Kneeling during the Sanctus, Our Father, and Sign of Peace at an Ordinary Form Mass

[Miserissima]

jr

Unless I’m reading you wrongly, I’d say this is physically impossible.

There is unity in a single Church when the congregation adheres to the rubrics of both forms, or rites, when each is, respectively called for.

There is unity between the Eastern and Western Churches sui juris where different expression is allowed through economy.

 

[Miserissima]

• But I noticed some of my fellow Sunday EFers there and I noticed someone choosing to to kneel during the Sanctus, the Our Father and the Sign of Peace instead of joining the congregation.

To me, that’s the issue. It would be different to ask a person from a different sui juris church to follow along with the postures and responses.

The EFers you cited are most likely familiar with both forms of the Mass, yet chose not to participate in the OF and therefore rejected the rubrics, denying the equality of the two Masses.

I can’t read hearts, but it is the responsibility of all Roman Rite Catholics to be somewhat familiar with both Masses and to act accordingly, to the best of their ability.

They do not enjoy the same rights as the Eastern Churches in variance of expression, because both EF and OF are supposed to be under the same Roman Rite.

 

[ProVobis]

The EFers you cited are most likely familiar with both forms of the Mass, yet chose not to participate in the OF and therefore rejected the rubrics, **denying the equality of the two Masses. **

Maybe defiant, but denying equality? How do you figure that when they’ve made the effort to seek out a valid Mass?

 

[Miserissima]

Maybe defiant, but denying equality? How do you figure that when they’ve made the effort to seek out a valid Mass?

Pro,

I’m not being confrontational, I promise.

But, “maybe defiant,” as you wrote: in defiance of what? Authority? Recognizing the equality of both forms of the Mass as equal?

Acting as if they come from a sui juris church and are “entitled” to not cooperate with parts of the Mass with which they are unfamiliar…or are they just plain uncomfortable yet can’t get past the “economy” that goes both ways?

There is a distinct difference between unfamiliarity between rites and disobedience to the rubrics, as in the Easterns who come to Mass versus the EFers who practice “civil disobedience.”

 

[ProVobis]

Acting as if they come from a sui juris church and are “entitled” to not cooperate with parts of the Mass with which they are unfamiliar…or are they just plain uncomfortable yet can’t get past the “economy” that goes both ways?

I’m not sure exactly what this means as some people go to both Eastern and Western rites but in my case (having sciatic nerve problems) I can’t stand for long periods of time, so please don’t be offended (or judge me) if I have to sit down when everyone is still standing.

 

[Miserissima]

Maybe defiant, but denying equality? How do you figure that when they’ve made the effort to seek out a valid Mass?

Let me try to clarify: actions of such defiance denys equality. How many OF folks are going to…stand to receive the Eucharist at an EF Mass?

Is there really a reason why a person who exclusively attends an EF Mass would not fully participate in the rubrics of an OF Mass?

I can’t judge their intent, but in this day in age, is ignorance of the OF a legitimate defense to not stand when others are standing? After all, an Eastern Catholic may be unfamiliar with both forms of the Latin Mass.

EF and OF Latin Rite followers, for the most part, are not granted the right to “mix forms” and do not have the economy to a different expression.

 

[LilyPearls]

I’m not sure exactly what this means as some people go to both Eastern and Western rites but in my case (having sciatic nerve problems) I can’t stand for long periods of time, so please don’t be offended (or judge me) if I have to sit down when everyone is still standing.

I believe Miserissima was referring more so to people who choose not to follow the rubrics at and OF Mass because they believe that while it may be a valid Mass it just isn’t as good, reverent, or pleasing to God as an EF Mass and therefore they will eschew “da rulz” and do as they please, thinking their disobedience is holy. Sitting through Mass for medical reasons is quite different. I don’t ever see anyone giving the lady in a wheelchair at Mass a hard time for not standing up. If someone did… Lord have mercy.

 

[LilyPearls]

EF and OF Latin Rite followers, for the most part, are not granted the right to “mix forms” and do not have the economy to a different expression.

What do you mean by “the economy”?

 

[xzereus]

Let’s just say what the Church has taught on how one should act at the Ordinary Form and be done with it. We’re Catholics, not Protestants, and we therefore follow the direction of the Church rather than personal opinions.
General Instruction Of The Roman Missal:

1. The gestures and bodily posture of both the Priest, the Deacon, and the ministers, and also of the people, must be conducive to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, to making clear the true and full meaning of its different parts, and to fostering the participation of all.[52] Attention must therefore be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and by the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common bodily posture, to be observed by all those taking part, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered together for the Sacred Liturgy, for it expresses the intentions and spiritual attitude of the participants and also fosters them.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance Chant, or while the Priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia Chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Universal Prayer; and from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated here below.

The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion.

In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]

For the sake of uniformity in gestures and bodily postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the instructions which the Deacon, a lay minister, or the Priest gives, according to what is laid down in the Missal.

 

[johnmann]

Its purpose is uniformity, not sacramental or moral. The GIRM tells us to receive Communion standing but we’ve been told by the CDW that receiving Communion kneeling shouldn’t be considered disobedience. So stand, sit, kneel, whatever. You’re not necessarily being disobedient but you are disrupting the unity. I also find it hypocritical for someone to rail against liturgical abuses but then justify breaking the rubrics in cases like this. Better to acknowledge that there are rubrics we like and ones we don’t. You want to kneel during the Our Father. The next person wants to hold hands during the Our Father. The former is actually the greater abuse since its explicitly opposed to the rubrics while holding hands is not proper only by implication.

Personally, I try to follow the rubrics to the letter but there are innovations/restorations I am fine with. Like holding hands with family during the Our Father and kneeling for Communion.

 

[LilyPearls]

Its purpose is uniformity, not sacramental or moral. The GIRM tells us to receive Communion standing but we’ve been told by the CDW that receiving Communion kneeling shouldn’t be considered disobedience. So stand, sit, kneel, whatever. You’re not necessarily being disobedient but you are disrupting the unity. I also find it hypocritical for someone to rail against liturgical abuses but then justify breaking the rubrics in cases like this. Better to acknowledge that there are rubrics we like and ones we don’t. You want to kneel during the Our Father. The next person wants to hold hands during the Our Father. The former is actually the greater abuse since its explicitly opposed to the rubrics while holding hands is not proper only by implication.

Personally, I try to follow the rubrics to the letter but there are innovations/restorations I am fine with. Like holding hands with family during the Our Father and kneeling for Communion.

I want to kneel during the Our Father, but I do not. Sometimes I want to yarl at my mother but I refrain from doing that as well. In both cases I find the loss is greater than the gain. I’m not trying to justify breaking the rubrics, I simply wanted to start a discussion about it so that I could better understand and I’m glad I did because every single response has been useful. (Thank you everyone!!) But you’re right, I am a hypocrite.

 

[otjm]

Of course they should be corrected, but for something as minor as kneeling a few seconds too early, perhaps consistent reminders in the bulletin or an announcement before or after the Mass would have done the job and been less disruptive. I was once in a parish in which everybody got up during the Great Amen, instead of after. When the priest finally decided to correct it, he didn’t need to correct everybody in the middle on the Mass.

I would agree with you if the interruption during the Mass was a frequent thing. However, I am not entirely convinced that there isn’t room in the rubrics to make a correction. And as to bulletins - only some take one, and out of those, only some read it thoroughly. So that is unlikely to get the point across; and with the tendency to come late, too many would not hear it before Mass. Maybe at the end, before the final blessing… in any event, I don’t have a problem with a rare statement during the Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

You want to kneel during the Our Father.

The kicker here is that in the EF you also stand at the Our Father, at a Sung Mass anyway. In fact, the rules are quite simple: you stand whenever the priest sings. (One exception: you sit during the Epistle.)

 

[johnmann]

I want to kneel during the Our Father, but I do not. Sometimes I want to yarl at my mother but I refrain from doing that as well. In both cases I find the loss is greater than the gain. I’m not trying to justify breaking the rubrics, I simply wanted to start a discussion about it so that I could better understand and I’m glad I did because every single response has been useful. (Thank you everyone!!) But you’re right, I am a hypocrite.

My comment wasn’t directed at you. I was speaking generally.

 

[Miserissima]

What do you mean by “the economy”?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_(religion

In this sense, the allowance, the indulgence, the latitude or mercy.