Kneeling with guitars

[wanderlust]

I’m very much a liberal catholic, which will probably annoy some of the more orthodox people on here. However, I had been poking around on this site recently and I came across the topic of kneeling and receiving communion on the tongue. I thought it was a bit of a silly and outdated topic, but I’m really open to anything. Thanks to this site, I found a local church that used the communion rail for everyone, and I gave it a shot, and I’ve never really felt so fulfilled like in that experience. I gotta say, I’m kind of hooked and I wish more churches would carry the practice. I, however, am opposed to what have been called excessive displays of piety, and I don’t really want to serve as a distraction in my own parish.

It is unfortunate though, that those parishes that carry on with that tradition are really orthodox. I think the idea of using church Latin and almost treating it as holy is nonsensical. (I’m about to get my head on a platter from all the TLM lovers). Does it have to be that way? Why can’t we have a modern mass with a guitar and whatnot and still receive kneeling at the communion rail? Or is there such a church that I just don’t know about?

I think it would really help to spread the practice if a more liberal parish would take it on especially if it’s a young parish. The talk I see on here of going back to the cold, distant TLM is a pipedream. However, I think that bringing back the communion rail is quite doable. I don’t think that there will be a mass exodus from the Church because of it. After a few years, people will be so used to it that it will be like nothing ever happened (Unlike returning to Latin which would, I’m sorry, kill any kind of membership in the Church). So, why don’t they just bring it back?**

 

[VociMike]

You raise an interesting question, and I think you need to take a stab at answering it. Why do people (and this would include your fellow liberal Catholics) lump Communion rails and kneeling for Communion with all that other “orthodox” stuff that you reject? Why do they see no value in that thing in which you have found value?

What’cha think?

 

[pigtown]

The church I go to has a Communion rail. People can either kneel when receiving Communion or stand up and receive.

 

[Monica37]

I am a TLM lover and I promise to not bite your head off. I attended the OF for many years (because there was no EF available in my area). I would have loved to receive kneeling for all those years and I think just that act alone would have helped me cope better until I could relocate. I would suggest that you speak to your priest about it. Maybe he could then speak to the Bishop. The church I attend now has mostly OF masses and graciously added an EF. They simply put a rail around the altar and bring out cushions. I think it was fairly inexpensive to do. There is a gate in the center that is open until Communion and then reopened at the end of Mass. Maybe your priest could get permission for something like that and have one Mass that is a little more traditional just to see what the attendance would be like.

On the other hand, I am not sure what the rules would be for that because I know that at the EF you are not permitted to receive standing(unless you have a condition that would prohibit kneeling). There can be no mixing of the rites. I am sure that someone on here can give you the answer for that. But I say if you can, do it! I don’t see anything wrong with it at all.

See, no head biting

 

[Sarabande]

It is a good question - one I cannot answer. Most parishes in my area, if they also have the TLM (and there are a few that do), for the EF masses the people who attend those will kneel at the communion rail. For their OF masses, the people will stand to recieve. It would be nice to see it occur during the OF, though. I believe that for the Anglican Use rite, they do kneel at the communion rails.

But as VociMike mentioned, it does seem as if people tend to lump things in just one box, such as communion rails only for the TLM. And, sadly, for some of the more liberal Catholics, if it has to do with the TLM or remotely resemble something from Pre-Vatican II, then it’s automatically rejected. Because of that, I think some pastors are afraid of trying to reinstitute things like that back into the liturgy, especially in more liberal parishes - or the pastors themselves hold the same view.

 

[Digitonomy]

It is unfortunate though, that those parishes that carry on with that tradition are really orthodox.

I think you have the wrong attitude about this, or else are simply misusing the term “orthodox.” I think we should all hope our parishes are orthodox, and help them in that regard when we can. But it may well be that you’re selling your parish short - kneeling and standing for communion are both orthodox. There are any number of legitimate options that may be more “liberal” or “modern” rather than “conservative” or “traditional.” That doesn’t make them heterodox. At the same time, there are heterodox practices at both ends of the spectrum, although it’s probably fair to say such problems are more common at the liberal end.

 

[feargalmac]

Galway Cathedral still has its Altar Rail and people kneel for Communion. Sometimes the Mass has the folk singing, guitar slapping music you might like.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

The church I attend now has mostly OF masses and graciously added an EF. They simply put a rail around the altar and bring out cushions. I think it was fairly inexpensive to do.

A couple of other options for churches that celebrate both forms of the Mass, perhaps even less expensive:

• One local church just brings out a few prie-dieux (the kneelers used by altar servers and wedding couples) and lines them up at the head of the aisle for the Extraordinary Form. They accommodate about four people at a time, and things move fairly smoothly.
• In another local church when they celebrate the Extraordinary Form they simply reserve the first pew on each side of the aisle for Communion. People file out of their own pews and into the first pew to kneel and receive.

 

[T700]

In another local church when they celebrate the Extraordinary Form they simply reserve the first pew on each side of the aisle for Communion. People file out of their own pews and into the first pew to kneel and receive.

What an excellent idea! Simple, but it never crossed my mind.

Paul

 

[Brendan]

A couple of other options for churches that celebrate both forms of the Mass, perhaps even less expensive:

• One local church just brings out a few prie-dieux (the kneelers used by altar servers and wedding couples) and lines them up at the head of the aisle for the Extraordinary Form. They accommodate about four people at a time, and things move fairly smoothly.

That is what our parish does for the Ordinary Form. There are prie-dieux up around the sanctuary. Anyone who desires to recieve kneeling may do so (most in our parish do so)

 

[Brendan]

I think the idea of using church Latin and almost treating it as holy is nonsensical. (I’m about to get my head on a platter from all the TLM lovers). **

I’ll agree that any language used to properly praise God would be Holy.

But there is more to that in the use of Latin in Church.

It is used for two reasons.

First and foremost, because it provides a common language, without favoratism, that the whole Church may worship together with.

This is why Pope Benedict, declared that large international gatherings should use Latin, and why Vatican II mandated that all the faithful should know and be able to respond, to all the Mass parts in Latin.

I myself am a strong advocate simply because I was on the recieving end of this.

A bit of background. The parish were my father grew up in was a mix of Irish, French and Hispanic. The Mass was celebrated together (in Latin) with the high points of the homily being given in each language. All the people were part of the same parish, and celebrated together.

Along came V-II, and the solution was simple. The priest just said the new Mass in Latin and gave the homily as before.

That continued for decades. When we went to Mass with my Grandmother (who was still at the parish) it was in Latin, and I learned the responses that way.

Fast forward to now. I used to travel globally for work. My options were either to try and participate orally in Korean, French, German, Dutch, Turkish, Spanish, Portugese, Polish or whatever the local language was.

Or… I could send a email to the diocese I was going to and ask for a list of the Latin Mass and attend one of those.

I still didn;t get much out of the homilies, but I could pray together with all those with me, saying the same prayers, in the same language to the same God.

That is why I am so surprized that liberal Catholics are so set against the use of Latin at Mass. If we are all Vatican II Catholics, we should do what the council says and learn the necessary Latin.

In that way we make the visitor to our parish welcome, no matter what language they speak. Is it really beyond liberals to make some effort in this very Christian thing to do??

This is an area where I see Catholic ‘liberals’ especially those in the US, really failing.

The attitude I’ve encountered from them has been very ‘ME’ focused, what is good for ME, what is too much trouble for ME to do. If "I’ am not going to be the one who is the traveler, why should ‘I’ prepare myself to accommodate other languages.

The is incredibly true for Americans. In Europe I had very little trouble finding a Latin Mass almost everywhere I went, including small towns in Poland or Germany. Good luck finding the same in the US! We simply expect everyone to speak English, and if a Korean shows up for Mass, HE should be the one trying to fit in, God forbid we suggest Latin to we can all pray together

And finally, the Latin is more theologically precise that most other languages (especially English)

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sometimes with these threads I feel like an absolute dinosaur. Hello! ! I’m not dead yet. I am only an ancient 57. Kneeling to receive Communion was the norm until the mid-70s.

Whenceforth comes this aversion to Latin? I have a profound aversion to guitars and what passes for sacred music today. I made my First Communion in 1958, kneeling and on the tongue. I’ve never received in the hand and would dearly love to be able to return to kneeling.

I’ve not attended a TLM since 1978 but I would not need a Missal to be able to follow along, respond, chant or sing in Latin today. We’re the folks that certain parties on these fora want to sweep under the rug…those of us who LIKED the TLM and sacred music before the changes came. That’s the ugly secret…not all of us wanted the guitars and folk music…not all of us wanted to stand much less receive in the hand…we submitted to the Magesterium. Had I known then what I know now? I would have protested then and there.

 

[turtle18]

I know of a Church where the pastor put two kneelers at the front of Communion line. So when you got to the front to receive Communion, you could stand and receive (if you are unable to kneel) or your could kneel. It was such a wonderful experience. I absolutely prefer kneeling when receiving the Blessed Sacrament. It is actually a very beautiful, intimate experience. I would prefer to always receive this way but wouldn’t be able to without the help of the kneelers. I doubt this is coming to the rest of our very liberal diocese anytime soon, as we don’t even kneel after we receive Communion.

I’m not a big fan of the EF but I am not a liberal either. I just want a reverant OF Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

I’m not a big fan of the EF but I am not a liberal either. I just want a reverant OF Mass.

I have a feeling many Catholics feel this way as well. I’m definitely not a liberal when it comes to Catholicism and I like both the EF and the OF masses, as long as they are reverent. Most of the Catholics I know are pretty much “moderate” and I think would probably not have a problem with going back to kneeling again for receiving commnion, especially if it was properly explained to them as to why it was being done. They could even leave the option for those who have a difficult time kneeling.

My grandmother recieved kneeling for the first time in years when we attended an EF mass in London a couple years back. She’s “moderate”, was fine with the change after Vatican II and never thought she’d want to go back to a Latin mass or recieve kneeling again. But after attending mass there, she was so touched and moved by it that she admitted to me that it was a very spiritual time for her, found kneeling to receive the Eucharist as more reverent and was surprised that she didn’t mind attending a Latin mass again at all. She only attends an OF mass daily where she lives, and have attended Latin OF masses at my parish once ina while, but I know that she would love to receive kneeling again at these OF masses.

It would be nice if each pastor try out kneeling to receive the Eucharist at their parishes. I think most would be pleasantly surprised. There will always be naysayers as there have been throughout the centuries, but I think for the majority of regular Joes and Johannas out there, it might be just as spiritually profound for them their first time, as it was for the OP. And for some who really have something against anything prior to VII, they would see that Pre-Vatican II wasn’t all “bad”. But that might be a fear some very liberal priests, religious and lay people have… people seeing that some of the practices weren’t as horrible and detrimental as they were taught and encouraged to believe.

 

[muffinmojo]

Hm. I’ve observed just the opposite. Latin/‘cold TLM days’ have been the only things I’ve seen bringing people to the Church, especially young people. Yes, it has made some people leave, but they were the sort of folk that rarely went to Mass anyway and never listened, so is it truly that much of a loss if they ignore God at home vs ignoring God in the pew?

 

[LotusCarsLtd]

It is a good question - one I cannot answer. Most parishes in my area, if they also have the TLM (and there are a few that do), for the EF masses the people who attend those will kneel at the communion rail. For their OF masses, the people will stand to recieve. It would be nice to see it occur during the OF, though. I believe that for the Anglican Use rite, they do kneel at the communion rails.

I’ve attended Masses before at a parish that heavily uses the EF, and even during OF Masses the faithful still kneel at the altar rails to receive Communion; I thought it was really nice to receive Communion like that since I admit that I’d feel weird doing it at a parish where it isn’t the norm

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve attended Masses before at a parish that heavily uses the EF, and even during OF Masses the faithful still kneel at the altar rails to receive Communion; I thought it was really nice to receive Communion like that since I admit that I’d feel weird doing it at a parish where it isn’t the norm

Oh, that is wonderful they do it at both masses. I do know what you mean. Although my body and soul want so badly to receive kneeling, I also feel like people would get the wrong idea should I be the only one kneeling when receiving. I made the mistake of doing that once at a parish which I’ve frequented often since a child where my family owns a second home. They’ve had franciscans ministering to the parish for the past two summers. One weekend, the two franciscans who came were very orthodox and the one out in the congregation received kneeling. So I and many of the other parishioners also knelt as we thought he was setting an example to all of us and I was right behind him. A couple of weeks later, when I returned, there was a different franciscan. I assumed that it was ok again to receive kneeling, since they were from the same place. I was one of the first people in line, so I didn’t have anyone else to take the cue. Although he never said anything directly to me, I got a feeling from what he said to us after the mass ended, that it wasn’t ok for me to do it, since that time I was the only one who did it. Oh well. I know I wasn’t trying to show off any extra acts of piety. And the rest of the congregation (it’s a small country parish) have known me since a baby, so I’m pretty sure they knew the same. I just thought it was something that was allowed again since they did it at the previous mass I attended. But I will not do it again, unless I see one of the francisans kneel next time.

 

[PacoG]

Because I was born in 1968, every Mass I have attended in my 40 years has been predominantly in English or Spanish. I have never attended a Latin Mass (EF or OF). I have seen a few Latin Masses (EF and OF) on EWTN.

Our pastor when he took over our parish started the tradition of introducing Latin from the first Sunday of Advent to the Solemnity of the Baptism of Our Lord, and from Ash Wednesday to Pentecost. In those extraordinary seasons, we chant the Kyrie, the responses to the readings, the pre-preface dialogue, Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation, the Our Father, the Embolism and the response to Pax Dominus Siempre Vobiscum in Latin. We chant the Agnus Dei in Latin year round. We recite the Gloria in English (or at 10:30 a.m. Sunday, Spanish). The Monsignor has told us in the past that the reason we do this is because it these are extraordinary seasons, and we make an extraordinary effort. It’s all beautiful.

The tradition around here–at least from what I have been able to surmise-- is that in Bilingual Masses (those in both English and Spanish), the mass is alternated in English in Spanish (for example, the First Reading and the Responsorial Psalm will be in Spanish and the Second Reading and the Gospel will be in English and so forth. The Preface and Eucharistic Prayer and words of Consecration in Spanish and the Memorial Prayer and Our Father in English and so forth.)

For Jan. 1, the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God, I attended the anticipated Mass on Dec. 31. It was the main parish mass and was, thus, trilingual (English, Spanish, Latin). However, Monsignor decided to exclusively use Spanish and Latin in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Pray Brethren, Prayer over the Gifts, the Preface, Eucharistic Prayer, Memorial Prayer, Doxology, and the Fraction were in Spanish. The Preface Dialogue, the Sanctus, the Memorial Acclamation, Our Father, Embolism, Response to the Embolism, the Rite of Peace and the Agnus Dei were all in Latin. Our priest celebrates Mass in a very pious and reverent way.

HOT DANG!!! Spanish–as a daughter language of Latin-- is close enough to Latin that one could imagine that the entire Liturgy of the Eucharist was in Latin. And then with the incense, which Monsignor uses liberally, there was this awesome feel to it. This is the closest I have been to a Latin Mass.

Honestly, I have come to the belief that Latin should be returned to the Liturgy of the Eucharist. I can see the vernacular in the Introductory and Penitential Rites (If we are asking God to forgive us, we should do it in our language) and in the Liturgy of the Word (scripture is being opened to us and we are learning about God’s word; we profess our faith and pray for our needs and the needs of the church). Logically, the vernacular is the proper language of the first part of the Mass.

However, the Liturgy of the Eucharist is entirely directed at God. It is the unified prayer of the Church. Latin is most appropriate to this part of the Mass. At this part of the Mass, the entire Latin Rite should pray together in one unified tongue. At this point, all Latin Rite Masses throughout the world should be united. The way that is done is by a common tongue…Latin.

Am I right?

 

[Ruthie]

LOL! I thought from the thread title that this was about attempting to kneel with a guitar strapped on!

I very much like what Brendan said about Latin being a communal language. In my area, we have a good deal of non-deliberate “segregation” between Hispanics and native English speakers just because of language. Of our three parishes, two only offer English, and the other has only one English Mass. I think I’ll find a way to bring this up somehow. And I think I’ll learn enough Latin for the Mass - at least.

My DH genuflects as he receives, and nobody seems to object. I can’t - if I don’t have something (like the back of the pew in front of me) to haul myself up with, it takes two strong men to get me off the floor. But I receive on the tongue.

Latin/‘cold TLM days’ have been the only things I’ve seen bringing people to the Church

I don’t know what you’re thinking!

Why would the Latin Mass, in and of itself, bring in converts? I didn’t become a Catholic because of the TLM. Neither did any of the posters here who converted. We joined because the Church is the true Church. It has nothing to do with language!

And if someone was in a schismatic rad-trad group, and joined the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostalic church simply because of the TLM… well, they probably need to spend some time in the confessional. “Roma locuta est. Causa finita est.”

In case you’re impressed, I got that from this website. (Warning - some vulgarity.) I don’t speak Latin - yet!

Soli Deo gloria,

Ruthie

 

[pnewton]

LOL! I thought from the thread title that this was about attempting to kneel with a guitar strapped on!

You weren’t the only one, especially since that actually came up once here. I actually do kneel with a guitar during the consecration. If I were to kneel for communion with a guitar, I would need a longer cord.