Kneeling during Mass

[Mrs_Sally]

There was no kneeling (or bowing for that matter) at any point in the Mass, however these are the instructions that were included in the first church’s homemade missal (emphasis theirs):

“Please remain standing (if you are able) through the entire Communion procession, including when you return to your place, singing the Communion song, as a communal sign of reverence for the Body of Christ. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
(#42) instructs that this posture should be observed by all “as a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered.” After all have taken Communion, and Communion has been sent to the sick, there is always a period of sacred silence, during which we may kneel or sit, and offer a silent prayer of Thanksgiving.”

This church also had a complete array of unfamiliar (to me) practices regarding the Eurcharist. I am not passing judgement on these, just mentioning that they made me uncomfortable:

1. The hosts are very few in number, large and brown
2. The parishioners “bless themselves” with the unconsecrated hosts upon entering the church
3. The lector announces (before Mass) that everyone is welcome to receive Communion
4. No kneeling or bowing before or after consecration
5. One white chalice and five wine glasses are used during consecration
6. The Communion procession begins with the back rows and ends with the front rows
7. A single line is formed to receive communion, despite the large size of the church.
8. Women are dispatched throughout the church to tap the shoulders of anyone remaining in the pews and urge them to join in Communion
9. As each communicant presents himself, a tiny portion of the giant host is torn off and handed to them
10. After all have received Communion, the Eucharistic ministers are blessed with great ceremony and sent from Mass to deliver Communion to the sick

I just chalked it up to being an unusual church, until I went to Mass in a different diocese and there was (again) no kneeling or bowing during Mass. However, the second church had none of the other Eucharistic practices mentioned.

A couple of these items are real problems, but not all by any means
The large hosts are fine, as is the practice of giving each person just a portion. Of course, assuming they are made of just wheat and water and aren’t really pita bread from the store.

Communion starting from the back to front is no issue. It used to be that people would just randomly go up whenever they were ready. The singl line is not a problem either. Especially if it means that all are reciving from an Ordinary minister of the Eucharist.

People “blessing” themselves with an unconsecrated host is just silly. If the hosts actually are consecrated, but are left out for anyone to take that would be extremely serious!

The EMHCs leaving before the final blessing is not really correct. But since they do receive a blessing, I can see the sign value in the congregation knowing that the sick are being cared for.

The most serious problem is with everyone being invited to communion and then the beaters being sent out to corral the few remaining in the pews! I have never seen that before and would find it most offensive!

The chalices are also incorrect. There is another thread going on right now about glass chalices. If the wine is consecrated in the white chalice and then poured into the wine glasses, that is another problem. The Precious Blood should not be poured or divided after consecration.

This church sounds pretty kooky and there are enough serious problems, that if this were not my home parish, I would avoid it like the plague. If this is your home parish, I would make a good effort to see if the completely incorrect practices can be changed, but wouldn’t confuse the issue with stylistic things like the order of the communion procession.

 

[00tan30hh]

Here’s an interesting quote:
“Even deciding on norms can be contentious. The early Church Fathers routinely inveighed against kneeling at all on Sundays, saying that a penitential posture detracts from the joy of the Lord’s Day, our weekly Easter. Several years ago, when the U.S. bishops considered and adapted the new General Introduction to the Roman Missal, **they reportedly disagreed most over the standards for kneeling and standing.” **

from evangelist.org/opinion.html

Seems like this article is written to discourage kneeling… anyone know why? To me kneeling is the ultimate sign of respect to the Blessed Sacrament!

 

[YADA]

There was no kneeling (or bowing for that matter) at any point in the Mass, however these are the instructions that were included in the first church’s homemade missal (emphasis theirs):

“Please remain standing (if you are able) through the entire Communion procession, including when you return to your place, singing the Communion song, as a communal sign of reverence for the Body of Christ. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
(#42) instructs that this posture should be observed by all “as a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered.” After all have taken Communion, and Communion has been sent to the sick, there is always a period of sacred silence, during which we may kneel or sit, and offer a silent prayer of Thanksgiving.”

This church also had a complete array of unfamiliar (to me) practices regarding the Eurcharist. I am not passing judgement on these, just mentioning that they made me uncomfortable:

1. The hosts are very few in number, large and brown
2. The parishioners “bless themselves” with the unconsecrated hosts upon entering the church
3. The lector announces (before Mass) that everyone is welcome to receive Communion
4. No kneeling or bowing before or after consecration
5. One white chalice and five wine glasses are used during consecration
6. The Communion procession begins with the back rows and ends with the front rows
7. A single line is formed to receive communion, despite the large size of the church.
8. Women are dispatched throughout the church to tap the shoulders of anyone remaining in the pews and urge them to join in Communion
9. As each communicant presents himself, a tiny portion of the giant host is torn off and handed to them
10. After all have received Communion, the Eucharistic ministers are blessed with great ceremony and sent from Mass to deliver Communion to the sick

I just chalked it up to being an unusual church, until I went to Mass in a different diocese and there was (again) no kneeling or bowing during Mass. However, the second church had none of the other Eucharistic practices mentioned.

Are you sure this was an authentic 'Catholic" parish … perhaps you stumbled upon a church that was not really a catholic church … #'s 2, 3, 4 & 8 are wierd for lack of a better term … and speaking of #4 there should be a profound bow in the creed as well as the kneeling after the Santus to the Great Amen … a bow of the head at rececption of the Eucharist …

 

[Paganus]

Cardinal George, on behalf of the USCCB, requested clarification from the Vatican on this very issue, specifically in regards to what is expected\permitted when the person returns to their seat after they recieve communion.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWCLAR.HTM

The USCCB Commitee on the Liturgy printed this in their newsletter to the bishops, so each bishop should be aware of it. Obviously it hasn’t made it to all the parishes. But really, this is 6 year old news, how long does it really take for information to flow down from the chancellory office

Thanks for the post! I feel better about kneeling now.

 

[Paganus]

A couple of these items are real problems, but not all by any means
The large hosts are fine, as is the practice of giving each person just a portion. Of course, assuming they are made of just wheat and water and aren’t really pita bread from the store.

Communion starting from the back to front is no issue. It used to be that people would just randomly go up whenever they were ready. The singl line is not a problem either. Especially if it means that all are reciving from an Ordinary minister of the Eucharist.

People “blessing” themselves with an unconsecrated host is just silly. If the hosts actually are consecrated, but are left out for anyone to take that would be extremely serious!

The EMHCs leaving before the final blessing is not really correct. But since they do receive a blessing, I can see the sign value in the congregation knowing that the sick are being cared for.

The most serious problem is with everyone being invited to communion and then the beaters being sent out to corral the few remaining in the pews! I have never seen that before and would find it most offensive!

The chalices are also incorrect. There is another thread going on right now about glass chalices. If the wine is consecrated in the white chalice and then poured into the wine glasses, that is another problem. The Precious Blood should not be poured or divided after consecration.

This church sounds pretty kooky and there are enough serious problems, that if this were not my home parish, I would avoid it like the plague. If this is your home parish, I would make a good effort to see if the completely incorrect practices can be changed, but wouldn’t confuse the issue with stylistic things like the order of the communion procession.

Thanks for the post. This is not my home parish, but I was thinking of writing to the pastor. I definitely do not want to waste his time with nonessentials.

 

[japhy]

1. The hosts are very few in number, large and brown
2. The parishioners “bless themselves” with the unconsecrated hosts upon entering the church
3. The lector announces (before Mass) that everyone is welcome to receive Communion
4. No kneeling or bowing before or after consecration
5. One white chalice and five wine glasses are used during consecration
6. The Communion procession begins with the back rows and ends with the front rows
7. A single line is formed to receive communion, despite the large size of the church.
8. Women are dispatched throughout the church to tap the shoulders of anyone remaining in the pews and urge them to join in Communion
9. As each communicant presents himself, a tiny portion of the giant host is torn off and handed to them
10. After all have received Communion, the Eucharistic ministers are blessed with great ceremony and sent from Mass to deliver Communion to the sick

I’d avoid this parish from now on, if I were you. I am greatly concerned with almost each of those observations.

#2 sounds weird. What exactly do they do with the unconsecrated bread?

#3 (and #8) is contrary to the law of the Church. Only in exceptional circumstances may a non-Catholic receive Holy Communion in a Catholic church, and one should have fasted for an hour and be in a state of grace.

For #4, the GIRM says that if you are standing during the Eucharistic Prayer, you should (if you are able to) make a profound bow (a bow of the body) when the priest genuflects at the Consecration. (Does the priest make a sign of reverence at all?!)

#5 is also contrary to the law of the Church. “Wine glasses” are not proper vessels for the Blood of Christ.

#9 is absolutely bizarre. The Fraction Rite is done during the “Lamb of God”, and only in cases of necessity should Hosts be broken during the Communion procession.

As for #10, there is a rite by which ministers of Holy Communion to the sick and leave immediately. But “with great ceremony”? How is that?

 

[Irishmom2]

Will someone please tell me why on earth is anyone opposed to someone wanting to kneel? Please don’t answer that the rules have changed, or site the laws etc. I am asking WHY would we ever want to NOT be kneeling? (Health conditions etc. aside.) I just don’t get it.

 

[surritter]

Will someone please tell me why on earth is anyone opposed to someone wanting to kneel? Please don’t answer that the rules have changed, or site the laws etc. I am asking WHY would we ever want to NOT be kneeling? (Health conditions etc. aside.) I just don’t get it.

Pure speculation – maybe because their thinking is that we’re not supposed to grovel before God; we are worthy of being in His presence. Catholics shouldn’t be hung up on guilt…talk to God as you would a brother…etc.

 

[Irishmom2]

Well then Surritter, if that is what they think, they would be wrong!

Anyone else?

 

[dprewett]

Well then Surritter, if that is what they think, they would be wrong!

Anyone else?

I have come to the conclusion that a lot of people no longer understand real presance. I ask my children all the time how they would behave if Jesus was present at Mass. Then after show them that he is. My family Kneels before Mass to pray and thank God for all his blessings and without fail there is always talking and laughing around us. I think people are not raising children to understand the Mass and why they are there. It is starting to show more with every generation. Just a thought.

 

[Timoteo_H]

There was no kneeling (or bowing for that matter) at any point in the Mass, however these are the instructions that were included in the first church’s homemade missal (emphasis theirs):

“Please remain standing (if you are able) through the entire Communion procession, including when you return to your place, singing the Communion song, as a communal sign of reverence for the Body of Christ. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal
(#42) instructs that this posture should be observed by all “as a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered.” After all have taken Communion, and Communion has been sent to the sick, there is always a period of sacred silence, during which we may kneel or sit, and offer a silent prayer of Thanksgiving.”

This church also had a complete array of unfamiliar (to me) practices regarding the Eurcharist. I am not passing judgement on these, just mentioning that they made me uncomfortable:

1. The hosts are very few in number, large and brown
2. The parishioners “bless themselves” with the unconsecrated hosts upon entering the church
   3. The lector announces (before Mass) that everyone is welcome to receive Communion
3. No kneeling or bowing before or after consecration
4. One white chalice and five wine glasses are used during consecration
5. The Communion procession begins with the back rows and ends with the front rows
6. A single line is formed to receive communion, despite the large size of the church.
7. Women are dispatched throughout the church to tap the shoulders of anyone remaining in the pews and urge them to join in Communion
8. As each communicant presents himself, a tiny portion of the giant host is torn off and handed to them
9. After all have received Communion, the Eucharistic ministers are blessed with great ceremony and sent from Mass to deliver Communion to the sick

I just chalked it up to being an unusual church, until I went to Mass in a different diocese and there was (again) no kneeling or bowing during Mass. However, the second church had none of the other Eucharistic practices mentioned.

Nobody is mentioning the enormous problem with #3???

Also, I’ll post a new thread about this if I can’t find my answer…but I really would like to know the freedom we have in the U.S. to kneel or stand during the Eucharistic Prayer and after Agnus Dei. It sounds like we SHOULD kneel, but there’s nothing against standing (unless the Bishop requests kneeling be the pwoper form in that Diocese). That’s the impression I’ve got so far… let me know what you think.

-Tim

 

[HC27]

First post so be gentle!

This thread has been very helpful in explaining what happened at Mass on Sunday. I’m from the UK and this weekend there were some visitors from the US who attended mass at our parish. They stood during the Consecration, after the Agnus Dei and after receiving communion. This was something that I had never seen before and it seemed very strange when the rest of the church was kneeling. I had no idea that this was the custom in other parts of the church.

In the UK, you always kneel during the consecration, after the Agnus Dei and after communion. Some people only kneel for a short while after receiving the Eucharist, before sitting again, but I was always taught to remain kneeling until the priest sits down after everyone has received, and this is the norm in my Parish.

Personally, I’m not sure I would be comfortable standing at those points in the service, as kneeling just seems the natural thing to do to me.

 

[japhy]

I’m from the UK and this weekend there were some visitors from the US who attended mass at our parish. They stood during the Consecration, after the Agnus Dei and after receiving communion. This was something that I had never seen before and it seemed very strange when the rest of the church was kneeling. I had no idea that this was the custom in other parts of the church.

With no disrespect at all to our Eastern Catholic brethren (for whom standing during the Divine Liturgy is the default and near-constant posture), there are some Roman Catholics who prefer not to have any kneeling at all, despite the tradition of kneeling during the Mass in the Latin Rite.

It is not uncommon to find churches that have had kneelers removed (not just never-installed, but removed), where people either stand or sit for the Eucharistic Prayer. It is also not uncommon in those churches for those people standing during the Eucharistic Prayer to omit the profound bow after the elevation of the sacred species, when the priest is genuflecting. (They probably don’t know they’re supposed to make a sign of reverence, because they’ve never been taught.)

I do not have much sympathy for people who quote GIRM 42 (“A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy…”) in defense of their erroneous postures. What I mean is, in a parish where kneeling is possible and yet everyone stands, I should not feel compelled to stand in honor of some unity-in-disobedience.

 

[surritter]

All Latin-rite Catholics MUST kneel from the consecration (i.e., right after the “Holy, Holy”) until after the Great Amen. Exceptions to this are of course health or an outdoor mass or something like that.

The business about kneeling after the Agnus Dei is, I believe, not an absolute requirement – I think that individual bishops or bishops’ conferences can direct that one.

Same for after receiving Holy Communion – kneeling is not an absolute requirement; but follow the directives of the local bishop. My personal feeling is that I don’t want to have to stand and then wait for all who are receiving to have done so – this is a very intimate moment with Our Lord, so why do I have to stand there watching other people?..

 

[Phemie]

All Latin-rite Catholics MUST kneel from the consecration (i.e., right after the “Holy, Holy”) until after the Great Amen. Exceptions to this are of course health or an outdoor mass or something like that.

The business about kneeling after the Agnus Dei is, I believe, not an absolute requirement – I think that individual bishops or bishops’ conferences can direct that one.

Same for after receiving Holy Communion – kneeling is not an absolute requirement; but follow the directives of the local bishop. My personal feeling is that I don’t want to have to stand and then wait for all who are receiving to have done so – this is a very intimate moment with Our Lord, so why do I have to stand there watching other people?..

That is simply not so. The universal norm is to kneel for the words of consecration and stand at “Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:” and remain standing until Communion after which one may kneel, stand or sit as one wants.

The US kneels for the entire Eucharistic Prayer and maybe other countries do too but the universal GIRM (Latin version) doesn’t call for that. The US says to kneel after the Agnus Dei until Communion unless the local bishop decides otherwise.

 

[DaveBj]

At our parish (and the OLAM Shrine, when I go there) people kneel during the normal times, and I’m glad for more reason than just enjoying tradition. When I have to stand for long periods of time, my back begins to sieze up. The kneeling is a blessed relief.

DaveBj

 

[GaryTaylor]

Through age, damaged joints and arthritus I still manage to kneel at Mass, and in correct posture, as we were taught as kids. I even attempt to pray the Rosary at church kneeling. Though today I’m not so successful with that.

I believe whats important is how guilt effects you with this issue? If you are feeling guilty about this? There s agood chance its your supernatural infused sense of right and wrong telling you something. Its not simply the human emotion which is also real, and I acknowledge this. But I see a difference between the two.

If you could do this and feel you should be? Then you simply should be.

 

[Canto]

The US kneels for the entire Eucharistic Prayer and maybe other countries do too but the universal GIRM (Latin version) doesn’t call for that.

Australia kneels too. The GIRM #43 says that this practice “is laudably retained.”

Supposedly many people have said that standing shows more respect to Jesus.

There are zillions of OT and NT verses of kneeling for God. Two that come to mind are as follows…

Romans 14:11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend to me

Philipians 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth

 

[surritter]

That is simply not so. The universal norm is to kneel for the words of consecration and stand at “Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:” and remain standing until Communion after which one may kneel, stand or sit as one wants.

The US kneels for the entire Eucharistic Prayer and maybe other countries do too but the universal GIRM (Latin version) doesn’t call for that. The US says to kneel after the Agnus Dei until Communion unless the local bishop decides otherwise.

Thanks for the clarification. (But it is indeed mandatory to kneel for the consecration.)

 

[GaryTaylor]

The elevation of the Blessed Sacrement we were taught from our elders that if there is something you are asking for in your Prayers? Health for family, forgiveness of Sin etc. This is also the best time to ask?

Are any of you familiar with this?