Kneeling Question?

[Sir_Anthony]

In the parish I attend, they stand, and I grew up with kneeling, and I will like to kneel, maybe one day I will kneel there, but I guess when in Rome do as the Romans do.

 

[Torroidial]

Up until about six weeks ago, we always used to kneel again right after the Agnus Dei. The week after our Bishop returned home from the Synod of Bishops in Rome, our pastor , instead of his usual homily at Sunday Mass, gave us a teaching lesson on the parts of the Mass, and talked about the rubrics and their meaning. He also spoke about posture during Mass, standing, kneeling and sitting. At the end he said that beginning that very day, instead of kneeling after the Agnus Dei we were to remain standing until after Communion. Apparently this is to be the norm throughout the Diocese from now on.
Naturally at that Mass when the Agnus Dei had been sung, everyone dropped to their knees as we have always done. I was near the back so could see pretty well the whole congregation. One elderly man half way up remained standing. Father paused and gently asked us to stand and most did although there were perhaps a dozen people who didn’t. In the weeks since, most people do stand but there are still the same few who kneel. I have found it very hard to remain standing because I have always knelt at that point in the Mass, both pre and post Vatican II. Kneeling has been ingrained into my soul. I am sorely tempted to kneel and rationalize my reasons for doing so. The Sunday after the new directive, I did kneel but just for a minute. It surely felt the most natural for me but in my heart I knew I was being disobedient so I quickly stood.
Whenever I attend Mass in a different Diocese or in another country, I always kneel or stand when the rest of the congregation does according to their norms. The very least I can do is follow the directives laid down by my own Bishop!

It sounds as if you have a wonderful pastor. He neither ignored the bishop’s directive nor did he just tell you how it’s going to be. He provided you with a lesson. May God bless him.

I certainly hear you concerns but I always try to remember I’m Catholic. If the Holy See says it’s up to the local bishop and the local bishop’s choice (through my pastor) differs from my preference or what I feel is best, I have to place my trust in God and His Church, particularly its Teaching Magisterium and not simply what I feel.

Because if I reject what it taught to me through the Church for what amounts to direct revelation (“I feel this is better”) then don’t I turn away from God and His Church?

 

[juniorapologist]

Hi all,

Thanks for the post and comments. Not pushing right or wrong here. I respect the opinion of others of course. However, I will always be a kneeler when possible.

youtube.com/watch?v=MIj-nD3qXVM

Check out this link…it’s pretty awesome. My question to the non-kneelers would be this. We all understand that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Now, let’s just say for the sake of saying that Jesus in his bodily form walked through the doors of the Church (that is as we understand human bodily form such as me and you).

Who would be on their feet at that point? Anyone? I think not. In fact, I think we would all be on our faces. So what is the difference?

Just my $0.02

Have a blessed New Year.
J.A.

 

[Torroidial]

Hi all,

Thanks for the post and comments. Not pushing right or wrong here. I respect the opinion of others of course. However, I will always be a kneeler when possible.

youtube.com/watch?v=MIj-nD3qXVM

Check out this link…it’s pretty awesome. My question to the non-kneelers would be this. We all understand that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Now, let’s just say for the sake of saying that Jesus in his bodily form walked through the doors of the Church (that is as we understand human bodily form such as me and you).

Who would be on their feet at that point? Anyone? I think not. In fact, I think we would all be on our faces. So what is the difference?

Just my $0.02

Have a blessed New Year.
J.A.

I don’t know about that. If He said “on your feet” as He walked through the doors of my parish, I doubt I would be struggling to kneel. I would hope I would heed His directive and stand.

That’s what we do when we follow the directives of His Church whether it matches our own personal opinions or not.

 

[Walking_Home]

No worries at all…

I would say though that there is at least one other time when it’s not appropriate for Latin Rite Catholics to kneel in some cases during the OF Mass.

After the sign of peace when the Agnus Dei begins, it’s up to the local ordinary if people should kneel or stand. It’s his decision unlike after receiving communion where one’s posture is fully up to the communicant.

If one’s ordinary said to stand during this part in the Mass it would be wrong to kneel. This differs a bit from those who insist on kneeling at communion and the Church has said they are not to be denied, but rather counseled on the importance of posture uniformity outside of Mass.

---

Actually the Church (Rome) has said no such thing as --“but rather counseled on the importance of posture uniformity outside of Mass”. What the Church (Rome) has clearly stated concerning kneeling is–no one is to be accused of disobedience, acting illicitly, And are NOT to be imposed upon. Seems the Not imposing upon someone who kneels over-rides the “counseling on the importance of posture uniformity”. Not imposing upon one who kneels – IS following the directives of the Church (Rome).

 

[Torroidial]

---

Actually the Church (Rome) has said no such thing as --“but rather counseled on the importance of posture uniformity outside of Mass”. What the Church (Rome) has clearly stated concerning kneeling is–no one is to be accused of disobedience, acting illicitly, And are NOT to be imposed upon. Seems the Not imposing upon someone who kneels over-rides the “counseling on the importance of posture uniformity”. Not imposing upon one who kneels – IS following the directives of the Church (Rome).

Actually the Church has said people are not to be refused communion because they kneel. I don’t believe the Holy See ever rescinded the need to counsel communicants (outside of Mass) on the importance of a uniform posture.

 

[Walking_Home]

Actually the Church has said people are not to be refused communion because they kneel. I don’t believe the Holy See ever rescinded the need to counsel communicants (outside of Mass) on the importance of a uniform posture.

---

I do not believe you will find the Holy See stating for the need of counseling. In non of the letters from Rome will you find such “counseling” being mentioned. What you will find as stated prior–is the statement that those who kneel are Not to be imposed upon. The “counseling” would be an imposition on the person(s).

 

[Torroidial]

---

I do not believe you will find the Holy See stating for the need of counseling. In non of the letters from Rome will you find such “counseling” being mentioned. What you will find as stated prior–is the statement that those who kneel are Not to be imposed upon. The “counseling” would be an imposition on the person(s).

I don’t believe that is correct. I think if the counseling was not supposed to take place, the Holy See would have said so in very clear terms. It didn’t.

Still my focus is one why some people who know better feel it’s OK to kneel in an Eastern Catholic church when the Church says to stand? These very same people would be angry if Eastern Catholics stood during kneeling times in the EF Mass. Why the double standard? Is this widespread or just a local thing?

Today there were maybe 6-8 who knelt when they should have been standing. These are long-time parishioners who come here because they cannot make it to the EF. They know better. They have been catechized yet they seem to think they have license to kneel. I approached one of them in the most tactful manner I could and softly asked why he knelt. He became very defensive and didn’t even try to answer my question. I asked our pastor in private and he did nothing but roll his eyes…

 

[Walking_Home]

I don’t believe that is correct. I think if the counseling was not supposed to take place, the Holy See would have said so in very clear terms. It didn’t.

Still my focus is one why some people who know better feel it’s OK to kneel in an Eastern Catholic church when the Church says to stand? These very same people would be angry if Eastern Catholics stood during kneeling times in the EF Mass. Why the double standard? Is this widespread or just a local thing?

Today there were maybe 6-8 who knelt when they should have been standing. These are long-time parishioners who come here because they cannot make it to the EF. They know better. They have been catechized yet they seem to think they have license to kneel. I approached one of them in the most tactful manner I could and softly asked why he knelt. He became very defensive and didn’t even try to answer my question. I asked our pastor in private and he did nothing but roll his eyes…

---

For the Latin Rite – Rome has been clear on the matter of kneeling for communion — “Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.” “Counseling” someone for kneeling —is imposing on the person. Furthermore the “counseling” implies that has been illicitness/disobedience in kneeling.

Now --as to what happened in your Eastern parish. The group who knelt may be under the impression that since Rome has clarified and stated people can kneel after receiving communion (applies to the EF and OF) – that this may also apply to the Eastern parishes. If they return – the priest should remind them to stand.

 

[Torroidial]

---

For the Latin Rite – Rome has been clear on the matter of kneeling for communion — “Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.” “Counseling” someone for kneeling —is imposing on the person. Furthermore the “counseling” implies that has been illicitness/disobedience in kneeling.

Now --as to what happened in your Eastern parish. The group who knelt may be under the impression that since Rome has clarified and stated people can kneel after receiving communion (applies to the EF and OF) – that this may also apply to the Eastern parishes. If they return – the priest should remind them to stand.

He already has many times. Both before and after the Holy See said those who kneel should not be denied communion, but rather counseled outside of the Mass.

 

[Phemie]

He already has many times. Both before and after the Holy See said those who kneel should not be denied communion, but rather counseled outside of the Mass.

That part about ‘counselling’ didn’t come from the Holy See but from the USCCB. The documents from Rome on kneeling for Communion make no mention of counselling, that’s in the American adaptations to the GIRM.

Does the GIRM apply to the Eastern Rites?

 

[Walking_Home]

He already has many times. Both before and after the Holy See said those who kneel should not be denied communion but rather counseled outside of the Mass.

---

Again — you are attributing to Rome – what Rome has not said. To continue to do so–is just disingenuous.

 

[06convert]

Each rite has it’s own suggestion of what should be done. It’s simply tradition. You can do what feels comfortable. Do as you were always taught, or follow the local custom.

The key is reverence to Jesus whom is exposed in body to the congregation. Standing or kneeling traditionally was a more reverant posture than sitting, but I have seen people sit too.

Do you believe that the host is Christ? That He is there in person? Do as you would do if he walked into your living room.

Would you stand? Sit? Kneel?

Jesus knows in your heart and what you think and believe. If you feel that it’s more reverant to stand in his presence do so. If you think kneeling is more reverant, do that.

 

[Torroidial]

Each rite has it’s own suggestion of what should be done. It’s simply tradition. You can do what feels comfortable. Do as you were always taught, or follow the local custom.

One can ultimately do anything they want, but that certainly doesn’t make it right. No we are not to do “what feels comfortable.” We are to do what the Church directs us to, so long as we are able to.

That’s why I’m still puzzled why some people would be defiant and kneel in an Eastern Catholic church when there is no question in their individual situations that they have indeed been catechized on the proper posture for the given church.

These very same people would be angry if Eastern Catholics took it upon themselves to stand throughout a EF Mass. I wish I understood the dichotomy of reasoning.

 

[06convert]

I’m not saying that you should do whatever you want and go against the Church teaching.

I’m saying that different dioceses have different directives on this particular formality of the mass. There is not a universally accepted method in the different rites of the Church.

Kneeling in a diocese where the congregation typically stands, or vice versa isn’t defying the Church or going against her teaching, or in any way making the mass illegetimate.

You can stand, sit, kneel, or lean against the wall through the entire mass and still fullfill your obligation. It might not be the most respectful thing to do, but your presence at mass and your prayers to God is what you are there for.

It doesn’t matter what the people around you think, do what you feel to be correct (what you were taught and what you practice) and reverant to God.

Some people bring their Bible to church, some do not. It’s what you have been taught and feel in your heart is correct.

 

[Walking_Home]

One can ultimately do anything they want, but that certainly doesn’t make it right. No we are not to do “what feels comfortable.” We are to do what the Church directs us to, so long as we are able to.

That’s why I’m still puzzled why some people would be defiant and kneel in an Eastern Catholic church when there is no question in their individual situations that they have indeed been catechized on the proper posture for the given church.

These very same people would be angry if Eastern Catholics took it upon themselves to stand throughout a EF Mass. I wish I understood the dichotomy of reasoning.

---

As was stated prior — it may be a misunderstanding on the part of those who knelt at your Eastern parish. If they return – the priest should remind them to stand.

 

[donr]

Well, there has been a lot of comments on this subject.
I have just moved to Northern California from Southern Arizona and was raised in Milwaukee WI. As you can imagine I’ve seen a lot of different postures. In WI, everyone would kneel but some would sit. ( I believe that its O.K. to sit if you have a medical condition). In Arizona our pastor directed us to stand, then we were blessed with a more conservative pastor and we all knelt. In my new parish they all stand. They stand during the consecration and they stand before and after communion. They stand until the Eucurist is safely placed in the tabernacle then they bow and sit.

I believe that if My Lord came through the door of my house and I knew it was him (I could only imagine), I would lay postrate on the ground in front of him until directed to rise to my feet.Then I would invite him in for a serious chat and possibly dinner. As with Moses on the mountain, he was directed to remove his sandles because he was on Holy ground. Not so much because the ground was Holy before but becuase the Lord was there.
I have directed my sons to stand when the congregation stands, however, during the consecration and when the priest says the Communion Prayer (This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper.) they are to show the Lord the most reverent posture they can (Laying postrate may be difficult beacuse of the pews).
It is the same as folding your hands reverently or lazily clasping them on your tummy. A King deserves a Kings greeting. Please kneel, genuflect and bow where appropriate.

 

[PJM]

In my Eastern Catholic church we are directed by the official rubrics to stand after communion. This has been reinforced time and time again by our pastor. About a year ago a rather large family left the parish after several years because a weekly EF Mass was started. No problem there. I do want to point out that each one was well aware of the standing rubric.

We catholics are advised (as in ORDERED) by our bishops to also stand.

When I researched there reason for the change in posture, I discovered it was :“so we would ALL have a common position.”

It occurred to me that when we were ALL KNEELING in the REAL PRESENCE of our Creator, Jesus Christ, we WERE in a common position, and it was a GOD ONLY “latria” Worship position.

So what is the real reason? Hmmmmm

This next advise is my personal opinion, please take it as such.

As often as prudent, if I’m not making a scene, my wife and O kneel. There have been a few times that we have stood, when it seemed the chairitable thing to do.

Mass is about Christ, and only secoundly in a much smaller way about us. If and when I am blesswd to be in the presence of MY GOD, I shall honor hom accordingly.

They all visited this Christmas Morning. How wonderful. All of them were sitting up in the front row and once they received communion they all knelt. I only noticed it because it made it very difficult for me to return to my spot, as it is not designed for people to kneel in that area.

If they are in a blocking position they too should have STOOD or let the others pass infront of them kneeling.

I was thinking about how they would feel if 8 visitors sitting in the front row of their EF Mass felt the need to stand when the EF rubrics directs the faithful to kneel? I am certain each one would have been angry. I know others who share there viewpoint.

Is this one-sidedness just a local thing? Or is there something that tells such people “it’s always OK to kneel no matter what yet they must adhere to our rubrics when they visit our church?”

I really don’t know what to think?

It is a National directive from the USCCB etal?

Charity, always with Charity

God bless,
PJM m.c.

 

[donr]

I love it when the readings of the day answer the questions for us. If you were at Mass this past Sunday, you would have heard that the three wise men after following the star came upon the cave where Jesus was and lay prostrate on the ground in front of him. If it is good enough for three kings to show so much honor to a baby, I a humble shepard boy should do at least as much.