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Darryl_B
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Sometimes when adults tell children things, the child tends to filter the information through the little information they know.
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Darryl_B
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This has begged a question for me, since my conversion to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and it is often on my mind. Were I actually just using God as an excuse for having no respect for anyone other than myself?
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Darryl_B
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Darryl_B
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I did this when I proposed to my wife. The first part that is, adoration, love, would replace the word “worship”. And thank God you were not there to witness that beautiful moment, for you would be a kill-joy.
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RedFan
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I did the same with my wife.
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RedFan
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Seriously? You don’t know me, or my “agenda.” I’m trying to learn! And until now, you were one of my most respected sources of that learning on this site. A disappointment, to be sure.
I’m not trying to “prove” what anyone else is doing, nor “justify” a position. I don’t get my jollies by “winning” arguments or scoring “points” in an anonymous chat room. But you’ve painted me that way, and now the paint is on me and seen by others (you’ve got Daryl_B calling me a kill-joy!) – an even more disappointing consequence, whether intended or not.
Christ died for me. I wonder if I’ll draw so much as an apology from you.
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Pup7
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I think Tis_Bearself’s statement has more to do with your own statements.
“Well, that may be – but it describes my grandmother (R.I.P.) quite well. I am convinced she worshiped Mary in the full sense of the word.”
“Why don’t we do this: Let’s get a definition of “veneration” and of “worship” and examine them side by side. Da?”
“Thanks. Want to take a shot at the difference between worship and veneration? And when you say ‘Catholics do not see kneeling before a statue of a saint or Mary as a form of worship,’ are you speaking for all Catholics?”
“What ensues is often a disagreement over whether, at the end of the day, veneration is just a watered-down form of worship. What gets missed in the rhetoric is the real issue: is kneeling a sign of worship or isn’t it?
Somebody here want to take a shot at this?”
Pretty much every one of these is the same question, rearranged and reworded, or at the very least the same idea.
You’ve been provided tons of explanations (and to be fair, you’ve acknowledged most of them), you’ve been offered source material, you’ve been given example after example, but you continue to call the question. It’s like you’re badgering the witness until you get the answer you want.
Most of the folks responding here are either Catholics or well on our way to becoming one. What sort of response did you expect?
And this…
“I’m not trying to ‘prove’ what anyone else is doing, nor ‘justify’ a position. I don’t get my jollies by ‘winning’ arguments or scoring ‘points’ in an anonymous chat room. But you’ve painted me that way, and now the paint is on me and seen by others (you’ve got Daryl_B calling me a kill-joy!) – an even more disappointing consequence, whether intended or not.”
The repeated questions feel as though you are. It wasn’t Tis_Bearself who did any of that, either.
“Well, that may be – but it describes my grandmother (R.I.P.) quite well. I am convinced she worshiped Mary in the full sense of the word.”
“Why don’t we do this: Let’s get a definition of “veneration” and of “worship” and examine them side by side. Da?”
“Thanks. Want to take a shot at the difference between worship and veneration? And when you say ‘Catholics do not see kneeling before a statue of a saint or Mary as a form of worship,’ are you speaking for all Catholics?”
“What ensues is often a disagreement over whether, at the end of the day, veneration is just a watered-down form of worship. What gets missed in the rhetoric is the real issue: is kneeling a sign of worship or isn’t it?
Somebody here want to take a shot at this?”
Pretty much every one of these is the same question, rearranged and reworded, or at the very least the same idea.
You’ve been provided tons of explanations (and to be fair, you’ve acknowledged most of them), you’ve been offered source material, you’ve been given example after example, but you continue to call the question. It’s like you’re badgering the witness until you get the answer you want.
Most of the folks responding here are either Catholics or well on our way to becoming one. What sort of response did you expect?
And this…
“I’m not trying to ‘prove’ what anyone else is doing, nor ‘justify’ a position. I don’t get my jollies by ‘winning’ arguments or scoring ‘points’ in an anonymous chat room. But you’ve painted me that way, and now the paint is on me and seen by others (you’ve got Daryl_B calling me a kill-joy!) – an even more disappointing consequence, whether intended or not.”
The repeated questions feel as though you are. It wasn’t Tis_Bearself who did any of that, either.
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twf
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Oh, they definitely are…this is a photo of the fairly fringe group known as “the Holy Apostolic One True Church of the Exalted Tissue Paper”. They hold to the bizarre belief that salvation is mediated by Christ through special anointed tissues.
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Darryl_B
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Therefore. Kneeling is NOT a sign of worship. And apologies if you misinterpret my kill-joy comment, it is with regard that you would be trying to judge me based on your personal observations, rather than try to understand through the lens of the persons actions you are judging.
(This would also apply to your Grandmother may she RIP).
(It also applies to AINg’s judgement of the Orthodox Church).
(This would also apply to your Grandmother may she RIP).
(It also applies to AINg’s judgement of the Orthodox Church).
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guanophore
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I have been watching Downton Abbey reruns and noticed that the men wanted to take a knee when proposing, and at least one said she would not accept the proposal otherwise! I have not noticed that men were accused of genuflecting to propose marriage, but I guess it could be taken that way.
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RedFan
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OK, guys. I’ll look elsewhere for help. This will be my last post on CAF. God Bless.
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guanophore
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God Bless you, RedFan. My prayer for you will be that you do not seek “help” or answers where you are satisfied, but that Jesus will be satisfied about your choices.
2 Timothy 4:2-4 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.
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guanophore
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I have seen Catholics like this as well. They seem to have projected part of themselves onto a saint, and lost perspective.
No, but “catholics” who do this have fallen from Catholicity. Such a person has become an idolater, but does not realize it.
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guanophore
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I think that the formulation of “venerates also” might be a bit of a stretch. It is more accurate to say that one venerates the image portrayed BECAUSE of the person portrayed. We don’t venerate “also” but “through” the image.
Did she take the place of God in your life?
It seems that it is most important that you answer this question for yourself. Should a person judge the heart of another based upon their physical posture?
“But there is only this, for which thou shalt entreat the Lord for thy servant, when my master goeth into the temple of Remmon, to worship: and he leaneth upon my hand, if I bow down in the temple of Remmon, when he boweth down in the same place, that the Lord pardon me thy servant for this thing. 19And he said to him: Go in peace.” 2 Kings 5
Is bowing worship for Giezi the servant of Naaman?
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BoyGenius
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If I have to lend my ear to someone talking through a telephone or cell phone. Or, if I have to lean my ear closer to the receiver end of the unit, or lower my head just to hear someone clearer. Or if I have to kneel to a baby in a high-chair. Or if a kid asks for something, I cannot hear them, and so I lower myself down to listen. Would all those things sum up as reasons we should not bow or bend/lean our ears to those who call our attention, as worship?
Consider, Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah. There was a great cloud and light. Jesus also said His Father is the God of the living, not of the dead. Well, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob must’ve still been alive. So if they are alive as we note this as the saints live. And Jesus conversed with them. I’d imagine that we would simply need to lend our ears, and lean/kneel down before them. To listen, to pray, and ask for assistance and guidance as God has used countless people (i.e. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, King David, Jeremiah, the prophets, etc.) to guide us to Him. And for some reason, why do we believe that ceased in Heaven? For the Our Father states if quite plainly and clearly: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.” And it’s “Hallowed.” Just as the Hallowed ground Moses stepped onto wherefore the bush was burning, but never consumed. And, those were Hallowed grounds wherefore Jesus conversed in and during the Transfiguration. So and thus, the saints are hallowed (i.e. Holy.) In the state of life God has given them. And likewise, we bow before them to lend our ears and listen with our hearts to what they are telling us now. In our prayers and through our devotions. That hasn’t stopped since they were here on earth.
I’d add, when you are driving, not certain of the road you are on. And, you have to stop, and take the time to look/read a road sign. And even a map. I don’t think the statues of saints, for which they implore (i.e. sanctity and holiness) are bad markers of their lives leading us ever closer to Christ, and His Father Who art in Heaven.
About everything many Protestants throw at the Church with, they do about in ever ordinary thing they do in real life. Sometimes I think…
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Pup7
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I hope you’re asking RedFan, who actually asked that question. 
I’m just the quoter.
I don’t have an issue with statues in the least.
I’m just the quoter.I don’t have an issue with statues in the least.
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guanophore
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Yes, thanks!I hope you’re asking RedFan, who actually asked that question.
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Darryl_B
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I do know from my days as a protestant of a particular sorts, that there is a heavy burden of guilt imposed on the conscience regarding anything in relationship to exhibiting respect for anyone. Where that guilt originates I do not fully understand, though I am still searching for answers within myself. There is however, this complete void of “the communion of saints”, which I identified early in my conversion. I also acknowledge that the issue was not actually with the statue itself, but with the actual one who the icon represents to us, the issue only gets projected onto the icon as it is easier and provides an escape clause should we be wrong before God. The broader picture is this and this is just one of the many examples
Certain protestants cannot say “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee, Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus” under any circumstances, unless reading it directly from the Scripture, with the voice of an Angel, and the voice of Elizabeth. There does not need to be a context of kneeling or statue at all. I know this because as I were about to teach my son this, I only got through 5 words before I were sharply rebuked by my protestant wife and stopped in my tracks.
As I say, the issue is really respect of people which is only in turn projected onto statues because it is conveniently easier. What is missing in protestantism is “the communion of saints”. I recognized that it just simply did not exist in the main-stream protestant variation I were in. It was an amazing thing to experience at that first Easter Vigil.
Certain protestants cannot say “Hail Mary, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee, Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus” under any circumstances, unless reading it directly from the Scripture, with the voice of an Angel, and the voice of Elizabeth. There does not need to be a context of kneeling or statue at all. I know this because as I were about to teach my son this, I only got through 5 words before I were sharply rebuked by my protestant wife and stopped in my tracks.
As I say, the issue is really respect of people which is only in turn projected onto statues because it is conveniently easier. What is missing in protestantism is “the communion of saints”. I recognized that it just simply did not exist in the main-stream protestant variation I were in. It was an amazing thing to experience at that first Easter Vigil.
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