Knights of Columbus from Christopher Columbus? Is he a Catholic Saint?

[MommaduckofMany]

I’m not going to sit here and apologize for Columbus just to make a few politically correct liberals feel better. Sorry.

Actually, I happen to be very conservative, tyvm. Please provide proof if you are going to make an accusation. Nothing I stated was Liberal nor politically correct; it’s historical fact rather than white washed stories.

 

[dvdjs]

Yep, in 1492, what he did to N/A’s was viewed as criminal by N/A’s, whose territory he was on. If he had gone in and plundered France the same way, it would have been a crime. Done that to anyone on the seas, he’d be considered a pirate at worst and privateer at best…a criminal or riding the lines thereof.

Nope. If you are talking of alleged atrocities, maybe… But of conquest - not at all. The right of conquest was recognized until the XXth century; the idea of a war crime proscription against a war of aggression - well that was adopted by the UN not until 1974. Just consider the borders in Europe around the time of Columbus? A lot of warfare, aggression and conquest since then.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Actually, I happen to be very conservative, tyvm. Please provide proof if you are going to make an accusation. Nothing I stated was Liberal nor politically correct; it’s historical fact rather than white washed stories.

I was referring to society in general and not one specific individual with the “liberal” accusation. It is political correctness to want to accuse CC of being a horrible person. Again…by the standards of his time he was NOT. He did things that by TODAY’s standards are bad…but by the standards of his own time…not so much. I really don’t want to hear about how bad he treated Native Americans (of whom I am an ancestor) because they weren’t any nicer to themselves. NA’s had slaves, went to war, tortured, and some even practiced human sacrifice…so they really weren’t any better than the Europeans…simply less powerful. So if we’re going to remove the “white wash” then remove all of it.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

I was referring to society in general and not one specific individual with the “liberal” accusation. It is political correctness to want to accuse CC of being a horrible person. Again…by the standards of his time he was NOT. He did things that by TODAY’s standards are bad…but by the standards of his own time…not so much. I really don’t want to hear about how bad he treated Native Americans (of whom I am an ancestor) because they weren’t any nicer to themselves. NA’s had slaves, went to war, tortured, and some even practiced human sacrifice…so they really weren’t any better than the Europeans…simply less powerful. So if we’re going to remove the “white wash” then remove all of it.

You’re an ancestor to N/A’s? Maybe your own grandchildren. Perhaps you meant “descendent of”? No, and the French weren’t kind to each other either, but it still would have been criminal for Columbus to go plunder them. Criminal as in he would have had a price on his head and would have faced fatal consequences. This is according to the laws of his time. He was a man of his time, engaging in criminal activities for his time. His being a horrible person is historical fact, not political correctness.

 

[YADA]

I was referring to society in general and not one specific individual with the “liberal” accusation. It is political correctness to want to accuse CC of being a horrible person. Again…by the standards of his time he was NOT. He did things that by TODAY’s standards are bad…but by the standards of his own time…not so much. I really don’t want to hear about how bad he treated Native Americans (of whom I am an ancestor) because they weren’t any nicer to themselves. NA’s had slaves, went to war, tortured, and some even practiced human sacrifice…so they really weren’t any better than the Europeans…simply less powerful. So if we’re going to remove the “white wash” then remove all of it.

I too have native american ancestry … and today - removing the romanticism and Caucasian guilt - and the practices of my native american ancestors would be found just egregious … eating human flesh was abhorrent 1492 …

And while killing unborn babies is not abhorrent in America by law today - eating dog is

And this injustice is of far more importance then Columbus and whether the KOC should change their name to placate some politically correct agenda

 

[livingwordunity]

My father told me that if, instead of reading the popularized opinions about Christopher Columbus, we read what Christopher Columbus wrote first-hand in his diary it is clear that he was a good man.
Here is the diary: The Diario of Christopher Columbus’s First Voyage to America, 1492-1493

Men can write one thing and do another…many times the writing is to rationalise what evil they’ve done. Sorry, as someone with N/A blood, Columbus was NOT good man. I’d it didn’t happen to your ancestors, then I can see where you’d ignore that party of history. Even worse was his son.

When something in history books is disputed, I would rather examine the first-hand evidence for myself in order to be able to draw my own conclusions based on the actual historical evidence. Do you believe that everything written in history books is always true? There are a lot of popular beliefs that are not true.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Do you believe that everything written in history books is always true?

No, obviously I don’t. In my history books, Columbus was a great guy. In my son’s history book when he was in Catholic high school, Columbus was a great guy. I’ve done plenty of study beyond text books. I actually teach history.

 

[Yerusalyim]

You’re an ancestor to N/A’s? Maybe your own grandchildren. Perhaps you meant “descendent of”? No, and the French weren’t kind to each other either, but it still would have been criminal for Columbus to go plunder them. Criminal as in he would have had a price on his head and would have faced fatal consequences. This is according to the laws of his time. He was a man of his time, engaging in criminal activities for his time. His being a horrible person is historical fact, not political correctness.

Actually, as was already brought out in this post…had Columbus plundered France on behalf of Spain it would have been an act of War and legitimized…unless he lost. And yes, I have NA ANCESTORY…and also four kids that I’m tending to as I write…and making a great Tuscan soup…so lay off.

 

[dvdjs]

Here is a nice article on the subject from first things that counters the PC line:

firstthings.com/article/2008/09/002-the-crimes-of-christopher-columbus-21

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Actually, as was already brought out in this post…had Columbus plundered France on behalf of Spain it would have been an War and legitimized…unless he lost. And yes, I have NA ANCESTORY…and also four kids that I’m tending to as I write…and making a great Tuscan soup…so lay off.

Lay off? You are the one that came up with personal attacks. I’m speaking to historical fact. If you are busy, then go be busy. I have nine children, have them all busy, and an planning our evening meal. I get it. Don’t act like I’ve held you hostage.

 

[livingwordunity]

No, obviously I don’t. In my history books, Columbus was a great guy. In my son’s history book when he was in Catholic high school, Columbus was a great guy. I’ve done plenty of study beyond text books. I actually teach history.

So, because you say that you teach history I’m supposed to believe that you are infallible and trust you above all historians who disagree with you? I would rather trust the actual historical evidence of what Christopher Columbus wrote first-hand in his diary.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

So, because you say that you teach history I’m supposed to believe that you are infallible and trust you above all other historians?

No, it simply means that I’m not ignorant and have read both sides…not teacher manuals, not text books…I’ve read a variety of sources outside of politically correct and white washed sources.

 

[livingwordunity]

No, it simply means that I’m not ignorant and have read both sides…not teacher manuals, not text books…I’ve read a variety of sources outside of politically correct and white washed sources.

So, you admit that you aren’t infallible. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

So, you admit that you aren’t infallible. Thanks for clarifying that.

I never said I was. It was implied that I had read limited, one sided sources. No, I always read both sides and teach both sides. I don’t believe in being politically correct or white washing.

 

[livingwordunity]

I never said I was. It was implied that I had read limited, one sided sources. No, I always read both sides and teach both sides. I don’t believe in being politically correct or white washing.

Today’s politically correct version of Christopher Columbus says that he was a bad man. It is now politically incorrect to say otherwise. The Catholic Church and Catholic schools teach the politically incorrect version of history.

 

[dvdjs]

My protestant cousin just studied him at her homeschool with her children and they learned he was Not a good guy.

I know about the Knights of Columbus and wondered if they’re connected to him and wonder if he’s considered a Catholic Saint.

In my history books, Columbus was a great guy. In my son’s history book when he was in Catholic high school, Columbus was a great guy. I’ve done plenty of study beyond text books. I actually teach history.

I’m not ignorant and have read both sides…not teacher manuals, not text books…I’ve read a variety of sources outside of politically correct and white washed sources.

This threaded seemed to have been piqued by “my Protestant cousin” at “homeschool”, then morphs to "plenty of study " by an actual teacher of history.

Anyway, it has bee clarified that The KoC is connected to him -as any internet search would have quickly revealed, and that he is not a Catholic Saint. Maybe that’ s it?

Jabs against the CC are consistent, however. Like the home school plan and certification, I would love to see evidence of the the Catholic school books/lessons that talk of Columbus as a “great guy”.

 

[YADA]

No, it simply means that I’m not ignorant and have read both sides…not teacher manuals, not text books…I’ve read a variety of sources outside of politically correct and white washed sources.

Funny how you discussed Columbus’ arrest but not his being released … the records of the complaints, arrest and inquiry are well documented … and of course this involved a power struggle in addition to the real and imagined abuses …

Odd how you discount what Columbus wrote in his diaries … when historically speaking - diaries are highly prised … or is it just Columbus’ diary that is suspect … every writer of a diary writes from their personal perspective, observation and lens … which of course is true for every diary of the day that one can appeal to …in discerning the fact around the life and times of Columbus - jealously, power struggles and all - told from the writers pespective

And in the context of the society from which Columbus arose from poor obscurity to prominence - he was not unusually cruel of evil …

which - if I might illustrate for you a contrast - Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin were all evil murdering maniacs - and judged so in their day - by the people of their day and in the mores of their day … they were evil in the 20th century - not the 25th or 26th century - judged according to the mores of a time centuries later …

Some of the natives of the western hemisphere practiced slavery …
Some of the natives of the western hemisphere warred against their neighbors and took territory in conquest …
Some of the natives of the western hemisphere still were practicing human sacrifice to appease their gods …
Some of the natives of the western hemisphere consumed human flesh and body parts - ritually …
They ate dog [do not tell the PETA people - because in today’s america this will get you jail time]

In my view - if you want to judge the peoples of 1492 Europe by today’s standards - that is your choice … However, when you impose that upon me - then I am highly offended that cannibalism and human sacrifice are ignored and the peoples who practiced them are viewed as “noble”

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Today’s politically correct version of Christopher Columbus says that he was a bad man. It is now politically incorrect to say otherwise. The Catholic Church and Catholic schools teach the politically incorrect version of history.

Actually, they teach a white washed version.

“A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand.” Columbus

Columbus was arrested in 1500 due to complaints over his activities. He was later pardoned. Obviously, he wasn’t above par even for his own times.

 

[MommaduckofMany]

Funny how you discussed Columbus’ arrest but not his being released … the records of the complaints, arrest and inquiry are well documented … and of course this involved a power struggle in addition to the real and imagined abuses …

Odd how you discount what Columbus wrote in his diaries … when historically speaking - diaries are highly prised … or is it just Columbus’ diary that is suspect … every writer of a diary writes from their personal perspective, observation and lens … which of course is true for every diary of the day that one can appeal to …in discerning the fact around the life and times of Columbus - jealously, power struggles and all - told from the writers pespective

And in the context of the society from which Columbus arose from poor obscurity to prominence - he was not unusually cruel of evil …

which - if I might illustrate for you a contrast - Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin were all evil murdering maniacs - and judged so in their day - by the people of their day and in the mores of their day … they were evil in the 20th century - not the 25th or 26th century - judged according to the mores of a time centuries later …

Some of the natives of the western hemisphere practiced slavery …
Some of the natives of the western hemisphere warred against their neighbors and took territory in conquest …
Some of the natives of the western hemisphere still were practicing human sacrifice to appease their gods …
Some of the natives of the western hemisphere consumed human flesh and body parts - ritually …
They ate dog [do not tell the PETA people - because in today’s america this will get you jail time]

In my view - if you want to judge the peoples of 1492 Europe by today’s standards - that is your choice … However, when you impose that upon me - then I am highly offended that cannibalism and human sacrifice are ignored and the peoples who practiced them are viewed as “noble”

This is post #38…where prior to post #38 did I mention Columbus’ arrest? In fact, you mentioned it before I did (I mention it in #39).

Judging by European and Christian standards. They did many things in the Americas that they NEVER would have done had they been in an European country…DURING THAT TIME PERIOD (NOT by today’s standards).

 

[GKC]

No, it simply means that I’m not ignorant and have read both sides…not teacher manuals, not text books…I’ve read a variety of sources outside of politically correct and white washed sources.

Wide reading is always advisable.

GKC