Kneeling Question?

[Torroidial]

In my Eastern Catholic church we are directed by the official rubrics to stand after communion. This has been reinforced time and time again by our pastor. About a year ago a rather large family left the parish after several years because a weekly EF Mass was started. No problem there. I do want to point out that each one was well aware of the standing rubric.

They all visited this Christmas Morning. How wonderful. All of them were sitting up in the front row and once they received communion they all knelt. I only noticed it because it made it very difficult for me to return to my spot, as it is not designed for people to kneel in that area.

I was thinking about how they would feel if 8 visitors sitting in the front row of their EF Mass felt the need to stand when the EF rubrics directs the faithful to kneel? I am certain each one would have been angry. I know others who share there viewpoint.

Is this one-sidedness just a local thing? Or is there something that tells such people “it’s always OK to kneel no matter what yet they must adhere to our rubrics when they visit our church?”

I really don’t know what to think?

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

“When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

If I go to a Latin Rite parish in which the liturgists have removed the kneelers and it’s standard practice in *that *parish for folks to sit after communion, or stand, or whatever, I’m going to kneel, because that’s what the rubrics of the Latin Rite call for. It’s not per parish, it’s per rite. Thus if people are visiting your Eastern Rite parish they ought to respect and follow the approved rubrics of that rite.

 

[Torroidial]

“When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

If I go to a Latin Rite parish in which the liturgists have removed the kneelers and it’s standard practice in *that *parish for folks to sit after communion, or stand, or whatever, I’m going to kneel, because that’s what the rubrics of the Latin Rite call for. It’s not per parish, it’s per rite. Thus if people are visiting your Eastern Rite parish they ought to respect and follow the approved rubrics of that rite.

Actually the posture after communion in the Roman Rite for the OF Mass is standing, sitting or kneeling. It is purely up to the communicant.

 

[Sgt_Sweaters]

Actually the posture after communion in the Roman Rite for the OF Mass is standing, sitting or kneeling. It is purely up to the communicant.

My gross ignorance notwithstanding, I still think I’m right.

Forgive me, I was almost sure kneeling was acknowledged as the preferred posture. Where can I find the answer? I’m looking at the GIRM right now and I’m coming up with nothing.

 

[Bob1]

Isn’t this the sort of thing the Pharisee’s would argue about. is it really something one should be making a fuss about. at least they are at church.

 

[Phemie]

My gross ignorance notwithstanding, I still think I’m right.

Forgive me, I was almost sure kneeling was acknowledged as the preferred posture. Where can I find the answer? I’m looking at the GIRM right now and I’m coming up with nothing.

The GIRM says standing but Rome has stated repeatedly that that does NOT mean that the people cannot kneel or sit if they wish.

1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.

They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.53

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Isn’t this the sort of thing the Pharisee’s would argue about. is it really something one should be making a fuss about. at least they are at church.

It depends on whether or not one believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[Torroidial]

Isn’t this the sort of thing the Pharisee’s would argue about. is it really something one should be making a fuss about. at least they are at church.

I wondered about this for two reasons.

First because it appeared those kneeling felt it was OK to ignore the Church’s directive within that tradition. I am certain these same people (who I know) would be offended if visitors stood after receiving communion at an EF Mass when everyone else was clearly kneeling. Is this common or more of a local-only matter?

Second I caught a glimpse of the priest (their former pastor) and he looked embarrassed for them and for himself. He had done a good job over several years catechizing these people on how to act in that specific church and now they seemed to have forgotten.

 

[Lujack]

It depends on whether or not one believes that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ.

If Eastern Catholics have traditionally stood, then it is not a sign of disrespect for them to stand.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

If Eastern Catholics have traditionally stood, then it is not a sign of disrespect for them to stand.

No, when I worshiped in an Eastern (Byzantine) Catholic Church, I stood for practically 1.5 hours. In the Latin Church the posture for worship in kneeling. I was replying to an earlier poster who wrote that this was Pharisaical nitpicking. I submit that it is not and one should follow the rubrics of the Rite that one is partaking.

 

[Bob1]

I wondered about this for two reasons.

First because it appeared those kneeling felt it was OK to ignore the Church’s directive within that tradition. I am certain these same people (who I know) would be offended if visitors stood after receiving communion at an EF Mass when everyone else was clearly kneeling. Is this common or more of a local-only matter?

Second I caught a glimpse of the priest (their former pastor) and he looked embarrassed for them and for himself. He had done a good job over several years catechizing these people on how to act in that specific church and now they seemed to have forgotten.

If it means so much to you. Do as our Lord says “Pray for them”

 

[Torroidial]

If it means so much to you. Do as our Lord says “Pray for them”

That goes without saying.

 

[Phemie]

I wondered about this for two reasons.

First because it appeared those kneeling felt it was OK to ignore the Church’s directive within that tradition.
Rome has already said that it’s OK and that those who do so are not being disobedient.

I am certain these same people (who I know) would be offended if visitors stood after receiving communion at an EF Mass when everyone else was clearly kneeling. Is this common or more of a local-only matter?

It’s common in standing parishes to find people who kneel because they have always knelt and will continue to do so out of reverence. Rome says that OK and to not impose on them.

Second I caught a glimpse of the priest (their former pastor) and he looked embarrassed for them and for himself. He had done a good job over several years catechizing these people on how to act in that specific church and now they seemed to have forgotten.

 

[Torroidial]

Rome has already said that it’s OK and that those who do so are not being disobedient.

It’s common in standing parishes to find people who kneel because they have always knelt and will continue to do so out of reverence. Rome says that OK and to not impose on them.

You are mistaken. What you suggest is simply not applicable in an Eastern Catholic church where the rubrics clearly direct the faithful to stand. But your comments do beg the question. Might these people be confused in the same manner? Might that be the reason they ignore the rubrics? I had never even considered that.

Still at least these people should have known through catechesis that kneeling is not more reverent than standing. I wonder why they chose to ignore the rubrics?

 

[Phemie]

You are mistaken. What you suggest is simply not applicable in an Eastern Catholic church where the rubrics clearly direct the faithful to stand. But your comments do beg the question. Might these people be confused in the same manner? Might that be the reason they ignore the rubrics? I had never even considered that.

Still at least these people should have known through catechesis that kneeling is not more reverent than standing. I wonder why they chose to ignore the rubrics?

I have to apologize, I missed the part where we were talking about an Eastern Rite parish. I thought we were talking about kneeling in a Latin Rite Ordinary Form parish. Mea culpa.

 

[Torroidial]

I have to apologize, I missed the part where we were talking about an Eastern Rite parish. I thought we were talking about kneeling in a Latin Rite Ordinary Form parish. Mea culpa.

No worries at all…

I would say though that there is at least one other time when it’s not appropriate for Latin Rite Catholics to kneel in some cases during the OF Mass.

After the sign of peace when the Agnus Dei begins, it’s up to the local ordinary if people should kneel or stand. It’s his decision unlike after receiving communion where one’s posture is fully up to the communicant.

If one’s ordinary said to stand during this part in the Mass it would be wrong to kneel. This differs a bit from those who insist on kneeling at communion and the Church has said they are not to be denied, but rather counseled on the importance of posture uniformity outside of Mass.

 

[Phemie]

No worries at all…

I would say though that there is at least one other time when it’s not appropriate for Latin Rite Catholics to kneel in some cases during the OF Mass.

After the sign of peace when the Agnus Dei begins, it’s up to the local ordinary if people should kneel or stand. It’s his decision unlike after receiving communion where one’s posture is fully up to the communicant.

If one’s ordinary said to stand during this part in the Mass it would be wrong to kneel. This differs a bit from those who insist on kneeling at communion and the Church has said they are not to be denied, but rather counseled on the importance of posture uniformity outside of Mass.

Actually, the American Bishops have said to counsel them, Rome has said they are not to be considered disobedient and are not to be imposed upon, that just because they gave the American Bishops an indult to permit standing to receive Communion it did not mean that those who wanted to kneel to do so were not able to do just that.

 

[Torroidial]

Actually, the American Bishops have said to counsel them, Rome has said they are not to be considered disobedient and are not to be imposed upon, that just because they gave the American Bishops an indult to permit standing to receive Communion it did not mean that those who wanted to kneel to do so were not able to do just that.

Actually when I read those documents concerning the Holy See’s response you are talking about, it was due to people actually being refused communion and that it was not to happen. I never read anything from the Holy See either explicit or implicit that discounted the importance of either unity in posture or the associated counseling.

I still think everyone needs to follow their bishops when it comes to the period from the end of the sign of peace to going up for communion.

It’s quite common for a handful to kneel during that period here, thus disobeying the bishop. No one really pays any attention. On the other hand I once visited a parish in another archdiocese where everyone knelt except the typical handful. This time they stood. Several people seemed angry they stood. I just felt the same as I do in my home parish. Some people ignore the bishop.

 

[Phemie]

Actually when I read those documents concerning the Holy See’s response you are talking about, it was due to people actually being refused communion and that it was not to happen. I never read anything from the Holy See either explicit or implicit that discounted the importance of either unity in posture or the associated counseling.

The original letter didn’t mention it. The next one quoted the first and added the part about disobedience.

I still think everyone needs to follow their bishops when it comes to the period from the end of the sign of peace to going up for communion.

It’s quite common for a handful to kneel during that period here, thus disobeying the bishop. No one really pays any attention. On the other hand I once visited a parish in another archdiocese where everyone knelt except the typical handful. This time they stood. Several people seemed angry they stood. I just felt the same as I do in my home parish. Some people ignore the bishop.

 

[Frosty]

I still think everyone needs to follow their bishops when it comes to the period from the end of the sign of peace to going up for communion.

It’s quite common for a handful to kneel during that period here, thus disobeying the bishop. No one really pays any attention. On the other hand I once visited a parish in another archdiocese where everyone knelt except the typical handful. This time they stood. Several people seemed angry they stood. I just felt the same as I do in my home parish. Some people ignore the bishop.

Up until about six weeks ago, we always used to kneel again right after the Agnus Dei. The week after our Bishop returned home from the Synod of Bishops in Rome, our pastor , instead of his usual homily at Sunday Mass, gave us a teaching lesson on the parts of the Mass, and talked about the rubrics and their meaning. He also spoke about posture during Mass, standing, kneeling and sitting. At the end he said that beginning that very day, instead of kneeling after the Agnus Dei we were to remain standing until after Communion. Apparently this is to be the norm throughout the Diocese from now on.
Naturally at that Mass when the Agnus Dei had been sung, everyone dropped to their knees as we have always done. I was near the back so could see pretty well the whole congregation. One elderly man half way up remained standing. Father paused and gently asked us to stand and most did although there were perhaps a dozen people who didn’t. In the weeks since, most people do stand but there are still the same few who kneel. I have found it very hard to remain standing because I have always knelt at that point in the Mass, both pre and post Vatican II. Kneeling has been ingrained into my soul. I am sorely tempted to kneel and rationalize my reasons for doing so. The Sunday after the new directive, I did kneel but just for a minute. It surely felt the most natural for me but in my heart I knew I was being disobedient so I quickly stood.
Whenever I attend Mass in a different Diocese or in another country, I always kneel or stand when the rest of the congregation does according to their norms. The very least I can do is follow the directives laid down by my own Bishop!