Kneeling with no kneelers

[murphdog261]

I went to the Christmas Vigil mass with my mom and nana. Because of my nana’s back, we chose to go the “Hall”, which is adjacent to the chapel (it is a large room with removable, padded seats, a stone floor, an altar, organ, hanging crucifix, and tabernacle).

During the consecration of the Eucharist, I knelt down on both knees, and then on one knee with my arms resting on the other knee. However, I noticed that no one around me was doing anything like this, and remained in a seated position. It was the Christmas Vigil mass so there were many people standing during the consecration.

I’m not questioning whether my kneeling was right, but was there another option I could have taken? (I know some parishes allow the congregation to stand during the consecration)

Thanks

Murph

 

[James0235]

You probably did the right thing. Remember that a good number of people at Mass on Christmas attend only a couple of times a year.

So, they probably just don’t know what to do. And if one does not attend Mass if is probably because they don’t have a good understanding of what is actually happening at the the consecration - and why we should kneel at that point.

Also, in some dioceses the bishop encourages people not to kneel (for whatever reason). I have been to Mass about 6 times in the diocese of Cleveland - 4 times in 3 different parishes and then a couple of times at special events. And each time no one kneeled except for me and those I went with (from the diocese of Columbus). We were told that the bishop (now former bishop, I guess) had asked people to stand for the consecration.

 

[Magnum_V8]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal says something to the effect of “its okay to stand when its impossible to kneel.” Again, this isn’t a direct quote. But it doesn’t say that we are to kneel only when there are kneelers.

My church removed the kneelers about 10 years ago. I, my wife and an older lady kneel on the floor. Its carpeted, but its thin and the floor underneath is rock hard.

At the consecration, God Himself is becoming physically present among us. That makes me drop to my knees.

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James,

I’m in Cleveland. I don’t remember the former bishop, Pilla, mandating that we are to stand for the consecration. I’ve been to masses at the cathedral, and everyone knelt for the consecration. But what I think did happen was that he said we are to remain standing through Agnus Dei, even after receiving communion, and then sit when the priest sits. Well, I still kneel.

 

[James0235]

James,

I’m in Cleveland. I don’t remember the former bishop, Pilla, mandating that we are to stand for the consecration. I’ve been to masses at the cathedral, and everyone knelt for the consecration. But what I think did happen was that he said we are to remain standing through Agnus Dei, even after receiving communion, and then sit when the priest sits. Well, I still kneel.

I probably just made some bad choices when picking parishes to visit when I was in the area. I remember one had built their new Church a few years prior - with no kneelers of course. And another had the priest ad-libbing the entire Mass. But, I remember at both parishes (and a third as well) that not a single person knelt during the entire Mass except those who were with me.

James

 

[benedictgal]

I went to the Christmas Vigil mass with my mom and nana. Because of my nana’s back, we chose to go the “Hall”, which is adjacent to the chapel (it is a large room with removable, padded seats, a stone floor, an altar, organ, hanging crucifix, and tabernacle).

During the consecration of the Eucharist, I knelt down on both knees, and then on one knee with my arms resting on the other knee. However, I noticed that no one around me was doing anything like this, and remained in a seated position. It was the Christmas Vigil mass so there were many people standing during the consecration.

I’m not questioning whether my kneeling was right, but was there another option I could have taken? (I know some parishes allow the congregation to stand during the consecration)

Thanks

Murph

Here’s what Francis Cardinal Arinze, the prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments says regarding kneeling:

The rule from Rome would sanction where the bishops said, “in our country we want people to kneel throughout the consecration”. From our office in Rome we will support that. So it is a bit different. But sometimes during the consecration – suppose it is open-air or it rained and it is muddy – you could not kneel there. But in the normal church it is possible to kneel.

And that’s the normal thing: to kneel during the consecration – and even, as in this country, to kneel from the beginning – just before consecration – right down to just before the Our Father. And that is okay.

Where a particular person cannot kneel – you have arthritis or you are a mother holding a baby – that is understood.

This is taken from a Q and A session found in www.adoremus.org wherein Cardinal Arinze answered quite a few liturgical questions.

Incidentally, I have been to parishes with daily Mass chapels that sometimes do not have kneelers. What to do? Well, I have no qualms about kneeling on the floor. I don’t care if I’m the only one. It is the rite thing to do.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

In my diocese, people stand after receiving. I went alone to midnight mass this Christmas, so I was not with my family (who understand my “quirks” )
I just threw my jacket on the ground and knelt on that (the floor was littered with sand/salt from the steps outside and was painful on my knees)

 

[skatepixie]

I’ve knelt on the ground outside a church that was standing room only. We were looking in through an open door…and everyone was kneeling.

IMO unless you are old, sick, injured, etc, you should still kneel. I obviously wouldn’t have knelt if I had hurt my knee or something ( and don’t you love the dirty looks you get when someone doesnt give you the benefit of the doubt on that one…I once had people staring at me for not keeling when I had brused my knee too badly to kneel.) IMO those things are what counts as “impossible to kneel” not the lack (or presence) of kneelers.

 

[Brendan]

My church removed the kneelers about 10 years ago. I, my wife and an older lady kneel on the floor. Its carpeted, but its thin and the floor underneath is rock hard…

We are in the midst of a parish expansion. As a result, we have been celebrating Mass in the parish hall for the past few months.

The hall is carpet over concrete and is quite hard, but even so, about 90% of the parish still kneels.

The lack of kneelers itself does not excuse one from the obligation to kneel.

 

[JohnnyK]

I would have done the same thing as kneeling is proper during the consecration.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I went to the Christmas Vigil mass with my mom and nana. Because of my nana’s back, we chose to go the “Hall”, which is adjacent to the chapel (it is a large room with removable, padded seats, a stone floor, an altar, organ, hanging crucifix, and tabernacle).

During the consecration of the Eucharist, I knelt down on both knees, and then on one knee with my arms resting on the other knee. However, I noticed that no one around me was doing anything like this, and remained in a seated position. It was the Christmas Vigil mass so there were many people standing during the consecration.

I’m not questioning whether my kneeling was right, but was there another option I could have taken? (I know some parishes allow the congregation to stand during the consecration)

Thanks

Murph

IT is simple. If you are unable to kneel because of a physical condition or because of space issues, you are not required to. Otherwise you are to kneel.

 

[catholic79]

I’ve knelt on the ground outside a church that was standing room only. We were looking in through an open door…and everyone was kneeling.

IMO unless you are old, sick, injured, etc, you should still kneel. I obviously wouldn’t have knelt if I had hurt my knee or something ( and don’t you love the dirty looks you get when someone doesnt give you the benefit of the doubt on that one…I once had people staring at me for not keeling when I had brused my knee too badly to kneel.) IMO those things are what counts as “impossible to kneel” not the lack (or presence) of kneelers.

I like the dirty looks. I managed to slip and twist my knee earlier in the day and I wasn’t able to kneel on the gym floor at 4 o’clock Christmas Eve mass although none did. I also didn’t genuflect which is what got me some dirty looks I figure God knew why and that was all that mattered. I did take a decent amount of Motrin later and was able to kneel at midnight mass.

I think that kneelers or not, only one kneeling or not, if you are physically able to kneel we should be on our knees.

 

[puzzleannie]

we had mass in the hall last year for several months during the church restoration, and initially the chairs were placed with room for kneeling, but over time they got more crunched together and at times there was simply no room. our pastor directed that no on was to kneel if it was a physical hardship. Nonetheless at least half the people knelt at the proper times. the ones who did not, like me, were those who could not, physically, manage it.

I have been pleased to see, when visiting Cleveland, that a couple of churches built post 1970 w/o kneelers have been brought “up to code” and that a parish formerly notorious for all kinds of dissent and playing fast and loose with liturgy (armchairs, no pews, no kneelers) now has kneelers, plus added pews with kneelers, beautiful, reverent, properly conducted liturgy, and an entire revamp of their “I’m OK You’re OK” CCD and youth programs. since this is my DD’s parish I was ambivalent when they moved there, but very pleased to see the change.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

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James,

I’m in Cleveland. I don’t remember the former bishop, Pilla, mandating that we are to stand for the consecration. I’ve been to masses at the cathedral, and everyone knelt for the consecration. But what I think did happen was that he said we are to remain standing through Agnus Dei, even after receiving communion, and then sit when the priest sits. Well, I still kneel.

That is correct.

There has never even been any discussion on whether we are to kneel or stand for the consecration. The understanding was that we follow the documents, which say to kneel during the consecration.

Now there are a few parishes without kneelers. No one will kneel in those parishes. Whether they should have been built that way or not is a legitmate discussion to have.

On the advice of then director of the office for Pastoral Liturgy, Fr. J. Glenn Murray, SJ, Bishop Pilla did, as the GIRM allows, declare that the common posture for the reception of Communion in the diocese of Cleveland is standing.

I do not wish to debate the semantics of this issue on this message board again. It is clear to me, as well as it was to Fr. Murray and Bishop Pilla that this provision envisioned standing THROUGHOUT THE COMMUNION RITE and THEN kneeling after the last person has received. As Fr. J Glenn said at the time, “Nothing is being taken away; you are still going to kneel in adoration. But something has been added: A common posture and prayer.”

As has been debated here (needlessly) many times, there are some who believe the provision means they should return to their seat and kneel.

 

[James0235]

How does this work in practice? I understand that everyone remains standing after receiving. But what about before receiving?
Does everyone stand in their pews as soon as the people in the first pew stand to approach the altar to receive? Or do people remain kneeling until enough people before them receive and then stand up and get in line?

Or are people already supposed to be standing and not kneeling when it comes time for communion?

James

 

[brigid12]

Since my age sometimes starts to be felt in my knees and since, knowing what is happening at the consecration, I want to do all I can to kneel for it, I have occasionally prayed to Him that my knees hurt (I know you can offer up the suffering, but I’m a wimp! ). Almost always, after I pray about the pain in my knees, it seems to lessen a lot or even to go away!