Kneeling to receive the Eucharist

[JKirkLVNV]

RSiscoe:

Say what you like about Mr. E, but that priest will think twice before he refusing someone communion for kneeling. In my opinion, the Church needs more people like Mr. E. These liberals have gotten away with way too much destruction. It’s about time people start standing up to the “wolves” who are destroying the faith.

In this instance, I fail to see how “liberals” have tried to destroy anything. “They” are simply being obedient to a directive.

 

[RSiscoe]

JKirkLVNV:

Did this happen after we were asked to rec. standing? If so, I would say not a very good Marine, ie, unable to accept a directive from a superior. Of course, he shouldn’t have been denied Holy Communion, as that is also against the directive. But he should have taken the proper steps. I certainly hope he enjoyed the attention he got. I think that’s what most of this is about…stubborn pride “a lengthening of prayer tassels,” as Our Lord said (paraphrased). Did he yell at the priest in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament? Did he give scandal by doing it in front of the altar boys? How terribly humble and obedient.

I disagree. These “wolves in sheeps clothing” have been widdling away at the faith for 40 years now. It is about time people stand up to them. I am sure he did not do what he did to be seen by others, any more than Jesus did when He chased the money changers out of the temple.

There is something called “righteous anger”, which is appropriate in certain circumstances (such as today). I will give two examples: one is when Jesus took a rope and chased the money changers out of the temple, turning over their tables. That is one example.

The next example is, in my opinion, a direct parallel to what is taking place today. In first Machabees, chapter 1, we are told the story of Antiochus the Illustrious, who led the Jews into error. Antiochus, who is a “type” of the antichrist, tried to unite all of the religions into one big eccumenical church, by teaching that “all peoples should be one” (vs. 43). He stripped the churches (vs. 23-24), just like the enemies within the Catholic Church are doing. He deceived them by “speaking peaceable words in deceipt” (vs 31), just like today; and the church was in a state of confusion (vs 29), just like today.

There was a group of “schismatic” Jews in those days who would have nothing to do with this false ecumenical Church (vs. 56), who attempted to change everything… When one of the ecumenical priest came along to sacrifice to a false god, one of the “schismatics” who refused to part from the old law, actually killed him! (ch. 2, vs 24) as well as the person that brought him there (vs 25). What does the Bible say about this killing? Does it say he should not have intefered with the priest’s sacrifice? Does it say that he was acting prideful? No. It actually compliments him, saying that he “showed great zeal for the law” (vs 26).

The point is, when the faith is being attacked to the extent that it is today, and when God is being offended as He is today by these wolves, we need to take a stand. The priest’s who refuse to obey Rome do not deserve our obedience: they deserve our resistance.

Unfortunately, many people hide behind false obedience to these disobedient priests (wolves) and refuse to stand up for the truth. They are cowards who use “obedience” to justify their cowardice. That may appear obedient to some, but others see it for what it is.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

RSiscoe:

I disagree. These “wolves in sheeps clothing” have been widdling away at the faith for 40 years now. It is about time people stand up to them. I am sure he did not do what he did to be seen by others, any more than Jesus did when He chased the money changers out of the temple. Who then is the “wolf?” The Holy See?

There is something called “righteous anger”, which is appropriate in certain circumstances (such as today). I will give two examples: one is when Jesus took a rope and chased the money changers out of the temple, turning over their tables. That is one example. Yes, this is often cited as an example when people want to justify an angry episode. Jesus, however, is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. He is God Himself. He can do, and does do, many things that we as creatures should hesitate to do.

The next example is, in my opinion, a direct parallel to what is taking place today. In first Machabees, chapter 1, we are told the story of Antiochus the Illustrious, who led the Jews into error. Antiochus, who is a “type” of the antichrist, tried to unite all of the religions into one big eccumenical church, by teaching that “all peoples should be one” (vs. 43). He stripped the churches (vs. 23-24), just like the enemies within the Catholic Church are doing. He deceived them by “speaking peaceable words in deceipt” (vs 31), just like today; and the church was in a state of confusion (vs 29), just like today. *** I fail to see how the directive to stand (as the norm for the Church in America) for the reception of Holy Communion is “anti-christ.” This begins to sound like conspiracy theories. While I’m certain Satan is conspiring against Christ’s Church, I don’t see not kneeling for the reception of Communion as being even the beginning of a slippery slope. Is the hierarchy denying the Real Presence? Are they catechising the faithful that Jesus is not present in the Species?***

There was a group of “schismatic” Jews in those days who would have nothing to do with this false ecumenical Church (vs. 56), who attempted to change everything… When one of the ecumenical priest came along to sacrifice to a false god, one of the “schismatics” who refused to part from the old law, actually killed him! (ch. 2, vs 24) as well as the person that brought him there (vs 25). What does the Bible say about this killing? Does it say he should not have intefered with the priest’s sacrifice? Does it say that he was acting prideful? No. It actually compliments him, saying that he “showed great zeal for the law” (vs 26). ***I don’t see the parallel between Matathias and your Marine. The latter was being asked to comply with a directive of Holy Mother Church, not a pagan king. Absent rank heresy, it is dangerous to set our judgement over and above the Holy See. ***

The point is, when the faith is being attacked to the extent that it is today, and when God is being offended as He is today by these wolves, we need to take a stand. The priest’s who refuse to obey Rome do not deserve our obedience: they deserve our resistance. The attacks that you are alleging would seem to be coming from the Church. I would agree that the Church is attacked from without. Again, this is a relatively small matter.

Unfortunately, many people hide behind false obedience to these disobedient priests (wolves) and refuse to stand up for the truth. They are cowards who use “obedience” to justify their cowardice. That may appear obedient to some, but others see it for what it is.

***That is overly dramatic. We are simply being asked to stand for the reception of Holy Communion, not sacrifice an infant to Baal or Astarte. As for “others” who “see it for what it is,” I simply assert that they are being pridefully disobedient, either because they set their judgement over our legitimate shepherds or because they desire to be seen as holy and righteous. We can kneel any other time in adoration. We are asked to stand for Holy Communion, unless we are attending a TLM. ***

 

[Mysty101]

***That is overly dramatic. We are simply being asked to stand for the reception of Holy Communion, not sacrifice an infant to Baal or Astarte. As for “others” who “see it for what it is,” I simply assert that they are being pridefully disobedient, either because they set their judgement over our legitimate shepherds or because they desire to be seen as holy and righteous. We can kneel any other time in adoration. We are asked to stand for Holy Communion, unless we are attending a TLM. ***

I would even add that it is fine to kneel, if there are provisions for kneeling, but to call attention to oneself by kneeling when everyone else is standing (or genuflecting when everyone else is bowing) is really not appropriate at Mass. Even if this is truly not the intention, it is an unavoidable byproduct.

 

[Mysty101]

I just noticed this post

JKirkLVNV:

I try always to put myself in someone else’s shoes. If I had a lifetime of kneeling to rec. my God, I think I would be, at the least, perplexed by suddenly being asked to stand to rec. Him (and in the timeline of the Church, 40 years is pretty sudden).

Lifetime? How many people are over 90? These are the only people who could have had a lifetime of even 40 years of kneeling when the norm was changed—for everyone else it was less, so even if your 60, - 7 (probably the age you received Communion) that’s 13 years of kneeling over 40 years ago. I think that is enough time to get used to the change.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Mysty101:

I just noticed this post

Lifetime? How many people are over 90? These are the only people who could have had a lifetime of even 40 years of kneeling when the norm was changed—for everyone else it was less, so even if your 60, - 7 (probably the age you received Communion) that’s 13 years of kneeling over 40 years ago. I think that is enough time to get used to the change.

Nobody said we were going to be doing math!

 

[katherine2]

Mysty101:

I just noticed this post

Lifetime? How many people are over 90? .

Well, not yet, but not that far off!

 

[space_ghost]

i don’t because i feel it would be a distraction in a parish where no one kneels for communion… i see no problem with someone who wants to however, (as long as they warn the person directly behind them), especially in a parish where it is common…

my issue lies with the person that wishes to demonstrate for everyone else their piety… but, that is my issue, something i have to learn to deal with… i’m still working on it…

 

[pax_christi]

It is sad to know that for a person to see another person’s posture in receiving communion is “overly pious”, aren’t you being tempted there? Shouldn’t your whole being (mind, body, soul and spirit) be in focused of receiving our Lord, Jesus Christ, in Holy Communion, and not on the dispositions of others receiving Him?

For those of you that feel/think a person that kneels/genuflects to receive Holy Communion is being “too pious” or “disobedient”, have you not let your hearts go astray at a very sacred moment? Isn’t that exactly what the devil wants you to think/feel? Whatever happened to the virtue of Charity in your hearts?

Did Jesus not teach us that if we have not sinned, then “cast the first stone.” So ask yourselves, how many stones have you cast for the sake of proving yourself righteous and obedient? It’s not for any of us to judge another’s disposition in receiving Holy Communion, regardless of whether they are “obedient” or “disobedient”, sinful or not.

Kneeling/genuflecting to receive Holy Communion has never been a problem in our Catholic Church in the past. It was “never against the law.” It seems these postures only become a problem when people foster the negative thought of it being “disobedient.” I think only God knows what truly lies in our hearts, our words and in our actions. It is for Him to judge.

If a priest instructs a person the proper instruction, then he has done his job. If a person does other than the norm, then he/she has his/her reasons. It does not necessarily mean they are being disobedient or overly pious. You don’t know that. How can you even know what is in a person’s heart?

For heaven’s sake! Aren’t there more important issues at hand to discuss in life than making sure “every ‘t’ is crossed, every 'i” is dotted", especially when no one is being harmed by such postures? HOW MANY CASES OF ACCIDENTS/INJURIES/DEATH HAVE BEEN REPORTED BECAUSE CATHOLICS HAVE KNEELED/GENUFLECTED TO RECEIVE COMMUNION?

All this arguing is sure not helping any of us or our church. We sound like a bunch of God’s children just arguing whose right/whose wrong and wanting Father God to be pleased with only the most righteous, obedient children. In the mean time, He’s got a mission for all of us to do when we receive Him in Holy Communion, but because we are looking at each other’s rights and wrong’s, we are not getting His mission done. This is SO SAD.

I want to share with you all an image of LIFE that could’ve made a difference, but because God’s children are so busy arguing who’s right or who’s wrong, he/she never even got a chance to receive Jesus in Holy Communion.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/mm1.htm

May Jesus’ Peace be in your hearts always.

 

[Mysty101]

pax christi:

It is sad to know that for a person to see another person’s posture in receiving communion is “overly pious”, aren’t you being tempted there? Shouldn’t your whole being (mind, body, soul and spirit) be in focused of receiving our Lord, Jesus Christ, in Holy Communion, and not on the dispositions of others receiving Him?

What about if those others trip my 89 year old mother?

Kneeling/genuflecting to receive Holy Communion has never been a problem in our Catholic Church in the past.

There was never such a low priest/communicant ratio, and very few elderly and disabled who had such difficulty kneeling.

If a priest instructs a person the proper instruction, then he has done his job. If a person does other than the norm, then he/she has his/her reasons. It does not necessarily mean they are being disobedient or overly pious. You don’t know that. How can you even know what is in a person’s heart?

You are correct, but we can say what are the consequences—he does draw attention to himself regardless of his intentions.

It is a matter of respect and cooperation REGARDLESS of your personal preference, as the Bishops have said.

 

[pax_christi]

Mysty101:

What about if those others trip my 89 year old mother?

What are the odds of anyone tripping? You said “if”, so she has never tripped before? Why would you expect her to trip?

There was never such a low priest/communicant ratio, and very few elderly and disabled who had such difficulty kneeling.

Don’t you think the state of our Church is a good enough reason to get down on our knees when we receive Jesus in Holy Communion to ask Him for His Mercy?

You are correct, but we can say what are the consequences—he does draw attention to himself regardless of his intentions.

You can say whatever consequence you choose to think, but what Peace does your thoughts achieve for you or that person? You are given the power of prayer from God to stop these negative thoughts of another person and go on with worshipping God. Pay more attention to the state of your soul rather than the state of someone else’s intentions in how he/she receives Holy Communion. Most of us that kneel/genuflect are not attracting yours or anyone’s attention, but Jesus’ attention in His Most Blessed Sacrament. If attention is being drawn to such a person, it would be the other person giving the attention that does not have their mind/spirit in focus of who he/she is about to receive.

It is a matter of respect and cooperation REGARDLESS of your personal preference, as the Bishops have said.

Whatever happened to the “respect and cooperation” with what the Holy See has stated in their letters regarding this issue?

“Why do you persecute me?”–Jesus to Paul.

 

[Mysty101]

pax christi:

What are the odds of anyone tripping? You said “if”, so she has never tripped before? Why would you expect her to trip?
.

My mother would have fallen, if I didn’t catch her when she tripped over a genuflector. I mean that it does concern me because I have seen aomeone trip and others stumble.

Don’t you think the state of our Church is a good enough reason to get down on our knees when we receive Jesus in Holy Communion to ask Him for His Mercy?

It is not about what I think–I will listen to my Bisshop as far as the posture and sign of reverence.

Whatever happened to the “respect and cooperation” with what the Holy See has stated in their letters regarding this issue?

from RS

1. “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined,” with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms.”176

GIRM
Distribution of Holy Communion

This adaptation will take the place of number 160, paragraph 2:

The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

 

[Mysty101]

pax christi:

What are the odds of anyone tripping? You said “if”, so she has never tripped before? Why would you expect her to trip?
.

My mother would have fallen, if I didn’t catch her when she tripped over a genuflector. I mean that it does concern me because I have seen aomeone trip and others stumble.

Don’t you think the state of our Church is a good enough reason to get down on our knees when we receive Jesus in Holy Communion to ask Him for His Mercy?

It is not about what I think–I will listen to my Bisshop as far as the posture and sign of reverence.

Whatever happened to the “respect and cooperation” with what the Holy See has stated in their letters regarding this issue?

from RS

1. “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined,” with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “However, if they receive Communion standing, it is recommended that they give due reverence before the reception of the Sacrament, as set forth in the same norms.”176

GIRM
Distribution of Holy Communion

This adaptation will take the place of number 160, paragraph 2:

The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

 

[pax_christi]

My mother would have fallen, if I didn’t catch her when she tripped over a genuflector. I mean that it does concern me because I have seen aomeone trip and others stumble.

I’m sorry **if **your mother almost fell. Because one or two people “almost falling” doesn’t mean the rules/laws/guidelines should change for everybody else. That’s what they did with “prayer” in our public schools and look at our society as a whole today. Again, in the spirit of Charity, and like you said “respect and cooperation”, for each other perhaps, no matter how imperfect we all are, because in the end it is God’s judgement alone that stands.

It is not about what I think–I will listen to my Bisshop as far as the posture and sign of reverence.

You’re right and it also doesn’t matter what “you” will do either. What matters is how Christ-like you approach this issue. Why condemn others that do things differently from what you think or do? I thank God for the Peace and Charity He has taught me and I pray you and others like you that insists on one set way or no way will appreciate and accept these graces from me and others like me and just pray for our Church.

This disagreeing does not foster Peace in our Church. Can you just place this in God’s hands and meditate on His Word rather than GIRM and the RS? I think you’ll find Peace returning into your heart the more you focus in His True Presence and not on another’s posture or intention.

Have a great and Peaceful day!

 

[Mysty101]

I am at peace with my decision to follow the instructions, rather than go with my idea of what it should be.

This is a discussion, not a war.

Consider the elderly or disabled person who wishes to kneel, but is unable–watching someone come up and kneel (I believe this is one of the reasons for the change in norm)—It is better if everyone just does what that are told. Have you ever seen someone kneeling, when they can hardly walk? This is reverence?

Don’t you see the difference here? Perhaps one of the reasons was physical ability is rarely an issue for hand or tongue, far more often for kneeling or standing.

This adaptation will take the place of number 160, paragraph 2:

The faithful are not permitted to take up the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice themselves, and still less, hand them on to one another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.

Hand or tongue is a legitimate option, standing or kneeling is not.

 

[pax_christi]

Still meditating on GIRM?

You know, I’ve got a great “Green Watergate Cake” recipe you can try?

Get on with your LIFE!
Peace to you my friend!

 

[Mysty101]

We are speaking of the Liturgy, for which the GIRM is the guide.

 

[pax_christi]

Excuse me, but I think everyone knows what you are talking about. I simply suggest “let go and let God” already. With all do respect, you seem to have trouble letting this go. God bless you.

 

[Mernpap]

By the grace of God, I usually am able to attend Sunday Mass at a seminary that is led by great priests that are faithful to the Church. Postures of communicants vary. There are plenty of kneelers, standers, bowers, genuflectors, and even a few nodders.
Some receive on the tongue, some in the hand. The variety of postures does not in any way destroy the unity of the congregation. I have never yet seen anyone trip over another communicant. The priests and the laity are very reverent. A rare visitor is overly casual, but is certainly not abused by anyone during the Mass.

On the otherhand, I have visited two other dioceses recently and been appalled. In one, my husband and I dared to attend Mass with all of our children. After the Mass, the deacon that had said the homily expressed his shock at our family size by declaring, “Eight is enough!” I quietly replied I thought it was a good start. The deacon gave my husband a stern look and said, “He might have 20 more good years in him.” The good news is that when we knelt to receive our Lord, the EMHC didn’t refuse us.

In the other diocese, the priest glared over my head when I knelt and stated aloud, “Stand up. The Holy Father doesn’t allow that anymore.” He did eventually serve me and then my husband. My sons that were seated with relatives away from us were not served kneeling. The priest simply walked around one of them. The priest did eventually serve them after they stood. After the Mass, we discovered that the priest served me and my husband kneeling because he thought we did not understand English. He refused our sons in the kneeling position, because he had heard their confessions in English before the Mass and therefore expected them to obey his command to stand or do without being served. I was simply appalled that this priest had the mistaken idea that the pope doesn’t allow kneeling. Since then, I have discovered he was behaving as his bishop expects.

It seems that some folks think the GIRM stating the “norm” is equivalent to establishing the only acceptable way of doing something. I may be mistaken, but I do not understand “norm” to mean “rule.”

I am not a normal American Catholic. It may be the American Catholic norm to use artificial birth control, but I don’t. It may be the norm to believe that Holy Communion is all about looking like other parishioners, but I don’t. I kneel to receive because I am about to receive my God. If this separates me from the community of the parish I am at, so be it. Maybe their bishop should urge his priests to teach Real Presence. That would probably bring a few more communicants to their knees.

Where I see bishops neglect to teach the Faith, I see small Catholic families and few diocesan priests. Where the Faith is taught in homilies, there are large families supplying young men to seminaries. I believe that God is good and calls enough men to the priesthood. I also believe that many of the men He calls are aborted within their Catholic mothers’ wombs by birth control pills and other methods of infanticide. We seem to be getting what we deserve - shortages of vocations where there is little Faith.

I do not think that it is insubordinate to American bishops to kneel. I do not think it is wrong to charitably complain to bishops when communicants are abused for kneeling. I know noone that kneels to appear more pious than others. I hope that anyone that sees me kneel recognizes that I simply believe in the Real Presence and is encouraged to believe in the Real Presence, too.

 

[pax_christi]

I agree with you completely Mernpap. I think the problem lies within those that are having a difficult time understanding/accepting the True Presence of Jesus in Holy Communion. He is after all “exposed” to us in Holy Communion and GIRM, if I’m not mistaken, also states we are to genuflect/kneel before the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacle or/and at Exposition. I don’t think the Catholic church’s liturgical rules/guides are too strict as to restrict our postures in receiving Holy Communion to only one certain way. If we are to live/practice our Faith worship according to “restrictions” of our bodily movements and come to worship at Mass only to see that others are not in agreement with our own postures, then we are not glorifying God anymore–I am strictly talking about this issue on this thread.(I know there will be others out there that will bring other topics relating to this issue and that would be besides my point). I think those that insist on that one certain posture in GIRM neglect to read the letters that the Holy See has written to respond to these problems with certain US churches regarding this issue. My family and I have also been “instructed” by a priest of this “norm” and like you, we are not your typical average American Catholic family. Mind you, we were instructed 5 minutes before a daily Mass were to begin and I felt embrassed, insulted and humiliated because the instruction was given in front of my children, and at least two other parishioners, inside the church pew where we normally sat, probably overheard the conversation (we usually sat in the front so I have no idea exactly how many people were in attendance), instead of being privately instructed. I was shocked and devasted. I guess he thought I was ignorant of the “law” and would submit completely at that Mass. I didn’t feel any respect at how he handled that situation. Funny thing I told my husband was that he had opportunities to talk to us in private and maybe I would’ve felt more positive and understanding of his suggestion, but I felt violated and forced to submit to his suggestion. Days later, my husband and I talked to him and I presented to this priest these letters about this issue and he would not even look at them. I read some parts of the letter and he sat there in silence. He did not even bother to read the letters himself or at least ask where I got them from. He said he would “look into it and get back with us”, but you can guess what the result of that meeting was. He hasn’t gotten back to us since. Still waiting.

We never had a problem with this (we genuflect as a sign of reverence) anywhere we’ve worshipped during Mass before either, from other priests or parish members tripping/falling/complaining. I think also as a natural human instinct, we humans tend to give each other a natural physical spacing so as not to violate each other’s “personal space.” I can’t imagine our Church, with all its recent changes, telling us folks at the bottom of this hierarchy that a posture that was once considered acceptable is now unacceptable. That would just be taking advantage of our intelligence and assuming we are all ignorant of the Truth. And if Piety comes to the minds of those critically analyzing someone that kneels/genuflects, then wouldn’t that be a good thing? If I recall correctly, isn’t Piety one of the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit during Confirmation? Is this gift of Piety from the Holy Spirit now “unacceptable”? Kneeling/genuflecting to receive Holy Communion only becomes a problem when those that consider these postures illicit insist that the “norm” is the “only”, perhaps “mandatory” posture.

My family and I genuflect not to draw any attention to ourselves, but to draw attention to Jesus who is Truly Present during Holy Communion. Like you and your family, if people tend to think this act of our reverence is “overly pious” then I’d like to tell to them take it up with Jesus. He’s the reason we genuflect. My family and I owe Him at least this much of our time, even more, in Holy Communion for all His Blessings and Graces in our lives.