Kneeling

[majahnke]

I recently attended Sunday mass at a parish that is more liberal than I am used to. At this parish, there are no kneelers and during the Liturgy of the Eucharist everyone stood instead. However, once we all said, “Lord, I am not worthy to receive You…” everyone sat down. My fiance and I were disturbed and felt compelled to kneel before the Lord. However, we were both aware of the Church’s call for uniformity within a given celebration of the mass. So we were conflicted as to what part of our conscience to listen to: give God His deserved reverence or be uniform within the mass. We chose to kneel and pray as we regularily do and were the only ones in the parish that were doing so. I don’t believe that it caused a great deal of comotion or disturbance. What ought we have done in this situation?

As one of my good friends commented when speaking of those who do not kneel before the Lord, “if God is truly present in the Eucharist, then should he appear visually in His glorified body, it ought to make no significant difference in our demeanor at that time. However, I doubt that anyone who is merely sitting at the time when he would appear would not prostrate themselves immediately!”

Any help offered on this topic is more than welcome. Thank you and God bless.

Mark

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I kneel (sometimes it takes a bit of work to get back up) but I kneel anywhere and everywhere during the Eucharistic prayers and Consecration. I care not what others think, I only care what Christ thinks!

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I kneel, too. Even at my son’s high school graduation Mass which was held in the school auditorium, and no one else knelt but me. It’s an honor to kneel before Christ the King, regardless of what others may do or think.

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Christy_Beth]

I was at a church once in Colorado Springs where they didn’t kneel during the consecration. In fact, they stood until everyone had received communion. This really bothered me. To me it showed a lack of respect for the Lord.

 

[chimakuni]

If you look in the missal, you will see that it instructs the parishioners to kneel during the consecration. My family attended a non kneeler and non kneeling church for years…and we knelt, week in and week out for ten years. It is only right - if those who were not kneeling wish to be out of conformity to what the United States Bishops have agreed upon, then let them. At least this is one area where the Bishops have agreed upon! It seems that the individual pastors are the ones that are out of conformity. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord on our knees during the consecration.

God Bless

 

[Servulus]

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), with approved adaptions for liturgy in the United States, is the norm to be followed. One of those adaptations is as follows:

"This adaptation will be inserted at number 43, paragraph 3:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow while the priest is genuflecting after the consecration. **The faithful kneel at the *Agnus Dei ***unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise."

Hope that helps.

 

[Fortiterinre]

Servulus:

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), with approved adaptions for liturgy in the United States, is the norm to be followed. One of those adaptations is as follows:

"This adaptation will be inserted at number 43, paragraph 3:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow while the priest is genuflecting after the consecration. **The faithful kneel at the *Agnus Dei ***unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise."

Hope that helps.

Excellent post. I travel a lot and always kneel because I am healthy enough to do so and have never been so fenced in by lack of space or other people that I cannot get to my knees.

 

[Charliemac]

I kneel at all the appropriaite times unless there simply isn’t room. A few years ago (2000?) there was a Eucharistic Prcession in Philadelphia. The Eucharist with the Cradinal and several priests kneeling and incensing in adoration were conveyed on a float from the Cathedral to the Art Mueseum and back on the Franklin Parkway. I forget the estimated attendance, but it was a mob, lining both sides of the Parkway. When the float approached a fellow right behind me said to folks he was with, “We should kneel.” I am so glad I heard him, because it migth not have occured to me. I joined them and we knelt as the float passed. There weren’t all that many who did. I was glad I did.

Charliemac

 

[DrCat]

Br. Rich SFO:

I kneel (sometimes it takes a bit of work to get back up) but I kneel anywhere and everywhere during the Eucharistic prayers and Consecration. I care not what others think, I only care what Christ thinks!

I refuse to not kneel at the consecration. I don’t care if everybody else is standing or sitting, I kneel.

I remember many years ago, while visiting my parents in Denver, I went to daily Mass near their house. After the consecration (at which I was the only one kneeling), one of the “regulars” told me they didn’t kneel because it was “more respectful” to stand, “although on Sundays, we kneel like everybody else.” I got the impression that she thought “everybody else” was an uneducated, superstitious mob, while they (the ones who went to daily Mass) were of a higher class.

Every day that I went to Mass at that chapel, I would insist on kneeling at the consecration. I also insisted on arriving early and praying the Rosary before Mass, something that most of the others appeared to think was very old fashioned.

Of course, that was years ago (my parents were both alive - and my mother died over 20 years ago).

Please note that my comments above are based on the tone of voice and the impression that the person taking to me was looking down her nose at the “others”. I might be wrong about the attitudes involved.

John

 

[Hesychios]

I don’t know why Roman Catholic churches are getting away from kneeling, but the Eastern churches DO NOT kneel for a very good reason. It was forbidden in the Council of Trullo.

Now if the Roman Catholic church has recognized this Council, then it would be in violation of an ancient Canon, perhaps some Roman Catholic scholars are aware of that and therefore they are pushing the change.

This is all speculation on my part. All I know is in my Eastern Catholic parish, we do not kneel.

The Quinisext Council or The Council of Trullo

At the end of the seventh century, most likely in 692, a council was held in Constantinople, in the dome room of a palace called Trullo, which made 102 canonical regulations. These canons, some of which were previously included in Justinian’s civil legislation, are called the canons of the Quinisext council which means that they are taken as the canonical rulings of the fifth and sixth ecumenical councils which issued no canonical decrees.

The council of Trullo also put into formal church law some of the early practices of the Church which had no official regulatory expression. For example, these canons formalized the rule according to which married men may be ordained to the diaconate and the presbyterate (priesthood) retaining their wives, but that already ordained deacons and priests may not marry. The council reinforced the law dating from Justinian’s time that only celibates, normally taken from among the monks, may serve in the office of the bishop. This council also set the ages for ordination, and reaffirmed the traditional churchly discipline regarding the clergy, such as their strict exclusion from direct participation in the political, military, and economic affairs of this world.

Liturgical Development

The canons of the Trultan Council clearly decreed that a 40 day period of fasting should preceed Easter, on the week days of which the eucharistic divine liturgy should not be celebrated, but that the liturgy of the presanctified gifts be served (Canon 52). It called for Christians to honor Christ’s resurrection by refraining from penitential kneeling on Sundays (Canon 90). This council forbade laymen from entering the sanctuary of the Church building, and forbid the sacramental marriage of Orthodox Christians with non-Orthodox (Canons 69, 72). It enjoined those who sing in Church to refrain from “undisciplined vociferations” and from using “any melodies which are incongruous and unsuitable for the Church” (Canon 75). It called for the excommunication of people, who for no good reason, miss the liturgy “three consecutive Sundays” (Canon 80). Finally, it called for the “penalty of murder” for those who “give drugs for procuring abortion and those who take them to kill the fetus” (Canon 91).

**
A.D. 692
CANON XC OF THE COUNCIL IN TRULLO
WE have received from our divine Fathers the canon law that in honour of Christ’s resurrection, we are not to kneel on Sundays. Lest therefore we should ignore the fulness of this observance we make it plain to the faithful that after the priests have gone to the Altar for Vespers on Saturdays (according to the prevailing custom) no one shall kneel in prayer until the evening of Sunday, at which time after the entrance for compline, again with bended knees we offer our prayers to the Lord. For taking the night after the Sabbath, which was the forerunner of our Lord’s resurrection, we begin from it to sing in the spirit hymns to God, leading our feast out of darkness into light, and thus during an entire day and night, we celebrate the Resurrection. **

In Christ Always.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Make sure that you keep the clear distinction between a Doctrinal Canon and a Disciplinary Canon intact. One cannot be changed at a later date, the other can.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Servulus:

This adaptation will be inserted at number 43, paragraph 3:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow while the priest is genuflecting after the consecration. **The faithful kneel at the *Agnus Dei ***unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise."

If only number 43, paragraph 4 had also been quoted, we might re-ask and answer the orignal question.

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

GIRM #43​

Now to re-ask: When there is a conflict between the GIRM and the (explicit or implicit) directions of the local authorities, what is one to do? Is it optional? Is it legitimate to disobey the local authorities? Is there a way to know if the local authorities have over-stepped their purview?

tee

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

GIRM #43​

Now to re-ask: When there is a conflict between the GIRM and the (explicit or implicit) directions of the local authorities, what is one to do?

First and formost there should not be a conflict between the two.

The “directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives [must be] according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

Is it optional?

No.

Is it legitimate to disobey the local authorities?

When they are clearly at odds with the official document, issued by the US Bishops (or the Bishops of that country). Excepting of course those specific matters which the document gives the local Bishop authority over.

Is there a way to know if the local authorities have over-stepped their purview?

Ask, the Bishop if necessary.

The issue is what do you do when an liturgical instruction says do “this”? You do “this”. You don’t discuss it at the next liturgy meeting, you don’t analyze it, You don’t ignore it or look for a way around it! You should simply do it. You can “not like it”, “disagree with it”, “write a letter about it”, “complain about it” as long as you do it.

 

[Hesychios]

Br. Rich SFO:

Make sure that you keep the clear distinction between a Doctrinal Canon and a Disciplinary Canon intact. One cannot be changed at a later date, the other can.

That is understood.

I understand and respect the Latin church’s right to change a Canon of an Ecumenical Council for their own purposes, but I haven’t seen any citations as to when this was done in another Ecumenical Council or General Council of the West.

The Canon forbidding kneeling was directing that Sunday would be Resurrection Day, and kneeling was a penitential gesture.

Are there any Papal Bulls or pronouncements dictating a change to kneeling? Were there later Canons that supercede Canon 90 of Trullo? I don’t know, but anyone who wants to defend kneeling on Sunday should produce that information if they want to challenge their bishops or priests on the matter.

If any of you erudite scholars out there have access to that information I would love to learn more about it!

 

[NWUArmyROTC]

My Sophomore year in College I started kneeling at my University Catholic Center. The practice was standing for the prayer, but I thought kneeling to be more respectful and reverential for what is going on in Mass and the more traditional thing. There were only a few of us who knelt, and we knelt.

 

[Mike_C]

Yes, the other poster was correct. We in the Eastern Churches do not kneel. Also, St. Peter’s in Rome, and many of the older churches in Europe do not have kneelers. It is not a sign of disrespect. If you attend one of the Pope’s outdoor Masses there are no kneelers either.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Mike C:

Yes, the other poster was correct. We in the Eastern Churches do not kneel. Also, St. Peter’s in Rome, and many of the older churches in Europe do not have kneelers. It is not a sign of disrespect. If you attend one of the Pope’s outdoor Masses there are no kneelers either.

It is not impossible to kneel at outdoor Masses I do it all the time, even at Papal Masses. However when the Bishops publish a Norm to be followed it should be followed by all within it’s jurisdiction. You kneel at the specified places in all Latin Rite parishes in the US period. If parishes removed the kneelers, then they need to replace them ASAP before any other renovations.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

At school, where there are (regrettably) no kneelers, I have normally acted in the interests of uniformity of gesture by standing with the rest of the worshippers. Now that I see the clear instruction to kneel, I will do so from now on. I generally just get everyone to kneel by doing it first anyway, so there were very rarely Masses at which I would stand.

As for the difference between East and West, I don’t know the specific document or time frame, but my priest did recently give a homily in which he mentioned that the reason we kneel during Mass is in response to a heresy way back in the history of the Church. This could have been around the time of Berengarius, maybe later around the Fourth Lateran Council…I’m not sure. Regardless, he told us that kneeling was considered a direct answer to those who denied the Real Presence. As in, “We’re so sure we are seeing God Himself that we kneel in His Presence.”

 

[Guy]

I am taking a class on symbol and ritual as part of the deacon formation program.

Our instructor told us that kneeling should be proper to the penitential rite since kneeling is a penitential position and standing should be proper to the eucharistic prayer.

 

[pnewton]

I only had one time I didn’t kneel at the consecration. At daily morning Mass, we usually have ont a dozen of so mostly elderly. We hold Mass in a chapel/cry room.

Once, for some strange reason, we had about 25 people show up and I ended up sitting in a rocking chair. There was barely room to sit and no room to kneel, so I had to stand along with some of the elderly who could not kneel. I felt rather silly, but I balanced it by remembering what a good thing it was that we had such large attendance.