Kneeling Banned? Vatican II can be wrong?

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It’s my belief/understandnig that Vatican II’s teachings on the Liturgy are infallible. .
Only to the extent that they teach what has always been taught.

For a teaching on the Liturgy to be infallible, it would need to be infallible for the entire Catholic Church, not just the Latin Rite.

Sacrosanctum Concillium is itself not an infallible excercise of the ExtraOrdinary Magisterium, as it does not apply the Eastern Churches (Byzantine, Chaldean etc…)

So all the particulars of the liturgy found in S.C, but that do not apply to the Byzantine Liturgy cannot be said to be infallible, but that does not mean that we still do not owe it full obedience as lawfully promulgated discipline.
 
As far as kneeling after the Agnus Dei, only a handful of dioceses – Los Angeles, Portland (OR), Seattle, and Detroit are the ones I know about – mandate standing at this time.
Your information about the Archdiocese of Detroit is not correct. The particular law of this Archdiocese is that the faithful are to kneel after the Agnus Dei.

The only exception is for parishes that do not have kneelers installed. They may continue to stand, with the proviso that kneelers are to be installed during any subsequent parish renovation.

The diocese of Sagniaw, north of Detroit, does have particular law to stand after the Agnus Dei. The original policy also had the faithful to remain standing until after all had recieved, but this has been subseqently modified after reception of Cardinal Arinze’s dubium on the subject. So the faithful may kneel or sit after personal recpetion of the Eucharist.

From personal experience, one parish I went to in Cleveland, the faithful stood after the Agnus Dei. It might be the case that this is particular law (to stand) in the Diocese of Cleveland, or it might be a fluke. That parish did have kneelers.
 
Kneeling or standing after the Agnus Dei is up to the local Bishop. Our Diocese in MN stands, but when we lived in Detroit, we kneeled. It can be different Diocese to Diocese, depending on the Bishop.

Jennifer
 
So would this imply that at the time the decision was made, for example the decision to allow Communion in the hand was made, was “correct”? Then in hindsight it has become “incorrect” and should be changed? What I am trying to figure out is whether or not the Vatican can make a mistake from the start or whether the decision was “right” at the time but later it was realized that is was a mistake.
There is not a “correct” or “incorrect” aspect of a disciplinary rule. First of all, receiving Communion in the hand is by indult only. The diocese in the US asked for and received this indult back in the 70s (I think I am right about the date). The bishops of some countries asked for the indult later and in some countries they have never requested the indult. An indult is a special exception to a universal norm. The universal norm for receiving Communion is still on the tongue and that is how Communion must be received if you are in a country that does not have the indult.

It is not a matter of faith or morals. If it was it couldn’t be licit and illicit at the same time based of where you are living.

The Vatican could revoke the indult for any diocese, country or the whole Church at any time. This doesn’t mean that they have come to “realize” that it was “wrong”. It could be that someone (a Pope for example) thinks we need to change our focus during the reception of Communion. It could be that an increase in sacreligious handling of the hosts makes a change prudent. It could be that a determination is made that priests and bishops are not complying with the Catechises obligation of the indult and they get it “taken away”. 🙂 The possibilities are many and none indicate that the previous decision was wrong.
 
I really think you need to be more clear on what you mean by ‘correct’, ‘right’, ‘mistake’, and other such words.
Let me try to clarify a little better. Using communion in the hand as an example, at the time the Vatican granted the indult to the United States could that decision (at that time) have been a mistake or error by the Vatican? By “mistake” or “error” I mean that the Vatican was wrong in granting the indult. My current understanding and belief is that the Vatican did not make a mistake but instead made the decision based on facts at that time that made it the right thing to do. However, the Vatican can later revoke the indult but in doing so it doesn’t mean that the Vatican made a mistake or error in the first place by granting the indult. It just means that the reasons for granting the indult in the first place are not longer relevant.

I have got into many dicussions with a particular person that constantly claims that the Vatican can make errors in dealing with the Liturgy. My argument has been that they have not made any errors. The decisions made were to address particular needs of the Church and if those needs are no longer there then the previous decision could be changed. But that doesn’t mean the first decision was a “mistake” or “error”. The person I’ve been having these discussion with claims that that proves the Vatican made an error in the first place and therefore can make errors in the Liturgy.

I don’t know if that explains things any better…
 
The Vatican could revoke the indult for any diocese, country or the whole Church at any time. This doesn’t mean that they have come to “realize” that it was “wrong”. It could be that someone (a Pope for example) thinks we need to change our focus during the reception of Communion. It could be that an increase in sacreligious handling of the hosts makes a change prudent.
This is basically my understanding. The indult was not “wrong” or a “mistake” in the first place and thus the Vatican did not “error” in granting the indult. Revoking it just means the reasons for allowing it in the first place are no longer valid.
 
Revoking it just means the reasons for allowing it in the first place are no longer valid.
OR it could mean that those diocese using the indult are not following it properly. This is the most likely scenario IMHO. The indult contains language requiring the Bishop and priests to provide particular Catechesis about reception in the hand. This is so rarely done that most people don’t even know that it exists. The Vatican could effectively say, “not now. Come back when you are ready to give it (the indult) proper attention.” 🙂
 
Let me try to clarify a little better.
I would agree with this. As Corki states in another post to you, ‘correct’ and ‘incorrect’ are just not applicable to all liturgical directives.

We have civil laws that specify which side of the road on which to drive. This can cause problems if people used to driving on one side of the road have to drive in a country where people drive on the other side. But however inconvenient or problematic such a law can be, a law specifying driving on a particular side of the road cannot be ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’. (This pre-supposes there is no higher law binding countries to make uniform traffic laws.)

Most liturgical directives are similar to traffic laws in that they are not intrinsically correct or incorrect. They provide order and structure in service of a greater good. But they can be changed since they are not intrinsically correct or incorrect.
 
Yes, I was surprised at his statement that came from a priest and haven’t been able to find any information to back it up. My family occasionally attends the TLM here in San Diego and kneeling (of course) is mandatory. However, what I was wondering is if kneeling could be “banned” by the bishop is he so pleases. An example that comes to mind is Bishop Brown up in Orange County, CA, that refused give communion to a communicant until she stood.
Any priest or bishop who refuses to give communion to a kneeling communicant is completely wrong.

Now ther has been issued the “norm” for the US that says that the “norm” in the US is to recieve standing. But that a communicant cannot be refused communion if they present themselves kneeling. I am unaware if this “norm” was issued just for the NO Mass or the TLM Mass also, but would not think it applies to TLM Mass (how could it?).

But the priest is supposed to “instruct the faithful” on the “norm” for the US.

Now whether or not a person who chooses to keep recieving kneeling after recieving individual conseling is disobeying or not is another ball of wax. I do think it is almost impossible to say one way or another because kneeling may be something the person feels led to do by the Holy Spirit or it may be a defiance but I don’t see how this can be judged by anyone except God.

But while the bishops in the US have deemed the “norm” to be standing, they are NOT allowed to refuse anyone who kneels nor is kneeling to be considered “banned”.

There IS an official document floating out there somewhere about this, but I just didn’t go look for it:p .
 
Not banned. A local bishop can discourage kneeling, but the GIRM still rules.
Quick question. What do you mean by this? Like, can the local Bishop licitly discourage kneeling? Or would that just be a total violation?

I do agree though, the GIRM outweighs it. My parish is a Cathedral and kneeling isn’t even done there. Only a few of us do it. Sad, huh?
 
Most liturgical directives are similar to traffic laws in that they are not intrinsically correct or incorrect. They provide order and structure in service of a greater good. But they can be changed since they are not intrinsically correct or incorrect.
Well stated. The Vatican could mandate reception of communion while lying on our backs. This would not be wrong, in the true sense of right and wrong, good and evil, etc. It would however be terribly unwise. Not an error in the sense of deviating from Truth - only an error in deviating from prudence.
 
In the Archdiocese of Louisville, I think there was an instruction at one point for everyone to stand during the entire communion time (from the time the first person received until the last) and then people could sit or kneel. Sadly this caused great confusion and some resentment as it was not the normal practice at the time. I don’t know what the current instructions are in Louisville, but the last several masses I went to (around Christmas) there was no uniformity at all during or immediately after communion, where prior to the instruction there usually was uniformity within each parish, but not necessarily across the diocese.

In my parish we kneel after the Agnus Dei, go forward and receive standing, and kneel upon returning from communion. After communion is over some continue to kneel until the next prayer, while others will sit.

I have never seen anyone attempt to receive kneeling at our parish, but from time to time someone will genuflect as a sign of reverence and then receive standing.

At the Newman ministry at college, everyone there is a considerable lack of uniformity, with some kneeling and others standing from the Agnus Dei until going forward, and after receiving some kneel, some sit, and a few stand. During the silence after communion almost everyone sits. It is similar to the confusion in Louisville, though at least here we have the excuse that a lack of kneeler may be the cause of the confusion.
 
This is basically my understanding. The indult was not “wrong” or a “mistake” in the first place and thus the Vatican did not “error” in granting the indult. Revoking it just means the reasons for allowing it in the first place are no longer valid.
Precisely - or, as has been pointed out, it could mean that the allowed practice has become problematic.

As one example, until about the 9th century the Church permitted married clergy and bishops in the Latin Rite. Then concerns were raised, for example, about the fact that married clergy could possibly end up passing Church property on to their children, and the discipline was changed so that in the Latin rite priests and bishops had to be unmarried. And they are to this day.

If tomorrow the Vatican decided that the shortage of priests outweighed any argument in favour of not having married clergy, then they could again allow Latin rite clergy to be married.
 
But the priest is supposed to “instruct the faithful” on the “norm” for the US.

Now whether or not a person who chooses to keep recieving kneeling after recieving individual conseling is disobeying or not is another ball of wax. I do think it is almost impossible to say one way or another because kneeling may be something the person feels led to do by the Holy Spirit or it may be a defiance but I don’t see how this can be judged by anyone except God.
Kneeling is not considered disobedient even after the priest instructs a person who kneels on the reasons for the norm of standing. You can read more of the Vatican’s stand on this issue here. I draw special attention to the words:

… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion. [emphasis mine]

Maria
 
Let me try to clarify a little better. Using communion in the hand as an example, at the time the Vatican granted the indult to the United States could that decision (at that time) have been a mistake or error by the Vatican? By “mistake” or “error” I mean that the Vatican was wrong in granting the indult. My current understanding and belief is that the Vatican did not make a mistake but instead made the decision based on facts at that time that made it the right thing to do. However, the Vatican can later revoke the indult but in doing so it doesn’t mean that the Vatican made a mistake or error in the first place by granting the indult. It just means that the reasons for granting the indult in the first place are not longer relevant.

I have got into many dicussions with a particular person that constantly claims that the Vatican can make errors in dealing with the Liturgy. My argument has been that they have not made any errors. The decisions made were to address particular needs of the Church and if those needs are no longer there then the previous decision could be changed. But that doesn’t mean the first decision was a “mistake” or “error”. The person I’ve been having these discussion with claims that that proves the Vatican made an error in the first place and therefore can make errors in the Liturgy.

I don’t know if that explains things any better…
This article on Ecclesiatical Disciplines might help you.

newadvent.org/cathen/05030a.htm
To claim that disciplinary infallibility consists in regulating, without possibility of error, the adaptation of a general law to its end, is equivalent to the assertion of a (quite unnecessary) positive infallibility, which the incessant abrogation of laws would belie and which would be to the Church a burden and a hindrance rather than an advantage, since it would suppose each law to be the best. Moreover, it would make the application of laws to their end the object of a positive judgment of the Church; this would not only be useless but would become a perpetual obstacle to disciplinary reform.
From the disciplinary infallibility of the Church, correctly understood as an indirect consequence of her doctrinal infallibility, it follows that she cannot be rightly accused of introducing into her discipline anything opposed to the Divine law;
 
What does your spiritual director think about this?

Betsy
Havent brought it up.

Its not that I feel the Eucharist at the NO to be invalid (certainly not), but that I feel I would be a hypocrit to believe and say the recieving in on the tongue is more reverant while recieving in the hand just so I can recieve.
 
Havent brought it up.
Perhaps you should. It’s significant that you do not receive the Eucharist for extended periods of time when no serious sin impedes you. It would also help the director to know you better and understand what is important to you.

Betsy
 
It’s my belief/understandnig that Vatican II’s teachings on the Liturgy are infallible. However, it’s implementation afterwards are where problems have occurred. Much of what happened after the council is a result of misinterpretation of what the council really intended. If the council was implemented correctly we would not see much difference between the Tridentine Mass and the current Mass. Our “modern” churches would not be built the way then have been. We would have seen “organic” development rather than an sudden change.

Please correct me if any of what I stated is wrong.
Infallibility has to do with Faith and Morals. The directions in the Liturgy are neither. Vatican 2 covered a number of things, and people who don’t like what has occured since Vatican 2 are quick to point fingers and make statements that do little more than show their own ignorance of the Church and its teachings.

For example: Communion in the hand is not a moral issue; it is an issue of practice. Further, it is not mandated; it is allowed. And further than that, it is so well documented that Communion in the hand was the practice of the early Church that it is not even an issue of discussion as to it’s historical fact. One may not like it, or feel that it is horrible; but that is an issue of personal opinion, and sadly, people often have personal opinions at odds with Church practices. The Church tolerates personal opinions at odds with it’s choices and directions to a large extent, and pretty much always has. People simply don’t know their history.

In short, there are many self professed “moral theologians” with no training whatsoever, who make pronouncements as to the moral rightness or wrongness of liturgical rules. And their opinon and $2.00 will get them somewhere on the local bus.

As to whether or not we would see much difference between the Mass rite prior to Vatican 2 and today if changes ahd been gradual is simply a matter of pure and unadulterated specualtion. It presumes, underneath the statement, that the members of Vatican 2 had certain intentions, and that simply cannot be proved in a way that the question posited can be answered. Some of them intended that major changes be made; some intended less major changes, some intended none at all (and obvioulsy were not succesful in their position; the documents would not say what they do were they successful). The movement in liturgy did not start with Vatican 2 in any way; it had been going on for years.

That it was all to rapid and all to chaotic, I think, is something that many, if not almost all people might agree to; perhaps excepting the very liberal fringe - and that is a small minority. But to posit that the Mass would look pretty much like what it did, say, in 1962 simply cannot be shown; it is pure specualtion. There is no basis to presume that only minor changes would be made and then all liturguical change stopped. Would we have the rite as we have today; again, speculation without a foundation.

We have what we have, and there seems to be little discussion from most parts of the world as to whether it is good or bad; perhaps that is because most of the liturgical experimentation has occured in Europe, Canada, the United States, and perhaps Australia. I have heard almost no comments about the chages in the Liturgy from, say, Africa, or Asia, or South or Central America. Just an interesting observation.
 
Perhaps a thought on standing for the Agnus Dei and to the point of reception of Communion might be wrothwhile here (particularly in light of the fact that the norm in my Archdiocese is to stand).

The decision is within the right of the bishop.

The reasoning may be a bit lost. Most of us were used to kneeling at that time, and it “feels wrong” to many. But part of liturgical posture is that we are not constantly changing it.

We are kneeling for the Consecration up to and including (noe) the threefold Amen. We then stand for the Our Father.

At this point, the Agnus Dei, some kneel, some remain standing. For those who are standing, there is a continuity of posture from the Our Father through the reception of Communion (the dubium having answered that one may sit or kneel after having received).

So, essentially, it is a question of which is better liturgically: kneeling, standing, knelling and standing, or up and down twice in a short period of time, or kneeling, then standing - a change from one posture - kneeling, to another - standing, and maintianing that posture.

I will admit that having attended Mass for as long as I have, I still have a tendency to head down; it is almost automatic pilot. But I can also see that remaining standing makes for less liturgical change of posture, and that makes sense.

Some are bothered that at the minor elevation - Domine non sum Dignus, we are standing; but that is in large part because they always knelt at that point, and they are convinced that is disrespectful. But that is a matter of personal opinion, as standing is also a sign of respect.

Ultimately, msot of the discussion gets down to personal opinion; given that it is well within the authroity of the bishop to decide, I find that obedience to his directive doesn’t offend my sensibilites.

It might be noted that the period of time that we in the United States kneel before and after the Consecration is not the universal norm; the norm is actually a shorter period of time of kneeling.
 
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