Kneeling Before the Altar: A Latinization?

[Madaglan]

Christ is Risen!

I recently was watching a video of Pre-Sanctified Liturgy at a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (ACROD) parish. The video shows the Let My Prayer Ascend to you like incense part, and it shows the priest kneeling and censing before the altar. One of my Orthodox friends at church commented that kneeling before the altar like this is a Romanization (i.e. Latinization). Is this true?

He also said that the chant is not Carpatho-Russian (I thought it was prostopinije), and that the icons look Frankish (I think they do look a little Western, but nothing much different from many ROCOR and Russian churches).

Since ACROD is close to Ruthenian Catholics in tradition and history, I thought others here might know about this.

Here is the video if you’re interested in watching: youtube.com/watch?v=anked8yyTAU&feature=related

 

[Cecilianus]

Truly He is Risen!

I’ve never seen that before. I can’t answer from a historical point of view, but it sure looks like a Latinization to me. And if that was prostopinije, it wasn’t any prostopinije I’ve ever heard before. The icons were in that awful Western style that Tsar Peter (spare me the **** about “the Great”) afflicted the Church with.

I love the West in its proper place and context, but remind me to stay away from Binghamton NY.

 

[rowlands]

The priest should stand to cense, first before the Holy Table, then before the Prothesis, and for the final repetition of “let my prayer” he puts aside the censer and kneels before the Holy Table.

XB

 

[malphono]

I’m far from an expert in Byzantine practice, but the censing-while-kneeling business certainly does seem like a latinization. It even “looks wrong” to the eye. The movements are clumsy, and it just doesn’t seem to “fit” (if anyone understands what I mean).

The only times I’ve seen it done that way have been in certain Oriental Churches and even then only during “imported” services such as benediction, where the censer is even held and swung (if one can call it that) in the Latin way.

 

[Madaglan]

Truly He is Risen!

I’ve never seen that before. I can’t answer from a historical point of view, but it sure looks like a Latinization to me. And if that was prostopinije, it wasn’t any prostopinije I’ve ever heard before. The icons were in that awful Western style that Tsar Peter (spare me the **** about “the Great”) afflicted the Church with.

I love the West in its proper place and context, but remind me to stay away from Binghamton NY.

The hymn, to my ears, sounds quite similiar to what I’ve heard in another ACROD parish, as well as a Ruthenian parish I used to attend. So, I think the hymn is prostopinije. This video seems to give an example of what it should sound like: youtube.com/watch?v=t3KgYsQsnpM&feature=watch_response_rev

 

[Hesychios]

Christ is Risen!

I recently was watching a video of Pre-Sanctified Liturgy at a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (ACROD) parish. The video shows the Let My Prayer Ascend to you like incense part, and it shows the priest kneeling and censing before the altar. One of my Orthodox friends at church commented that kneeling before the altar like this is a Romanization (i.e. Latinization). Is this true?

He also said that the chant is not Carpatho-Russian (I thought it was prostopinije), and that the icons look Frankish (I think they do look a little Western, but nothing much different from many ROCOR and Russian churches).

Since ACROD is close to Ruthenian Catholics in tradition and history, I thought others here might know about this.

Here is the video if you’re interested in watching: youtube.com/watch?v=anked8yyTAU&feature=related

It may be a Latinization, but it is not on Sunday, so the Conciliar the prohibition against kneeling does not apply.

It may even be more appropriate in a penetential season, but it seems to be (not sure about this) an ACROD custom, which might make sense considering it’s long association under the Union of Uzhorod.

 

[dvdjs]

Madaglan, your Orthodox friend is dead wrong about the refrain: it is standard CR prostopinije. (see also youtube.com/watch?v=DOFLytIrrw4).

The elaborate melismatic prostopinije chant for the verses (patronagechurch.com/chant/Let%20my%20prayer%20ascend%20to%20you%20-%20Prostopinije.htm)
is being used here, and is not widely used AFAIK. But there is a nice English setting for them in Drillock’s (OCA) anthology. (It is not easy to sing well, but, of course, easy to sing poorly, and probably should not be widely used.)

Cecilianus, Your loss.

 

[ciero]

It may be a Latinization, but it is not on Sunday, so the Conciliar the prohibition against kneeling does not apply.

It may even be more appropriate in a penetential season, but it seems to be (not sure about this) an ACROD custom, which might make sense considering it’s long association under the Union of Uzhorod.

Why would it be a Latinization? In Greek usage (I’ve seen it on Mt Athos) as well as Russian usage (I’ve seen it it numerous monasteries in Russia and Serbia), the priest kneels while the choir sings, and the choir kneels while the priest sings. I’ve never seen it done any differently. What makes you think Latinization? There is much kneeling and prostrations during Lent.

 

[Formosus]

I do not know much about the Ruthenian or ACROD liturgical uses, but the chant definitely sounds like the same sort of stuff I have heard when visiting Ruthenian churches. The chant is definitely not a latinization if that is what is being implied I guess . The iconography definitely looks a bit western, but it still looks like a good parish and I would have no qualms attending there.

 

[Apotheoun]

It sounds like a Latinization to me. The priest, at least as I have always seen it, makes three prostrations before the altar, but does not just kneel there for an extended period of time.

ACROD was a part of the Ruthenian Church and perhaps it has kept some of the Latinizations present in that Church dating back to the 1930s.

 

[Hesychios]

Why would it be a Latinization? In Greek usage (I’ve seen it on Mt Athos) as well as Russian usage (I’ve seen it it numerous monasteries in Russia and Serbia), the priest kneels while the choir sings, and the choir kneels while the priest sings. I’ve never seen it done any differently. What makes you think Latinization? There is much kneeling and prostrations during Lent.

I said it may be, since others brought it up, but I did not offer the opinion that it definitely is.

There is nothing wrong with it on a penetential day. I don’t remember a priest kneeling at the altar, but outside of it yes. My experience is not as widespread as yours.

 

[malphono]

Why would it be a Latinization? In Greek usage (I’ve seen it on Mt Athos) as well as Russian usage (I’ve seen it it numerous monasteries in Russia and Serbia), the priest kneels while the choir sings, and the choir kneels while the priest sings. I’ve never seen it done any differently. What makes you think Latinization? There is much kneeling and prostrations during Lent.

I was under the impression that, despite the title of the thread, the issue was the priest censing while kneeling, not simply the matter of him kneeling by itself.

Could well be I’m mistaken about that, but it was the reason for my earlier post on just that issue.

 

[ConstantineTG]

We do the same thing but the priest doesn’t incense the altar while kneeling. I kneel on the opposite side with a candle (I’m serving) and we go around the altar. We would get up and the priest would incense while singing his part of the hymn.

 

[Vico]

Christ is Risen!

I recently was watching a video of Pre-Sanctified Liturgy at a Carpatho-Russian Orthodox (ACROD) parish. The video shows the Let My Prayer Ascend to you like incense part, and it shows the priest kneeling and censing before the altar. One of my Orthodox friends at church commented that kneeling before the altar like this is a Romanization (i.e. Latinization). Is this true?

He also said that the chant is not Carpatho-Russian (I thought it was prostopinije), and that the icons look Frankish (I think they do look a little Western, but nothing much different from many ROCOR and Russian churches).

Since ACROD is close to Ruthenian Catholics in tradition and history, I thought others here might know about this.

Here is the video if you’re interested in watching: youtube.com/watch?v=anked8yyTAU&feature=related

Stange comment indeed! Kneeling is Orthodox and Catholic, from ancient times. Have you heard of the Kneeling Vespers on the evening of Pentecost? (And no kneeling from Pasch till the evening of Pentecost.)

The Fathers of the Church have recommended bowing the head on Sundays, the Day of the Lord’s Resurrection. The lowest postures are penitential. There is also a deep bow (including touching the floor).

There are eight postures used in the Eastern Churches:
1 standing
2 sitting
3 inclining of the head and neck (bow)
4 bowing at the waist (deep bow)
5 bending the knees (kneeling)
6 standing on the knees (also called kneeling)
7 momentary touching the forehead to the floor (prostration)

8 longer bow to the earth (full prostration)

 

[5Loaves]

The kneeling and of course prostrations are something I’ve seen plenty of in Russian and Greek Orthodox especially during our services in Great Lent.

I’ve never seen a priest incense while kneeling. That is new to me.

 

[Vico]

The kneeling and of course prostrations are something I’ve seen plenty of in Russian and Greek Orthodox especially during our services in Great Lent.

I’ve never seen a priest incense while kneeling. That is new to me.

Me either. There are two versions of rubrics for “Let My Prayer Arise Like Incense…” that I know of. In one the Celebrants and Deacons and servers kneel alternately with the congregation, and in the other version those at the Holy Table do not kneel, but one or more move around the Holy Table with one holding the candle representing the Light Of Christ, to the right of the main Celebrant. In both the priest incenses while standing while the congregation kneels.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Me either. There are two versions of rubrics for “Let My Prayer Arise Like Incense…” that I know of. In one the Celebrants and Deacons and servers kneel alternately with the congregation, and in the other version those at the Holy Table do not kneel, but one or more move around the Holy Table with one holding the candle representing the Light Of Christ, to the right of the main Celebrant. In both the priest incenses while standing while the congregation kneels.

Thats what we do, but we do the candle and the moving around with incensing while standing and then kneeling.

 

[Vico]

Thats what we do, but we do the candle and the moving around with incensing while standing and then kneeling.

The rubrics in the 1997 Passaic version of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts does not mention the use of the candle around the Holy Table, but does include the alternate kneeling of the priest, deacon, and servers with the congregation.
Kneeling occurs on three sides of the Holy Table South, East, and North.

stores.homestead.com/hstrial-EBlaettler/-strse-LITURGICAL-BOOKS-fdsh–Liturgy-of-the-Presanctified/Categories.bok

For the Byzantine Catholic Church, the Levkulic edition was commonly used by Pittsburgh Archeparchy and more updated version in Eparchy of Parma and a different updated version in Eparchy of Passaic. Then in 2010 another (optional) version was released for general use in all the eparchies and archeparchy.

There are various versions among the related eastern Catholic Churches and the Orthodox (OCA, GOA, ROC MP, ROCOR, and ACROD) in North America.

 

[SVP]

Truly He is Risen!

I’ve never seen that before. I can’t answer from a historical point of view, but it sure looks like a Latinization to me. And if that was prostopinije, it wasn’t any prostopinije I’ve ever heard before. The icons were in that awful Western style that Tsar Peter (spare me the **** about “the Great”) afflicted the Church with.

I love the West in its proper place and context, but remind me to stay away from Binghamton NY.

While it may* LOOK* like a Latinisation, it doesn’t necessarily mean it IS.

As for whether the melody is “prostopinije” or not. it most certainly is prostopinije!

While you may prefer to stay away from Binghampton, NY, I would love to be able to visit the Orthodox side of my liturgical heritage. Wait another 25 years and see how you view things. I know my views have changed in this last quarter century of my life.

 

[dvdjs]

The elaborate melismatic prostopinije chant for the verses (patronagechurch.com/chant/Let%20my%20prayer%20ascend%20to%20you%20-%20Prostopinije.htm)
is being used here, and is not widely used AFAIK. But there is a nice English setting for them in Drillock’s (OCA) anthology. (It is not easy to sing well, but, of course, easy to sing poorly, and probably should not be widely used.)

I meant to say, of course, that the melismatic chant for the verses is not being used used on the links.

Here is a link to the prostopinije verse (track 2; Drillock’s version I believe). The refrain is the standard OCA Lenten response tone with minor mode harmonization.

musicarussica.com/discdet.lasso?-database=musrus_cds&-response=discdet.lasso&-layout=CD_Detail&ID=748&-search