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Vico
Guest
Eastern Christians have never been inculturated in the Latin way of expressing adoration, but there is penitential kneeling in the Lenten weekday Presanctified Gifts.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I was a western Christian then. That was one of several things that led me to the East.Eastern Christians have never been inculturated in the Latin way of expressing adoration, but there is penitential kneeling in the Lenten weekday Presanctified Gifts.
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Vico
Guest
They you may have been westernly inculturated and rejected it.Not to put too fine a point on it, but I was a western Christian then. That was one of several things that led me to the East.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
Well, as I said, it just didn’t feel right, even before I knew what the Eastern practice was.They you may have been westernly inculturated and rejected it.
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Solomonson
Guest
You don’t have to kneel at Easter in your orthodox state church, do you? I know we typically kneel in the West, but in the many eastern state traditions I believe most stand?Well it seems to me that the whole Church exercised its power to bind and loose at Nicaea, but that is a different topic.
As for myself, when I was in the western church, I never felt right kneeling at Pascha.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
We stand, yes. I am not sure what you mean by “orthodox state church”, but I am not aware of any Orthodox church which is currently established by a government.You don’t have to kneel at Easter in your orthodox state church, do you? I know we typically kneel in the West, but in the many eastern state traditions I believe most stand?
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Vico
Guest
The Greek Orthodox Church is clearly recognized as a state religion by Greece.We stand, yes. I am not sure what you mean by “orthodox state church”, but I am not aware of any Orthodox church which is currently established by a government.
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Solomonson
Guest
There are a rather large number of individual eastern state churches that some believe in assembly, constitute “orthodoxy” – despite the great and continued divide between some of these different orthodox state churches.We stand, yes. I am not sure what you mean by “orthodox state church”, but I am not aware of any Orthodox church which is currently established by a government.
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Solomonson
Guest
Yes, precisely. The Greek Orthodox Church would be one of the many orthodox state churches I am talking about.The Greek Orthodox Church is clearly recognized as a state religion by Greece.
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
“State religion” usually means that membership of in a religion is compelled or is coterminous with citizenship. That is not the case in Greece. Also I believe the governance of the Church and the state are separate. The head of state in Greece has no authority over dogma or church discipline.The Greek Orthodox Church is clearly recognized as a state religion by Greece.
It is true that the Orthodox Church has some state-granted privileges in Greece, but that doesn’t make it a “state religion” in the usual sense.
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Vico
Guest
In Greece it is only recognized as the prevailing religion. Where did you come up with the definition of state religion that you are using?“State religion” usually means that membership of in a religion is compelled or is coterminous with citizenship. That is not the case in Greece. Also I believe the governance of the Church and the state are separate. The head of state in Greece has no authority over dogma or church discipline.
It is true that the Orthodox Church has some state-granted privileges in Greece, but that doesn’t make it a “state religion” in the usual sense.
Merriam-Webster, state religion:
- a religion established by law as the only official religion of a state
- the official religion of a state as established by law.
- A state religion (also called an official religion, established church or state church) is a religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state.
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- Vatican
- England
- Isle of Mann
- Jersey
- Guernsey
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- Greenland
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- Faroe Island
- Tonga
- Alsace-Moselle (Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed)
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peter26
Guest
I have never been in a Catholic parish where people did not kneel during the consecration regardless of the time of year.
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Phemie
Guest
I have. We didn’t kneel at Consecration in our parish for about 13 years. We got a Pastor around 2000 who didn’t like confrontation. He’d do anything to avoid it. He got bullied by a few people who thought we should be following the Council of Nicea’s rule on kneeling and he eventually told me to put a piece in the bulletin to the effect that we would no longer be kneeling at any time during Mass. It was to go in the first bulletin in September at a time when he would be on holidays.I have never been in a Catholic parish where people did not kneel during the consecration regardless of the time of year.
I knew what that meant: Because I was chair of the liturgy committee everyone would think I’d used his absence to promulgate this new thing in the parish and I would be vilified. Knowing that, I told him that he was to either announce it before he left and then I’d put it in the bulletin or I was waiting until he got back to make the announcement. He made the announcement and left town. I still got blamed for it.
Fast forward 3 pastors. Picture it, Phemie’ s parish, 2013. A new Pastor arrives who can’t understand why nobody, or at least very few, people kneel at the Consecration. He stews for a year and then finally mentions it at a Parish Council meeting. We tell him that we were told not to kneel. He asks how he can reverse that and is surprised when we say, “Father, next Sunday just announce that from now on we’ll be kneeling after the Sanctus and everyone will kneel. We can guarantee it, they’ve just been waiting for the priest to tell them to.” Sure enough. We now kneel for the entire Eucharistic Prayer.
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Solomonson
Guest
That’s so terribly sad. Another example of a dearth of real leadership. I’m curious, did most people comply with the no kneeling, or did they just ignore it?I have. We didn’t kneel at Consecration in our parish for about 13 years. We got a Pastor around 2000 who didn’t like confrontation. He’d do anything to avoid it. He got bullied by a few people who thought we should be following the Council of Nicea’s rule on kneeling and he eventually told me to put a piece in the bulletin to the effect that we would no longer be kneeling at any time during Mass. It was to go in the first bulletin in September at a time when he would be on holidays.
I knew what that meant: Because I was chair of the liturgy committee everyone would think I’d used his absence to promulgate this new thing in the parish and I would be vilified. Knowing that, I told him that he was to either announce it before he left and then I’d put it in the bulletin or I was waiting until he got back to make the announcement. He made the announcement and left town. I still got blamed for it.
Fast forward 3 pastors. Picture it, Phemie’ s parish, 2013. A new Pastor arrives who can’t understand why nobody, or at least very few, people kneel at the Consecration. He stews for a year and then finally mentions it at a Parish Council meeting. We tell him that we were told not to kneel. He asks how he can reverse that and is surprised when we say, “Father, next Sunday just announce that from now on we’ll be kneeling after the Sanctus and everyone will kneel. We can guarantee it, they’ve just been waiting for the priest to tell them to.” Sure enough. We now kneel for the entire Eucharistic Prayer.
I have to wonder what was in the minds of those who pushed him to cease kneeling?
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Phemie
Guest
Most people complied “because Father said so.” I know, I did. There were a handful who didn’t.That’s so terribly sad. Another example of a dearth of real leadership. I’m curious, did most people comply with the no kneeling, or did they just ignore it?
I have to wonder what was in the minds of those who pushed him to cease kneeling?
What I can say is that the people who pushed were the Sister who became administrator for 9 months after that Pastor resigned due to health reasons and the diocesan catechetical coordinator who lived in our parish. Both strong women.
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