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mgrfin
Guest
HI
In the LA Archdiocese, standing is the norm.
In the LA Archdiocese, standing is the norm.
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Sure
Guest
Standing is the normative posture for the reception of Holy Communion in the United States, not just Los Angeles. Communicants are allowed to kneel if they feel so inclined but the norm remains standing.
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mgrfin
Guest
If my “helicopter” comment was “seriously lame”, then how do you characterize the Vietnamese pastor claiming that it was a mortal sin to stand. Where did he get his seminary education?
Lighten up. Bishop Brown needs help where the oranges used to grow. I haven’t seen any apology in the local news. If I do, I will come back with a sincere apology.
mgrfin
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otjm
Guest
I was going to let the comment slide when I first saw it. Now I won’t.
The priest made a comment about the morality of doing something different than what the norm was. He was wrong in the comment. Whether or not that was taught in seminary is problimatic; or perhaps it was due to pressure from the bishop or the bishop’s office. In either event, it was a mistake in judgement.
Making a comment about helicopters was, in my opinion, about 1 step off a racist remark; it had to do with where he came from - Viet Nam - not his judgement. His judgement had nothing to do with where he came from.
I was a Viet Nam vet and I have seen all the racism I need to see about Vietnamese. The first Vietnamese person I met was in the seminary in the early 1960s, totally removed from his family, and told of how members of his family had fled North Viet Nam because of persecution of Catholics by the Communists. Not all of his family made it to the South; some were imprisoned and some executed; the rest succeeded in fleeing. He ws alone, separated from all family (and family is highly important to most Vietnamese) and knew he could never return. I was struck by the degree of dedication he had to Christ.
Given the background of Vietnamese Catholics in general - they aren’t here because this is their native country - and given the fact that this man you are sneering about has dedicated his life to Christ, I consider the slur about helicopters just that - a slur.
He made a mistake. He apologized for it. Get over it. I am sure you have never made a serious error in judgement. And if I am wrong, and you have, then maybe you should learn from that mistake in judgement to have a wee bit of compassion for others who also make mistakes.
You might also want to learn to separate comments about judgement from comments about where someone came from and how they may have arrived here. The latter has nothing whatsoever to do with the former.
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mgrfin
Guest
Okay. I researched the issue about Fr. Tran, a pastor in the Diocese of Orange. I apologize. He did retract his statement that kneeling was a mortal sin.
And although Standing is the norm, the Diocese of Orange has never said that kneeling was to be allowed. It is just not a mortal sin.
God forbid, you should receive from the hands of the Bishop, who has been photographed dragging people up from their knees if they tried to receive while kneeling.
Enough said on this unimportant issue.
As far at the latin Mass, Bishop Brown in Orange discontinued one of the three Latin masses being said in his diocese when the pastor of St. Mary Star of the Sea retired. Latin Mass can now only be found in the Polish Center in Yorba Linda, and in San Juan Capistrano. I’m sure Brown would discontinue these when the pastors retired as well.
Now that Benedict XVI has approved the Latin Mass once again, let’s see what the good Bishop will do.
Whatever it is about Bishop Brown, people love “to give it to him.”
mgrfin
And although Standing is the norm, the Diocese of Orange has never said that kneeling was to be allowed. It is just not a mortal sin.
God forbid, you should receive from the hands of the Bishop, who has been photographed dragging people up from their knees if they tried to receive while kneeling.
Enough said on this unimportant issue.
As far at the latin Mass, Bishop Brown in Orange discontinued one of the three Latin masses being said in his diocese when the pastor of St. Mary Star of the Sea retired. Latin Mass can now only be found in the Polish Center in Yorba Linda, and in San Juan Capistrano. I’m sure Brown would discontinue these when the pastors retired as well.
Now that Benedict XVI has approved the Latin Mass once again, let’s see what the good Bishop will do.
Whatever it is about Bishop Brown, people love “to give it to him.”
mgrfin
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mgrfin
Guest
The Vietnamese Catholic population does very well, with just about 35,000 out of a population of 1 million Catholics in Orange county, and the Bishop Auxiliary is Vietnamese.
The problem is priests who don’t understand English very well, or our culture, make such outlandish statements. Since the Fourth Grade, Catholics know what it takes to make something a mortal sin. His apology was half hearted, as reported the the LA Times, and he almost hinted that such who did not obey albeit minor litiurgical regulations should be excommunicated.
I’m not a racist, neither was my comment. But the situation in Orange County is almost comical with Bishop Brown, who has a full lineup of critics. The Pastor didn’t make a "mistake’. He was ignorant of the Moral Theology he was supposed to have learned in First Theo (let alone in the Fourth Grade). He apologized because he had to. His culture doesn’t allow for the smallest deviation from the line, (which was just a ‘rubric’ in this case).
Let it go at that.
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AlexV
Guest
Well the newest game they’re playing over there is some silliness about who can attend Mass at St. Mary’s.
That territory and that parish have suffered enormously from leadership that seriously needs a reeducation in any number of areas of Catholic life.
That territory and that parish have suffered enormously from leadership that seriously needs a reeducation in any number of areas of Catholic life.
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palmas85
Guest
Your understanding is wrong. You cannot legally be denied Holy Communion if you kneel to receive. Rome has already spoken to that issue and quite forcefully too I might add.
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otjm
Guest
That is correct. Refusing Communion is a Canonical penalty which can be imposed, but only for very serious reasons. One such reason would be, for example, a legislator who actively promotes abortion. We all are aware that this penalty has not been imposed widely, although there are a large number of Catholic legislators who have actively persued laws promoting abortion. Rome has stated very explicitly that the Canonical penalty of refusing Communion shall not be imposed on those who do not follow the norm for posture for receiving. I believe they also indicted there could be sanctions against any priest so doing.
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Vittorio23
Guest
I would prefer to kneel when receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ… for me personally it is a posture that helps me to express ‘littleness’, submissiveness, adoration, and unworthiness. It helps me to keep in mind that this is truly Christ our King coming to us- if He can humble Himself to appear in the form of bread and wine, then I feel I can humble myself and kneel to receive Him.
However, I do not dismiss receiving while standing, which I most often do. My parish does not kneel and I feel that if I were to kneel right before receiving, it would significantly affect the rate of the Communion line. So, I refrain for that reason.
There is a parish nearby that I go to sometimes for daily Mass that is run by a Dominican priory. They have altar rails and everyone receives Holy Communion kneeling.
All in all-- for myself, the posture of kneeling helps me keep a humble mindset. It’s not impossible to keep while standing, but kneeling definitely helps.
So for what it’s worth…
However, I do not dismiss receiving while standing, which I most often do. My parish does not kneel and I feel that if I were to kneel right before receiving, it would significantly affect the rate of the Communion line. So, I refrain for that reason.
There is a parish nearby that I go to sometimes for daily Mass that is run by a Dominican priory. They have altar rails and everyone receives Holy Communion kneeling.
All in all-- for myself, the posture of kneeling helps me keep a humble mindset. It’s not impossible to keep while standing, but kneeling definitely helps.
So for what it’s worth…
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Ad_Deum
Guest
I prefer kneeling because we receive the sacred Body of Jesus Christ, so as a respect we should kneel before Jesus Christ the King.
Scriptural kneeling:
Genesis 41:43 - …and he [Pharaoah] made him [Joseph] to ride in his second chariot; and they cried before him, “Bow the knee”! Thus he set him over all the land of Egypt. [respect, obedience to a ruler]
I Kings 8:54 - Now as Solomon finished offering all this prayer and supplication to the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had knelt with hands outstretched toward heaven [prayer, supplication]
I Kings 19:18 - Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed down to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him. [worship, reverence]
II Kings 1:13 - And the third captain of fifty went up, and fell on his knees before Elijah and entreated him, “O man of God, I pray you…” [supplication]
II Chronicles 6:13 - Solomon had made a bronze platform five cubits long, five cubits wide, and three cubits high, and had set it in the court; and he stood upon it. Then he knelt upon his knees in the presence of all the assembly of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven [public worship, invocation, reverence to God]
Ezra 9:5 - And at the evening sacrifice I rose from my fasting, with my garments and my mantle rent, and fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands to the Lord my God. [penitence, supplication]
Daniel 6:10 - When Daniel knew that the document [condemning him to the den of lions] had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem; and he knelt on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God as he had done previously. [petition, worship]
Isaiah 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’ [public worship, reverence to God]
Psalm 95:6 - O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker! [public worship, reverence to and humility before God]
Matthew 8:2 - …and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean”. [prayer, supplication]
Matthew 9:18 - While he was thus speaking to them, behold, a ruler came in and knelt before him, saying, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live”. [prayer, petition]
Matthew 15:25 - But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me”. [prayer, petition, supplication]
Matthew 17:14, 15 - And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him [Jesus] and kneeling before him said “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic…” [homage, supplication]
Mark 10:17 - And as he [Jesus] was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life”? [homage, humility]
Mark 15:19 - And they struck his head with a reed, and spat upon him, and they knelt down in homage to him. [mock worship]
Luke 22:41 - And he [Jesus] withdrew from them [his disciples] about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed [worship, supplication]
Acts 7:60 - And he [Stephen] knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them”. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. [petition]
Acts 9:40 - But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise”. And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. [prayer, invocation, petition]
Acts 20:36 - And when he [Paul] had spoken thus, he knelt down and prayed with them all. [public worship]
Romans 11:4 - But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal”. [worship, reverence]
Romans 14:11 - for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God”. [reverence, public worship]
Ephesians 3:14, 15 - For this reason I [Paul] bow my knee unto the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you …" [reverence, petition]
Philippians 2:10 - that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth [reverence, worship, homage]
Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo
Scriptural kneeling:
Genesis 41:43 - …and he [Pharaoah] made him [Joseph] to ride in his second chariot; and they cried before him, “Bow the knee”! Thus he set him over all the land of Egypt. [respect, obedience to a ruler]
I Kings 8:54 - Now as Solomon finished offering all this prayer and supplication to the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had knelt with hands outstretched toward heaven [prayer, supplication]
I Kings 19:18 - Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed down to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him. [worship, reverence]
II Kings 1:13 - And the third captain of fifty went up, and fell on his knees before Elijah and entreated him, “O man of God, I pray you…” [supplication]
II Chronicles 6:13 - Solomon had made a bronze platform five cubits long, five cubits wide, and three cubits high, and had set it in the court; and he stood upon it. Then he knelt upon his knees in the presence of all the assembly of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven [public worship, invocation, reverence to God]
Ezra 9:5 - And at the evening sacrifice I rose from my fasting, with my garments and my mantle rent, and fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands to the Lord my God. [penitence, supplication]
Daniel 6:10 - When Daniel knew that the document [condemning him to the den of lions] had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem; and he knelt on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God as he had done previously. [petition, worship]
Isaiah 45:23 - By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’ [public worship, reverence to God]
Psalm 95:6 - O come, let us worship and bow down, let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker! [public worship, reverence to and humility before God]
Matthew 8:2 - …and behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean”. [prayer, supplication]
Matthew 9:18 - While he was thus speaking to them, behold, a ruler came in and knelt before him, saying, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live”. [prayer, petition]
Matthew 15:25 - But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me”. [prayer, petition, supplication]
Matthew 17:14, 15 - And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him [Jesus] and kneeling before him said “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic…” [homage, supplication]
Mark 10:17 - And as he [Jesus] was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life”? [homage, humility]
Mark 15:19 - And they struck his head with a reed, and spat upon him, and they knelt down in homage to him. [mock worship]
Luke 22:41 - And he [Jesus] withdrew from them [his disciples] about a stone’s throw, and knelt down and prayed [worship, supplication]
Acts 7:60 - And he [Stephen] knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them”. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. [petition]
Acts 9:40 - But Peter put them all outside and knelt down and prayed; then turning to the body he said, “Tabitha, rise”. And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. [prayer, invocation, petition]
Acts 20:36 - And when he [Paul] had spoken thus, he knelt down and prayed with them all. [public worship]
Romans 11:4 - But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal”. [worship, reverence]
Romans 14:11 - for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God”. [reverence, public worship]
Ephesians 3:14, 15 - For this reason I [Paul] bow my knee unto the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you …" [reverence, petition]
Philippians 2:10 - that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth [reverence, worship, homage]
Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo
A
Ad_Deum
Guest
I prefer kneeling because it is a respect to Jesus Christ the King.
Pope John Paul II, Inaestimabile Donum, which states:
“When the faithful communicate kneeling, no other sign of reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament is required, since kneeling itself is a sign of adoration.” (#11)
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, which states, “It is therefore the keen desire of the Church that all of the faithful kneel at the feet of the Redeemer to tell Him how much they venerate and love Him.”
Dietrich von Hildebrand, whom Pope Pius XII called a 20th Century Doctor of the Church, asks, “Whence comes the disparagement of kneeling? Why should the Eucharist be received standing? Is not kneeling, in our culture, the classic expression of adoring reverence?” (The Charitable Anathema, p. 42)
Cardinal Ratzinger writes these words on the importance of kneeling during the liturgy: “Here the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ: words could not replace such a confession.” (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Feast of Faith, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1986, pp. 74-75)
Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo
Pope John Paul II, Inaestimabile Donum, which states:
“When the faithful communicate kneeling, no other sign of reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament is required, since kneeling itself is a sign of adoration.” (#11)
Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, which states, “It is therefore the keen desire of the Church that all of the faithful kneel at the feet of the Redeemer to tell Him how much they venerate and love Him.”
Dietrich von Hildebrand, whom Pope Pius XII called a 20th Century Doctor of the Church, asks, “Whence comes the disparagement of kneeling? Why should the Eucharist be received standing? Is not kneeling, in our culture, the classic expression of adoring reverence?” (The Charitable Anathema, p. 42)
Cardinal Ratzinger writes these words on the importance of kneeling during the liturgy: “Here the bodily gesture attains the status of a confession of faith in Christ: words could not replace such a confession.” (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Feast of Faith, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1986, pp. 74-75)
Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo
S
scylla
Guest
Thanks for the response Jim.
You do make a good point, there is more of a chance of bumping your elbow if you receive at a communion rail from the cup.
I see no one has come up with a Christian basis for standing, just a practical basis. I do agree that standing has some practical benefits.
Would everyone concede that there is no better respectful reason, scriptural reason or symbolic reason for standing, yet there is a practical reason.
From the general consensus I see that kneeling is more respectful, is scriptural and symbolizes our humility before Christ better, yet might not be as practical without a communion rail.
Can everyone agree with me on this, after reading all the reasons on this thread?
What would be the content of the catechesis for a person who insists on kneeling other than insisting that that is the norm, and we should be unified?
In Christ
Scylla
Again I am not talking about norms, I am talking about what is better, more holy and more reverent.
You do make a good point, there is more of a chance of bumping your elbow if you receive at a communion rail from the cup.
I see no one has come up with a Christian basis for standing, just a practical basis. I do agree that standing has some practical benefits.
Would everyone concede that there is no better respectful reason, scriptural reason or symbolic reason for standing, yet there is a practical reason.
From the general consensus I see that kneeling is more respectful, is scriptural and symbolizes our humility before Christ better, yet might not be as practical without a communion rail.
Can everyone agree with me on this, after reading all the reasons on this thread?
What would be the content of the catechesis for a person who insists on kneeling other than insisting that that is the norm, and we should be unified?
In Christ
Scylla
Again I am not talking about norms, I am talking about what is better, more holy and more reverent.
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Vittorio23
Guest
One point I should also like to make:
A lot of Eastern Christianity see standing as far more reverent than kneeling. I went to a Maronite parish today for Mass, and most of the parishoners came in and stood to pray before Mass. Not kneel (although there were a few). And this was during Adoration, no less. There were quite a few who stood for nearly the entire Holy Hour.
A lot of Eastern Christianity see standing as far more reverent than kneeling. I went to a Maronite parish today for Mass, and most of the parishoners came in and stood to pray before Mass. Not kneel (although there were a few). And this was during Adoration, no less. There were quite a few who stood for nearly the entire Holy Hour.
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Chris_McAvoy
Guest
Wisdom flows forth from brother Vittorio’s keyboard!
montgomerybyz.org/download/2communion.pdf
The Eastern version of communion is definitely the older way, minus the intinction (not sure when that was introduced). Do as the east does and all will be well. Embrace your ancient mystical heritage and save your western church from protestant influence!
Many Popes condemned receiving communion by hand between 360-760 AD. They must have had good reasons.
Here is a mosaic of venetians about to receive communion between the years 1100-1150 AD in the Basilica of San Marco.
montgomerybyz.org/download/2communion.pdf
The Eastern version of communion is definitely the older way, minus the intinction (not sure when that was introduced). Do as the east does and all will be well. Embrace your ancient mystical heritage and save your western church from protestant influence!
Many Popes condemned receiving communion by hand between 360-760 AD. They must have had good reasons.
Here is a mosaic of venetians about to receive communion between the years 1100-1150 AD in the Basilica of San Marco.
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katy
Guest
Has anyone mentioned that kneeling provides the possibility of using the seat as support for the back and that long periods of standing are very difficult if not impossible for many? Even if one must sit while others are kneeling, one is on the same general level as those who are kneeling, not blatantly noticeable as when a special sitting section is needed or when others are standing.
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