Kneeling to receive the Eucharist

[Francis_C]

Oh my goodness, it seems many do not care what the Pope and Congregation for Divine Worship have had to say about kneeling to receive the Eucharist. We are allowed to stand, even though it is preferred to kneel. I have been counseled and I did not appreciate it. Everyone in our church kneels on both knees for adoration but most just nod at communion. We are trying to stop something good and you know that is wrong. I went to Mass in the Saginaw Diocese at a church which in the past was fine but now is not fine: the is no crucifix, only a small cross on a pole; the tabernacle is gone, moved to a separate room; the kneelers are gone; there are no statues; during the homily the priest over and over said that our families should be the most important part of our lives; half of the people entered from behind the altar, and walked past the room with the Tabernacle without any show of reverance; the wine was consecrated in a glass pitcher and then poured into cups; after communion the cups (some still containing the precious blood of Christ) were taken by the extraordinary ministers into the room with the Tabernacle. I almost cried. They have removed God from the Catholic churches in the Saginaw Diocese of Michigan. In your heart you know these things are wrong. In your heart you know that kneeling for communion is not wrong.

From Rome

Congregation for Divine Worship

**CDW Letters on Denying Communion

**

Letter to a Bishop

Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. xxxx/02/L
xx July 2002

Your Excellency,

In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (Canon 843 s. 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary

Another Letter to a Lay Person

Congregatio de Culto Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum
Prot. N. xxxx/02/L
Rome, xx February, 2003

Dear _______:

.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion.”

With every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,
Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary

 

[Matthaeus]

Francis C.:

Oh my goodness, it seems many do not care what the Pope and Congregation for Divine Worship have had to say about kneeling to receive the Eucharist. We are allowed to stand, even though it is preferred to kneel…

The normative posture to receive Holy Communion at the normative Mass in the USA is standing. This issues has been debated to death but it dosen’t change anything. Standing is normative.

 

[CrusaderNY]

Well, I agree it is normative, that is before the altar rails were ripped out to make firewood, we all used to kneel and receive our Lord on our tongue, which is much more holy than a little “nod” in my opinion. But in todays mass it is I assume normative to stand, though many still kneel but get looked at funny, the same for genuflecting or any sign of reverence.

Matthaeus:

The normative posture to receive Holy Communion at the normative Mass in the USA is standing. This issues has been debated to death but it dosen’t change anything. Standing is normative.

 

[frommi]

CrusaderNY:

Well, I agree it is normative, that is before the altar rails were ripped out to make firewood, we all used to kneel and receive our Lord on our tongue, which is much more holy than a little “nod” in my opinion. But in todays mass it is I assume normative to stand, though many still kneel but get looked at funny, the same for genuflecting or any sign of reverence.

Actually…in my church in that diocese, the communion rail marble was used to construct the new altar…and a dignified place for the repose of the blessed sacrament.

But please, continue generalizing.

 

[Mysty101]

CrusaderNY:

Well, I agree it is normative, that is before the altar rails were ripped out to make firewood, we all used to kneel and receive our Lord on our tongue, which is much more holy than a little “nod” in my opinion. But in todays mass it is I assume normative to stand, though many still kneel but get looked at funny, the same for genuflecting or any sign of reverence.

I was talking to a seminarian — He was counseled to follow the norms when attending Mass at his local parish. The norm for standing was determined to be in the best interest of the community, and anyone who insists on their personal preference is looked upon as saying, “Look at me.” Mass is community worship, and the norms are to be followed.

In the seminary, the floor of the adoration chapel is carpeted, but most Seminarians will not lay prostrate unless they are alone.

 

[CrusaderNY]

Question, and I guess I will generalize a little more…Can you even find the tabernacle or even the blessed sacrement? It used to be right behind the altar, where the holy sacrifice of the mass took place (I guess we now call it the Lords Supper in the new Missals, as that is what the Protestants wanted), hence the reason why we used to genuflect every time we passed in front of the tabernacle or from the left to right or right to left side of the church as you passed in the aisle and hence the tabernacle…Oh I am sorry for the generalizing, just reminising a bit here, thinking of the more reverent days gone by…

frommi:

Actually…in my church in that diocese, the communion rail marble was used to construct the new altar…and a dignified place for the repose of the blessed sacrament.

But please, continue generalizing.

 

[misericordie]

Matthaeus:

The normative posture to receive Holy Communion at the normative Mass in the USA is standing. This issues has been debated to death but it dosen’t change anything. Standing is normative.

Did you actually take the time to read the above letter?? The Bishops can say standing all they want, but as these letters clearly state, the bishops cardinals etc, can and at times are OVERRULED by the Holy See of ROME. No Bishop, Pastor, parish priest religious, nun, whoever inder the sun (BUT THE POPE) can tell catholics NOT to kneel, and worse yet, deny Communion on that basis. I have seen two priests: One a RELGIOUS ORDER and the other a diocesan priest deny communion on that basis and they were CANONICALLY stripped of their FACULTIES.

 

[TNT]

CrusaderNY:

Well, I agree it is normative, that is before the altar rails were ripped out to make firewood, we all used to kneel and receive our Lord on our tongue, which is much more holy than a little “nod” in my opinion. But in todays mass it is I assume normative to stand …

In the Bible for the majority of verses, when one is kneeling or told to “bend the knee” it is for adoration. When one is standing or told to stand, it is for being judged. Hence, “all rise for judge so and so…” and again “the defendent will rise to hear the verdict” still used in major courts which historically went to the bible for protocol in honor and judgement.

So, the symbol of standing may really mean something in the NOM. What are those bishops’ conferences really telling us?

 

[Mysty101]

misericordie:

I have seen two priests: One a RELGIOUS ORDER and the other a diocesan priest deny communion on that basis and they were CANONICALLY stripped of their FACULTIES.

Every time we have this discussion denying Communion comes up. No one is talking about denying Communion.

We are speaking of following the norms and acting in Community. If you can attend a parish where the norm is what you prefer, this is good, but the liturgy is public community worship, and your personal preferences are to be set aside.

 

[TNT]

Mysty101:

Every time we have this discussion denying Communion comes up. No one is talking about denying Communion.

We are speaking of following the norms and acting in Community. If you can attend a parish where the norm is what you prefer, this is good, but the liturgy is public community worship, and your personal preferences are to be set aside.

Actually, not just personal preference, but objectively centuries of liturgical tradition that had no outcry of objection from the laity. It is entirely a “bishops’ Conference” idea out of nowhere. It appears to the laity as “change for change sake” or worse if there was a motive. Is that an act of charity toward the Faithful?
Yes or no?:nope:

 

[Mysty101]

Read my signature

 

[TNT]

misericordie:

…I have seen two priests: One a RELGIOUS ORDER and the other a diocesan priest deny communion on that basis …

That’s because it is an infinitely worse offense than a pro-abortion public figure which receives communion regularly, IF they stand up, of course. Kneeling offends group-think not to mention “simon-says”.:bowdown:

 

[TNT]

Mysty101:

Read my signature

And mine, which is the real agenda. Removal of Liturgical tradition is limited in speed only by the ability to supress outrage of the Faithful. Witness, you don’t see any traditions returning except in the Latin Mass communities where attendence is above 85%.
If obedience is against a theological virtue, it is a sin.
In this case, Charity toward the vast majority of the Faithful.
That’s why Rome says all bishops must allow kneeling. Which would mean they must provide for the reasonable access to kneeling.
**So, are the bishops obeying Rome? Yes or no?:nope: **
The sword of obedience is 2 edged.

 

[TNT]

Mysty101:

Read my signature

I have a suspicion that Mysty101 is a mole or employee of the bishop’s conference. So, whatever is said, the bishops’ Conference trumps it. And with that, there is no fruitful mutual discussion possible. It’s my way or the hiway.
ie. to hades with your tradition, feelings, faith, piety, or conscience.

 

[Mysty101]

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

If the seminarians are advised to follow the norms in community worship, why should anyone else do less?

Can the arm act independently of the body? If it is cut off can it do anything? All the norms in the US have been approved by Rome, and we are told by Rome to obey our Bishop.

No, I am not a mole or employee of the USCCB—I am a servant of my Lord, Jesus Christ who said “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven…”

 

[Mysty101]

TNT:

That’s why Rome says all bishops must allow kneeling.

not exactly --from the GIRM

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

from RS

1. “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined,” with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms.”176

from “Reception of HC”

The new edition of the General Instruction asks the Conference of Bishops in each country to determine the posture to be used for the reception of Communion and the act of reverence to be made by each person as he or she receives Communion. The Conference of Bishops of the United States has determined that in this country Communion will be received standing and that a bow will be the act of reverence made by those receiving. These norms may require some adjustment on the part of those who have been used to other practices, however the significance of unity in posture and gesture as a symbol of our unity as members of the one body of Christ should be the governing factor in our own actions.

 

[misericordie]

Mysty101:

Every time we have this discussion denying Communion comes up. No one is talking about denying Communion.

We are speaking of following the norms and acting in Community. If you can attend a parish where the norm is what you prefer, this is good, but the liturgy is public community worship, and your personal preferences are to be set aside.

In a way we actually ar4e, one cannot talk about air without saying it contains oxygeon. As the ABOVE letters clearly state (issued AFTER GIRM) ALL WHO WISH, CAN KNEEL. Or Rome says, or Rome says.

 

[TNT]

Mysty101:

not exactly --from the GIRM…

from “Reception of HC”
providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

Fill in my ignorance. What were the reasons for this norm that were made known?
Were not all kneeling without disturbance before? Say for 800 years or so.

 

[TNT]

misericordie:

.

Do NOT get suspended again! The whole platoon was ousted and I was by myself !

ps your location is a little general. Are you wanted elsewhere for something?

 

[Matthaeus]

This thread prefectly illustrates how some people wish to follow what they believe is “best”, versus what the Catholic Church actually directs.

In some circles said persons would be called Protestant Christians rather than Catholic Christians.

The Church has spoken:

"GIRM #160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.
The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood."

Q.E.D.