Kneeling during Mass

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Paganus

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Hey knowledgeable liturgical types,

This is my second Mass in two weeks (two different parishes) where kneeling is not done in any form during Mass. The first parish issued specific written instructions for those is attendance to refrain from kneeling in order to show “unity” during Mass. The second parish just did not kneel. At both parishes, everyone remained standing during consecration.

I knelt but it was almost like I was being old-fashioned or “holier-than-thou”, you know?

Has there been a change? Did I miss something?

Thank you for bringing me up to speed.

Paganus
 
no parish should tell you not to kneel. They should try and show unity with the church by installing kneelers.
 
I agree with the second post, install kneelers to show unity! Although standing is acceptable in some circumstances, it is the custom in the United States to kneel. Being told not to kneel, baring an extraordinary circumstance, is definitely a no-no. I recommend bringing this up to the priest, if no response then Bishop and continue up the chain if you still receive no response.

Remember - there are rules that have to be followed in all parishes throughout the United States whether a celebrant wants to or not!

Just out of curiosity - what diocese was this?
 
Grace and Peace,

At our large suburban parish, with 7500 parishioners, we don’t kneel nor have kneelers. The Bishop has visited at least 4 or 5 times while I’ve been a parishioner and has never said a thing concerning kneeling nor the need for us to install kneelers. Recently the parish newsletter gave a ‘defense’ concerning not kneeling along the lines that historically the Emperor Constantine gave an order for Christians ‘not’ to kneel during Sunday Divine Liturgies and that the parish was using this ancient instruction as a justification for American Catholic Parishes to not kneel. I don’t see the Bishop picking a fight over it right now. So much has been made of aggiornamento after Vatican II that I find it difficult to see how we counter 40 years of this kind of liberalization within the American Catholic experience. 🤷
 
If I am a parish without kneelers, I remain standing, though I feel VERY uncomfortable about it.

If I found myself within a parish that did not have kneelers I would be looking for one that did and attend there.

I’m not saying one is right and one is wrong, it is just that I was raised kneeling, I prefer to kneel.

Peace
James
 
From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of
the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the
intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
43. …
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or
recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on
occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other
good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects
after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop
determines otherwise.53
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the
faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to
whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

From the 2002 GIRM approved for Australia:
“43. … But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons
of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those
who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …
In Australia apart from what is said above, the people are to sit from the Preparation of
the Gifts until the completion of the priest’s invitation Orate fratres, and then stand from the
beginning of the people’s response: “May the Lord accept…” to the end of the Sanctus. They
then kneel from the completion of the Sanctus until after the Great Amen, and then stand from the
beginning of the invitation to the Lord’s Prayer until the completion of the Agnus Dei, when they
are to kneel again until the distribution of Holy Communion. During the sacred silence after the
distribution of Holy Communion, they may either sit or kneel.”
(See acbc.catholic.org.au/bc/liturgy/200707031933.htm and click on “Printable Version” to download a PDF of the GIRM for Australia).
 
After we go to commuion at my church, we are supposed to remain standing to be “one holy body” so we sing until the last person recieves the Eucharist and then the lady singing says, you may be seated OR kneel. Some people still kneel after the Eucharist, sometimes I do too, especially since sometimes theres not enough time to pray during the Sit or Kneel time. lol

Supposedly many people have said that standing shows more respect to Jesus. I dont have a quote, I have read it… But maybe you should research respect, worship etc??
Hope this helps,
Kristan
 
I go to a very ordinary parish (Australia) and most of the congregation kneels at the appropriate times even though not having any kneelers.
 
About 9 years ago our parish stopped kneeling at all. Oh, there are still people who kneel, but the parish as a whole was instructed not to. People have approached the bishop on the matter and his response was that if the pastor had decided it then that’s the way it was going to be.

Now, I know that the pastor was bullied into it by two very vocal women who even tried to have the kneelers removed from our church. He couldn’t say no to anyone so he caved. He knew the storm that was going to come and so tried to get me to make the announcement in the first Sunday bulletin after the summer, while he was away on holidays. Conscious that if I did that everyone would assume that as chair of the Liturgy Committee I was taking advantage of his absence to change things (in spite of the fact that this was a change I didn’t want), I told him to make the announcement himself before he left or it would wait until he came back. He made the announcement and left and I was still blamed for it. But the Bishop backed him up.

When it came to the kneelers, I suggested that we do a survey in the parish bulletin. I knew well that the survey would show that removing them would upset people greatly. I was right & the kneelers remained.
 
JRKH said:
If I am a parish without kneelers, I remain standing, though I feel VERY uncomfortable about it.

If I found myself within a parish that did not have kneelers I would be looking for one that did and attend there.

I’m not saying one is right and one is wrong, it is just that I was raised kneeling, I prefer to kneel.

Peace
James
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I’m not saying one is right and one is wrong, it is just that I was raised kneeling, I prefer to kneel.
me too

http://www.photosnag.com/img/4673/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gif
 
00tan30hh said:
I agree with the second post, install kneelers to show unity! Although standing is acceptable in some circumstances, it is the custom in the United States to kneel. Being told not to kneel, baring an extraordinary circumstance, is definitely a no-no. I recommend bringing this up to the priest, if no response then Bishop and continue up the chain if you still receive no response.

Remember - there are rules that have to be followed in all parishes throughout the United States whether a celebrant wants to or not!

Just out of curiosity - what diocese was this?
Click to expand...
I hope it’s not against a rule to say… but this was in the Diocese of Richmond (Virginia, U.S.A.)
 
John_Lilburne said:
From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“42. … A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of
the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the
intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
43. …
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or
recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on
occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other
good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects
after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop
determines otherwise.53
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the
faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to
whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

From the 2002 GIRM approved for Australia:
“43. … But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons
of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those
who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. …
In Australia apart from what is said above, the people are to sit from the Preparation of
the Gifts until the completion of the priest’s invitation Orate fratres, and then stand from the
beginning of the people’s response: “May the Lord accept…” to the end of the Sanctus. They
then kneel from the completion of the Sanctus until after the Great Amen, and then stand from the
beginning of the invitation to the Lord’s Prayer until the completion of the Agnus Dei, when they
are to kneel again until the distribution of Holy Communion. During the sacred silence after the
distribution of Holy Communion, they may either sit or kneel.”
(See acbc.catholic.org.au/bc/liturgy/200707031933.htm and click on “Printable Version” to download a PDF of the GIRM for Australia).
Click to expand...
There was no kneeling (or bowing for that matter) at any point in the Mass, however these are the instructions that were included in the first church’s homemade missal (emphasis theirs):

“Please remain standing (if you are able) through the entire Communion procession, including when you return to your place, singing the Communion song, as a communal sign of reverence for the Body of Christ. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
(#42) instructs that this posture should be observed by all “as a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered.” After all have taken Communion, and Communion has been sent to the sick, there is always a period of sacred silence, during which we may kneel or sit, and offer a silent prayer of Thanksgiving.”

This church also had a complete array of unfamiliar (to me) practices regarding the Eurcharist. I am not passing judgement on these, just mentioning that they made me uncomfortable:
  1. The hosts are very few in number, large and brown
  2. The parishioners “bless themselves” with the unconsecrated hosts upon entering the church
  3. The lector announces (before Mass) that everyone is welcome to receive Communion
  4. No kneeling or bowing before or after consecration
  5. One white chalice and five wine glasses are used during consecration
  6. The Communion procession begins with the back rows and ends with the front rows
  7. A single line is formed to receive communion, despite the large size of the church.
  8. Women are dispatched throughout the church to tap the shoulders of anyone remaining in the pews and urge them to join in Communion
  9. As each communicant presents himself, a tiny portion of the giant host is torn off and handed to them
  10. After all have received Communion, the Eucharistic ministers are blessed with great ceremony and sent from Mass to deliver Communion to the sick
I just chalked it up to being an unusual church, until I went to Mass in a different diocese and there was (again) no kneeling or bowing during Mass. However, the second church had none of the other Eucharistic practices mentioned.
 
Phemie said:
About 9 years ago our parish stopped kneeling at all. Oh, there are still people who kneel, but the parish as a whole was instructed not to. People have approached the bishop on the matter and his response was that if the pastor had decided it then that’s the way it was going to be.

Now, I know that the pastor was bullied into it by two very vocal women who even tried to have the kneelers removed from our church. He couldn’t say no to anyone so he caved. He knew the storm that was going to come and so tried to get me to make the announcement in the first Sunday bulletin after the summer, while he was away on holidays. Conscious that if I did that everyone would assume that as chair of the Liturgy Committee I was taking advantage of his absence to change things (in spite of the fact that this was a change I didn’t want), I told him to make the announcement himself before he left or it would wait until he came back. He made the announcement and left and I was still blamed for it. But the Bishop backed him up.

When it came to the kneelers, I suggested that we do a survey in the parish bulletin. I knew well that the survey would show that removing them would upset people greatly. I was right & the kneelers remained.
Click to expand...
Sounds like this might be up to the discretion of the parish priest. Maybe there is nothing to it then.
 
It is not up to the discretion of the pastor or the bishop. In fact, the GIRM calls for kneeling and the USCCB requested the Vatican to extend that to the entire Eucharistic prayer - from after the Sanctus (Holy,Holy, Holy) to after the Great Amen. Permission was given,so this is now a part of the GIRMfor the United States (and also many other English speaking countries).

Therefore, no priest or bishop has the authority to tell the people to do anything different.

If a church does not have kneelers, that does not exempt people from kneeling. Many people kneel in their own homes to say morning or evening prayers. They do not have kneelers, but that does not stop them from kneeling. If someone has knee or back problems, they can stand - or sit, if that is necessary for them. But, requiring the congregation to stand instead of kneeling is disobedience to the Church and should not be obeyed.

As for being required to stand while people are receiving Holy Communion, well that is just foolishness! The Vatican does not require this and, also states that it is the individual who decides whether kneel, stand or sit. Uniformity in posture does not indicate unity.

I sometimes attend Mass in a center that uses a multi-use hall for Mass. They have a carpeted floor and stacking chairs. No kneelers. At first I was the only one kneeling. Now at least 20% of the congregation kneels. We are required by the Church to kneel. Let’s all obey the Church.
 
Joan_M said:
It is not up to the discretion of the pastor or the bishop. In fact, the GIRM calls for kneeling and the USCCB requested the Vatican to extend that to the entire Eucharistic prayer - from after the Sanctus (Holy,Holy, Holy) to after the Great Amen. Permission was given,so this is now a part of the GIRMfor the United States (and also many other English speaking countries).

Therefore, no priest or bishop has the authority to tell the people to do anything different.

If a church does not have kneelers, that does not exempt people from kneeling. Many people kneel in their own homes to say morning or evening prayers. They do not have kneelers, but that does not stop them from kneeling. If someone has knee or back problems, they can stand - or sit, if that is necessary for them. But, requiring the congregation to stand instead of kneeling is disobedience to the Church and should not be obeyed.

As for being required to stand while people are receiving Holy Communion, well that is just foolishness! The Vatican does not require this and, also states that it is the individual who decides whether kneel, stand or sit. Uniformity in posture does not indicate unity.

I sometimes attend Mass in a center that uses a multi-use hall for Mass. They have a carpeted floor and stacking chairs. No kneelers. At first I was the only one kneeling. Now at least 20% of the congregation kneels. We are required by the Church to kneel. Let’s all obey the Church.
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very well said. how can anyone say it is not ok to kneel and pray before our Lord. At our very large Parish everyone kneels except for the elderly and disabled and remain that way untile the host has been properly stored in the tabernacle
 
Paganus said:
There was no kneeling (or bowing for that matter) at any point in the Mass, however these are the instructions that were included in the first church’s homemade missal (emphasis theirs):

“Please remain standing (if you are able) through the entire Communion procession, including when you return to your place, singing the Communion song, as a communal sign of reverence for the Body of Christ. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
(#42) instructs that this posture should be observed by all “as a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered.” After all have taken Communion, and Communion has been sent to the sick, there is always a period of sacred silence, during which we may kneel or sit, and offer a silent prayer of Thanksgiving.”.
Click to expand...
Cardinal George, on behalf of the USCCB, requested clarification from the Vatican on this very issue, specifically in regards to what is expected\permitted when the person returns to their seat after they recieve communion.
The July 2003 Newsletter of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (BCL) noted the "controversy … over the proper posture of the faithful at Mass after receiving Holy Communion.
Click to expand...
“In several dioceses people have been instructed that they must stand until the last person has received Communion, despite the long-standing custom that people knelt during the distribution of Communion”.
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“Numerous inquiries” received by the BCL led Cardinal Francis George, chairman of the BCL, to submit a dubium (doubt, question) to the Holy See’s Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDW) on May 26, 2003:
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Dubium: In many places, the faithful are accustomed to kneeling or sitting in personal prayer upon returning to their places after having individually received Holy Communion during Mass. Is it the intention of the Missale Romanum, editio typica tertia, to forbid this practice?
Click to expand...
Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the CDW, responded to the question on June 5, 2003 (Prot. N. 855/03/L):
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Responsum: Negative, et ad mensum [No, for this reason]. The mens [reasoning] is that the prescription of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, no. 43, is intended, on the one hand, to ensure within broad limits a certain uniformity of posture within the congregation for the various parts of the celebration of Holy Mass, and on the other, to not regulate posture rigidly in such a way that those who wish to kneel or sit would no longer be free.
Click to expand...
The BCL Newsletter continues: “In the implementation of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, therefore, posture should not be regulated so rigidly as to forbid individual communicants from kneeling or sitting when returning from having received Holy Communion”
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ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCLAR.HTM

The USCCB Commitee on the Liturgy printed this in their newsletter to the bishops, so each bishop should be aware of it. Obviously it hasn’t made it to all the parishes. But really, this is 6 year old news, how long does it really take for information to flow down from the chancellory office 😛
 
Paganus said:
  1. The Communion procession begins with the back rows and ends with the front rows.
Click to expand...
We do this (we actually start with the two smaller side sections) because of the odd layout of our church (built in the 80’s).
 
chrisb said:
Grace and Peace,

At our large suburban parish, with 7500 parishioners, we don’t kneel nor have kneelers. The Bishop has visited at least 4 or 5 times while I’ve been a parishioner and has never said a thing concerning kneeling nor the need for us to install kneelers. Recently the parish newsletter gave a ‘defense’ concerning not kneeling along the lines that historically the Emperor Constantine gave an order for Christians ‘not’ to kneel during Sunday Divine Liturgies and that the parish was using this ancient instruction as a justification for American Catholic Parishes to not kneel…
Click to expand...
It’s interesting that these folks are so eager to appeal to the early Church when it supports their disobedient attitude, yet would they be so eager to reinstate some of the other practices of that time? (Latin liturgy, severe penances, or even the meatless Fridays of only a few decades ago!)
 
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