Kneeling During Eucharistic Prayers

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Brendan_64 said:
This reads like a load of nonsense to me.

Implying that kneeling represents a sense of unworthiness? Maybe we should also ditch the line, “Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”? And Vatican II did not ‘drop’ kneeling. I would ask your parish priest to quote whereabouts in any of the Vatican II documents was kneeling dropped.

This sounds to me like a lot of unsubstantiated ‘spirit of Vatican II’ nonsense, using Vatican II to justify things that were never written or referred to in Vatican II. Nothing stated here has any grounding in anything written at Vatican II. If that was my parish I would bring this to the attention of the parish priest and ask him to substantiate such claims. I wouldn’t let that go.
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Thanks for your thoughts; however, I don’t mind it, so I don’t think I’ll be pushing back on it.
 
“Someone” at that parish apparently does not accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council

Wherefore the sacred Council establishes the following general norms:

A) General norms
    1. Regulation of the sacred liturgy depends solely on the authority of the Church, that is, on the Apostolic See and, as laws may determine, on the bishop.
  2. In virtue of power conceded by the law, the regulation of the liturgy within certain defined limits belongs also to various kinds of competent territorial bodies of bishops legitimately established.
  3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.
  4. That sound tradition may be retained, and yet the way remain open to legitimate progress careful investigation is always to be made into each part of the liturgy which is to be revised. This investigation should be theological, historical, and pastoral. Also the general laws governing the structure and meaning of the liturgy must be studied in conjunction with the experience derived from recent liturgical reforms and from the indults conceded to various places. Finally, there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.
As far as possible, notable differences between the rites used in adjacent regions must be carefully avoided.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
 
Deep_Roots said:
Thanks for your thoughts; however, I don’t mind it, so I don’t think I’ll be pushing back on it.
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There is certainly nothing wrong with the Eastern practice, but it is not the norm for the Latin Church. As other posters have noted, the liturgy organically evolves over time - it is for this reason that we find such disparity between the various rites. It is the tradition of the Latin Church to kneel in adoration, and thus it is appropriate to kneel during the consecration. It is a matter of universal law for all to kneel during at least the consecration in the Roman Rite. Some dioceses require the faithful to kneel throughout the entire Eucharistic Prayer. I have never heard of a diocese, especially not in North America, where an indult had been granted to stand during the consecration. Unless a special indult has been granted that the rest of us aren’t aware of, your parish leadership is openly and deliberately disobeying the bishops of the United States and the universal norms of the Latin Church.

See Father David’s response above.
 
Deep_Roots said:
Greetings all. Recently my church has started doing a Q&A section in our Sunday Bulletin. Essentially explaining why we do what we do at our parish.

This week, the Q&A tackled something I was wondering about. I’m curious about your thoughts:

Given that I attended an Orthodox Church for 3 years before returning to Catholicism, I fully appreciate and understand this response. It jives with Orthodox theology and is, in fact, the far more ancient practice.

Thoughts?
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My parish probably read something like this several years back when they did away with kneeling.
I kneel. The present pastor approves of kneeling. Surrounding parishes kneel. Since I’ve been kneeling, some have joined me, but most have not. The pastor that “implemented” this said all parishes were going to be compelled to do so in the future, so get used to it. And the people bought it.
Their response to me: “Why would he mislead us”? No clue. I suppose he thought it was the right thing to do.
I kneel.
Whatever. Nobody is telling me I can’t.
 
"Why don’t we kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer during 9:30 Mass?

Standing – the practice of the early church – is actually the rule for conduct for the universal Catholic Church. However, during the feudal period kneeling was instituted, as the ordained took over the liturgical functions of the Mass further separating the lay people from action of the liturgy. While at the same time, a sense of unworthiness was added to the lay Catholic understanding and not receiving the Eucharist also became common practice. Vatican II dropped the ‘innovation’ of kneeling as part of its overall retrieval of the community aspect of Mass. Yet, many parishes today continue to kneel. In modern times kneeling is understood as an individual act of piety, and many feel it is ore reverent and respectful.
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I think what bothers me most about this explanation that it begins with two blatant lies: that standing is the rule of the universal church (it might have been in the canons of Nicea, but the Church has changed that rule, as it has every right to do) and that Vatican II dropped the “innovation” of kneeling. They go on to say that many parishes today continue to kneel, without mentioning that those parishes continue to be obedient to the Church, while your own parish does its own thing, in disobedience. The clear impression is: "We’re doing what the Church desires, while those who continue to kneel are not following the universal norms and Vatican II. " It makes it difficult to give credence to anything else that is said.

How and when did the ordained take over the liturgical functions of the Mass? I don’t understand what is meant by that. The liturgy was always presided over by the bishop first, then priests.

While in the East, kneeling has always been seen as a penitential act, the same is not true for the West. Kneeling is seen as a sign of reverence and respect. Yes, this developed with the feudal system, and the Mass adjusted to fit the sensibilities and piety of the people. This sense of kneeling in awe and respect is still strong in the West. For a better and more authoritative explanation on the theology of kneeling, try crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/814/Theology_of_Kneeling_Cardinal_Ratzinger.html
However, since the Eucharist is a communal act – not an act of personal piety – it is more appropriate to stand.
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This is somebody’s personal opinion stated as fact, based on the false premise that kneeling is simply an act of personal piety.

I am a Byzantine Catholic and I appreciate my own rite’s perspective on standing, but I have no wish to import that to the Roman rite. Even if standing is the more ancient form, kneeling legitimately developed in the West and should not be discarded lightly, and certainly not by those who have no authority to do
 
“Whatever. Nobody is telling me I can’t.”

Happy to hear it. I have friends at church who kneel too.
 
YoungTradCath said:
I hear Abp. Lori is pretty great.
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I don’t want to digress from the topic of this thread. But, I just wanted to say that I find it funny that everyone is talking about Archbishop Lori and that he was on EWTN for the Opening Mass of the Fortnight for Freedom and everything. This is because until either last year or the year before (I forget now), he was our Bishop in the Diocese of Bridgeport and just a quiet Bishop. Now, he’s pretty famous being in the Archdiocese of Baltimkre, which I know is fairly prestigious. I find that cool, and kinda funny! 😃 👍

Our new Bishop, Bishop Caggiano, is very good now though. I like him a lot, and have met him several times now! 🙂
 
Deep_Roots said:
However, during the feudal period kneeling was instituted, as the ordained took over the liturgical functions of the Mass further separating the lay people from action of the liturgy.
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The “ordained” “took over” the liturgical functions?
Vatican II dropped the ‘innovation’ of kneeling as part of its overall retrieval of the community aspect of Mass.
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Did Vatican II even discuss kneeling at Mass?
 
Good point…I don’t recall kneeling discussed in the documents…I’ll have to look it up though…
 
PaulfromIowa said:
Did Vatican II even discuss kneeling at Mass?
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As far as I’m aware it doesn’t appear in Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I really think that a lot of people (including some clergy) through Vatican II around to justify any changes or ‘innovations’ without even checking what the documents of Vatican II actually state.
 
I am NOT trying to promote standing during the Eucharistic Prayer but I do want to giver some perspective to “the controversy”.

I don’t know how the idea came about that standing for the duration of the Eucharistic Prayers was going to become the norm for Latin parishes. I imagine it came out of discussions before, during, and after Vatican II between clergy and laypersons of the various *Sui iuris *Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches. But it was apparently considered seriously enough that the bishop of the central Californian Diocese of Monterey made standing the norm for his diocese back in the 1970s. I do not know if any other bishops did the same.

Such ideas do not die easily (after a new code of canon law, a couple of new G.I.R.M.s, and 30+ years, the idea still persists) and as a result we have all those church buildings designed and/or built in the 1980s and 1990s which *never *had kneelers installed.

It doesn’t happen as much anymore but I have heard those who belong to some of the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) make somewhat disparaging remarks about Latin Catholics for kneeling.
 
SMHW said:
I am NOT trying to promote standing during the Eucharistic Prayer but I do want to giver some perspective to “the controversy”.

I don’t know how the idea came about that standing for the duration of the Eucharistic Prayers was going to become the norm for Latin parishes. I imagine it came out of discussions before, during, and after Vatican II between clergy and laypersons of the various *Sui iuris *Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches. But it was apparently considered seriously enough that the bishop of the central Californian Diocese of Monterey made standing the norm for his diocese back in the 1970s. I do not know if any other bishops did the same.

Such ideas do not die easily (after a new code of canon law, a couple of new G.I.R.M.s, and 30+ years, the idea still persists) and as a result we have all those church buildings designed and/or built in the 1980s and 1990s which *never *had kneelers installed.

It doesn’t happen as much anymore but I have heard those who belong to some of the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) make somewhat disparaging remarks about Latin Catholics for kneeling.
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When the GIRM came out in 1975, the US adaptations included kneeling for the entire EP and after the Agnus Dei. There was no provision for bishops to opt to follow the universal GIRM which had kneeling only for the Consecration. That changed at the end of the 90s when the USCCB decided to allow each bishop to decide EP posture for his own diocese.

Obviously it all changed again with the promulgation of the 2002 GIRM in 2011.
 
Phemie said:
When the GIRM came out in 1975, the US adaptations included kneeling for the entire EP and after the Agnus Dei. There was no provision for bishops to opt to follow the universal GIRM which had kneeling only for the Consecration.** That changed at the end of the 90s when the USCCB decided to allow each bishop to decide EP posture for his own diocese.**

Obviously it all changed again with the promulgation of the 2002 GIRM in 2011.
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This isn’t exactly accurate. The USCCB decided to allow each bishop to decide the posture for his own diocese after the Agnus Dei, not during the Eucharistic Prayer. Kneeling during the Eucharistic Prayer has always been the norm for the US.
 
Well, I have a serious problems with my knees… They absolutely will not let me stand during the Eucharist. Down they make me go.😃
 
SMHW said:
It doesn’t happen as much anymore but I have heard those who belong to some of the Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) make somewhat disparaging remarks about Latin Catholics for kneeling.
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I’m sad to hear that you’ve had this experience, and I have to say that it is totally foreign to my own experience.

I grew up kneeling in the Byzantine Catholic Church (except between Easter and Pentecost, when the pews were removed from the church. This was commonly done for generations, under Latin influence. When our bishops decided that we should restore our own traditions, there was considerable resistance from those who had known no other way. We had to be educated in our own tradition, and helped to see how this posture fits so beautifully with our distinct spirituality. We needed to be formed in our own tradition. Perhaps some were defensive or some were prideful. Either way, I have never heard Eastern Catholics or Orthodox make disparaging remarks about kneeling in Latin Catholic churches. It is foreign to our tradition. If we knelt every Sunday, it would water down the penitential meaning of kneeling in our tradition. Some of our liturgical services (Kneeling Vespers on Pentecost, for example) would make absolutely no sense, so would likely be dropped and soon forgotten.

This is absolutely not true for Latin Catholics. Kneeling in your tradition shows reverence, awe and adoration, and supplication. Think of the words to O Holy Night: " Fall on your knees, oh hear the angel voices, O Night Divine…"

As an aside, I am familiar with a small number of Orthodox churches in which the faithful kneel on Sundays, contrary to their own tradition. I have personally seen it in a Greek Orthodox church, seen pictures of it in a Romanian church in Italy, and heard about it in a Russian Church in Australia. I guess it isn’t only Greek Catholics who are susceptible to Latin influence. 🙂
 
SMHW said:
I am NOT trying to promote standing during the Eucharistic Prayer but I do want to giver some perspective to “the controversy”.

I don’t know how the idea came about that standing for the duration of the Eucharistic Prayers was going to become the norm for Latin parishes. I imagine it came out of discussions before, during, and after Vatican II between clergy and laypersons of the various *Sui iuris *Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches. But it was apparently considered seriously enough that the bishop of the central Californian Diocese of Monterey made standing the norm for his diocese back in the 1970s. I do not know if any other bishops did the same.

Such ideas do not die easily (after a new code of canon law, a couple of new G.I.R.M.s, and 30+ years, the idea still persists) and as a result we have all those church buildings designed and/or built in the 1980s and 1990s which *never *had kneelers installed.
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This is an interesting perspective, and helpful to know. A lot of crazy ideas floated around in the wake of Vatican II, some of them even championed by bishops. We can’t blame well-meaning people, even bishops, for embracing the change that they were told was coming. However, it has been 50 years since Vatican II. The church has clarified these issues over and over again. Those (in leadership) who continue along this path at this point have an agenda that they just won’t let go of. We still don’t have women priests. We still don’t have laity concelebrating the Eucharist. We still haven’t done away with confession. Contraception is still a sin. You’re right, some ideas die hard. Thankfully, that generation is aging as has less influence on the church than in past decades.
 
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