ during Divine Liturgy as well as a bell to tell people when to stand, sit, or kneel)

 

[Hesychios]

You guys should see how they do Divine Liturgy in this church: St. Andrew’s in Lviv

Also you have to understand that due to conflicts between Catholics and Orthodox, the people who lived through communism defend the latinizations as a way to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. You can’t go up to a Ukrainian grandmother and tell her to read page 51 of the “Ordo Celebrationis” and page 2 of “Applying the Liturgical Instruction of the Eastern Churches” document.

Yes, I understand and agree.

What I can’t figure out is where kneeling for the Gospel comes from.

Isn’t it standard practice in the Latin church to stand for the Gospel? It’s been a long time since I was at a traditional Mass but I thought we always stood for the Gospel.

Perhaps my memory deceives me on this. What is the practice of the EF today?

 

[Hesychios]

You guys should see how they do Divine Liturgy in this church: St. Andrew’s in Lviv

Also you have to understand that due to conflicts between Catholics and Orthodox, the people who lived through communism defend the latinizations as a way to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. You can’t go up to a Ukrainian grandmother and tell her to read page 51 of the “Ordo Celebrationis” and page 2 of “Applying the Liturgical Instruction of the Eastern Churches” document.

Yes, I understand and agree.

What I can’t figure out is where kneeling for the Gospel comes from.

Isn’t it standard practice in the Latin church to stand for the Gospel? It’s been a long time since I was at a traditional Mass but I thought we always stood for the Gospel. (I suppose I had always assumed, evidently wrongly, that standing for the Gospel was a worldwide practice in Apostolic churches. )

Perhaps my memory deceives me on this. What is the practice of the EF today?

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

Standing is the norm for the Gospel reading both at the Gregorian Mass (EF) and the Pauline Mass (OF). Tradycja says that kneeling is common in village settings in the Ukraine. Perhaps that’s what’s going on here. I don’t know if any of you have ever been to Fátima. Even though it is considered a city, it’s simply an oversized town. The byzantine chapel where the DL is celebrated is inside a hotel. you could probably stick some 50-60 people in there, I’d guess.

Yes, I understand and agree.

What I can’t figure out is where kneeling for the Gospel comes from.

Isn’t it standard practice in the Latin church to stand for the Gospel? It’s been a long time since I was at a traditional Mass but I thought we always stood for the Gospel. (I suppose I had always assumed, evidently wrongly, that standing for the Gospel was a worldwide practice in Apostolic churches. )

Perhaps my memory deceives me on this. What is the practice of the EF today?

 

[Hesychios]

Standing is the norm for the Gospel reading both at the Gregorian Mass (EF) and the Pauline Mass (OF). Tradycja says that kneeling is common in village settings in the Ukraine. Perhaps that’s what’s going on here.

I understand that.

My question is, how did this custom of kneeling for the Gospel get started in the villages of Ukraine? Naturally these people are bringing it with them from L’viv to wherever they settle.

It isn’t proper to any tradition these people were exposed to, so it has to be a “home-grown” practice. I think it can be argued that the liturgy dates from the late fourth century, approximately. The prohibition dates from 325AD. So both the prohibition of standing on resurrection day, and the liturgy predate the evangelization of the Kyivan Rus (commonly dated to 988AD, but beginning sometime earlier) by many centuries. When the Faith first came to them through missionaries, they had to have been standing for the Gospel.

The call to stand is right there in the text of the liturgy, it is not a ‘rubric’ as such (which, as a rubric, would mean it was an instruction outside of the actual text of the liturgy). The deacon has called out for hundreds of years “Let us stand and listen to the Holy Gospel”. How could these villagers not know?

The Latin church does not kneel for the Gospel, yet we tend to assume that this is a Latinization, but how can we in all seriousness make such an assumption? Is it a practice common to the Orthodox and Catholics of Ukraine, or just the Catholics?

I can only surmise that this change in the local practice happened after Slavonic was no longer well understood by these Slavic people, but what of their priests and deacons?

To me, this is a real paradox.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Well you got me. I’m Ukrainian Catholic and I have never seen any kneeling during the Reading of the Gospel in any church in the diaspora. This is actually the first time I have heard of this. Maybe some parishes in Ukraine do this, but I have no experience of this. Tradycja has though and I am actually quite delighted that she has attended Divine Liturgy in Ukraine. You have actually provided me with new information.

In the diaspora outside of Ukraine, you will find certain parishes who kneel at other times during the periods in the Liturgy where it is noted. In my parish, we were taught to only stand and sit during the Divine Liturgy, so that when we visited other parishes where EVERYONE knelt during the times allotted in the text of the Liturgy, we kind of felt out of place standing in the middle of the Church!

But I have never seen kneeling during the Reading of the Gospel. I know there is sitting by all the parishioners when the Epistles are read, but only standing during the Gospel. Children may gather around the priest when he reads from the Gospel, but, in my experience, they stand as does the whole congregation. I’m stumped. Wish I could be of more help but I will have to visit more churches next time in Ukraine.

 

[Hesychios]

… when we visited other parishes where EVERYONE knelt during the times allotted in the text of the Liturgy, we kind of felt out of place standing in the middle of the Church!

LOL! I had the same experience in both Catholic and Orthodox parishes

At one ACROD parish in particular, I felt extremely out of place because I was an unknown visitor who stood alone (and did not wish to give the impression of barging in on them and telling these people how to worship, as perhaps others had done before me). However I took some comfort in seeing a solitary tall dignified gentleman near the front and center standing erect with his wife kneeling beside him. I thought to myself, “well, if he can do it I can” only to learn later that he actually could not kneel because of his bad knees!

I remember the late pastor of a UGCC parish (a young and dynamic man of the cloth… memory eternal!) on the northwest side of Chicago who told me that he explained the practice of standing through Mass, but his congregation would have none of it.

That’s just how it is.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I remember the late pastor of a UGCC parish (a young and dynamic man of the cloth… memory eternal!) on the northwest side of Chicago who told me that he explained the practice of standing through Mass, but his congregation would have none of it.

That’s just how it is.

LOL. Or to make it more confusing: a parish where half stand/half kneel - mine . We really are going to have to perhaps one day work this all out and standardize it. It’s at the stage sometimes where a new priest may come in and keep the filioque or not. The wording might be liquid papered out of the texts of the Divine Liturgy inside the Church if a new priest has one view.

I guess this was to be expected given the Church’s status in the diaspora without a home church. Metropolitan Sheptytsky in Lviv leaned eastwards, the second most powerful bishop in the UGCC Khomyshyn learned westwards (celibate clergy, etc). World War Two and the liquidation of the Church in Ukraine basically put a stop to any evolution or conclusion. That’s why even among the Synod of Bishops of the UGCC there were many gung-ho pro-Patriarchate bishops, at the same time there were many anti-Patriarchate ones. I assume things will get sorted out sooner the more years the UGCC has to standardize everything (i.e. with a new Catechism coming out).

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

I assume things will get sorted out sooner the more years the UGCC has to standardize everything (i.e. with a new Catechism coming out).

I’m looking forward to getting a copy of it when it does eventually come out. I’m Latin, yet I can’t deny the pull I feel towards the Byzantine tradition.

 

[Hesychios]

I’m looking forward to getting a copy of it when it does eventually come out. I’m Latin, yet I can’t deny the pull I feel towards the Byzantine tradition.

I think it will be very refreshing.

 

[Patchunky]

I remember the late pastor of a UGCC parish (a young and dynamic man of the cloth… memory eternal!) on the northwest side of Chicago who told me that he explained the practice of standing through Mass, but his congregation would have none of it.

We had one of “those” here where I live. He served the DL in English instead of Ukrainian.

He went on sick call one day to visit parishoners in the hospital and at home. When he returned, he found all his belongings in boxes on the parish house steps and the locks to the church and parish house changed. The parish council had also called the bishop and requested a new priest as this one was “not the right fit”…

 

[Tradycja]

We had one of “those” here where I live. He served the DL in English instead of Ukrainian.

He went on sick call one day to visit parishoners in the hospital and at home. When he returned, he found all his belongings in boxes on the parish house steps and the locks to the church and parish house changed. The parish council had also called the bishop and requested a new priest as this one was “not the right fit”…

Oh wow, I go to the UGCC pretty regularly. I was aware that there are those who are against latinizations, but are there really people against english language Divine Liturgies? That is absurd. That is just planting the seeds for future children of the Ukrainian immigrants to either become Latins or to leave the Church as they identify more with the American culture.

In high school I had a Ukrainian Orthodox friend who is non-practicing because since he did not speak Ukrainian (his parents didn’t pass it down and just going to Church once a week was not enough to learn it) he felt like a foreigner in the Church.

I think the Melkites have a correct view on this they have stated in a synod that the Church is not an ethnic club, that the faith comes first. I fully agree.

Unfortunately in my own rite, the Latin rite, the Polish priests have the same attitude. I was at a parish once and basically treated like an outsider because I did not speak Polish (my grandparents were polish). But how can I learn if no one has taught me? Also due to life circumstances I learned to speak Spanish. I would love to learn Polish but due to my work situation right now (all Spanish) it would be difficult. There are parishes near my house where they only have daily confessions available in Polish.

We Novus Ordo-rite babies will always be misfits I suppose. Don’t fit in at the Polish parish because we don’t speak Polish. Don’t fit in at the Novus Ordo english parishes because we are too “traditional”. Don’t fit in at the Eastern churches because that is not our tradition and we’ll always think like Latins and don’t fit in at the TLM parishes because we don’t think so much energy should be spent on topics such as whether women should wear pants or not.

 

[Hesychios]

Oh wow, I go to the UGCC pretty regularly. I was aware that there are those who are against latinizations, but are there really people against english language Divine Liturgies? That is absurd. That is just planting the seeds for future children of the Ukrainian immigrants to either become Latins or to leave the Church as they identify more with the American culture.

In North America the leakage rate among the Ukrainians, Catholics and Orthodox alike, is astounding.

In high school I had a Ukrainian Orthodox friend who is non-practicing because since he did not speak Ukrainian (his parents didn’t pass it down and just going to Church once a week was not enough to learn it) he felt like a foreigner in the Church.

I have had the same experience, in both Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox parishes. Although I was not raised in that church, I guess one could say I really was a foreigner.

Unfortunately in my own rite, the Latin rite, the Polish priests have the same attitude. I was at a parish once and basically treated like an outsider because I did not speak Polish (my grandparents were polish). But how can I learn if no one has taught me? Also due to life circumstances I learned to speak Spanish. I would love to learn Polish but due to my work situation right now (all Spanish) it would be difficult. There are parishes near my house where they only have daily confessions available in Polish.

My experience is the same, and I am also Polish through my grandparents on my father’s side (they came to America sometime around 1910). I was baptised in a ‘national’ parish in Chicago. This was not a PNCC parish, but a boundryless parish for the Polish Roman Catholics in the Archdiocese of Chicago. My father spoke Polish and that is all I heard when his family was together, but we used English in our home.

My father was not encouraging us to learn Polish, he was of two minds on the subject but primarily he was concerned that we ‘blend in’ and never have our Americanness questioned. He also maintained that he spoke a “fractured Chicago Polish” and we should not learn the language from him.

I have related my experiences going back to Polish parishes in Chicago elsewhere on CAF. It was very discouraging. Most of the people were recent (1980’s - 1990’s) immigrants, they did not adopt a welcoming mannerism for visiting strangers.

Evidently, they did not feel they ‘needed’ us.

We Novus Ordo-rite babies will always be misfits I suppose. Don’t fit in at the Polish parish because we don’t speak Polish. Don’t fit in at the Novus Ordo english parishes because we are too “traditional”…

I figure that I must have attended between 600 and 700 TLM’s while growing up, I remember it well enough.

I think the EF Mass has been idealized or romanticized in the peoples minds somewhat. It wasn’t nearly so perfect, eye-popping and awe inspiring then as most people would assume, although if all one has experienced is the Missa Normativa of today I can see that it would be quite elegant by contrast.

… Don’t fit in at the Eastern churches because that is not our tradition and we’ll always think like Latins …

If you will always think like a Latin then no, the eastern churches are not for you.

But if you reexamine the way you look at the Faith and can embrace it through eastern eyes you might (like so many others) find a home there after all.

I realize that you are already quite knowledgeable on the subject, but there are plenty of additional resources of Catholic authorship which can help you if you wish to explore this possibility further.